Feeling guilty

[Pmf27]

I think it's great that you have been building up her confidence slowly. But take this behaviour from the horse as information that for whatever reason, she did not feel comfortable with what was being asked of her today. Maybe she was trigger stacked, maybe she was in season, maybe she saw something threatening in the distance that you missed. Horses are scientifically incapable of being 'naughty' - there is always a legitimate reason for behaviour.

'Pushing a horse past it' can be a form of punishment. If the horse is very scared and you escalate pressure using your legs, whip etc, and the horse finally moves forward, it may only be because your energy is more scary to them than the thing which made them nap in the first place. A lot of people do use this 'technique' to train horses to hack out alone, my ultimately it leads to an emotionally volatile horse, who could explode at any moment.

It's true that horses can associate certain locations with certain things, and as above, you want those associations to be as positive as possible. This might mean turning around and going back for a bit, before doing a U-turn and heading away from the yard again. Or as others have said, getting off and leading for a bit. The main thing is to make it all as positive as possible. If you try to force a horse to move forward in a sticky spot, their memory of that spot might become 'the spot in which I get whipped and kicked'. Which will certainly cause the horse to freeze up and panic.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't challenge the behaviour, but it should be a two way conversation rather than a dictatorship. Your horse says 'I'm scared and want to go back', you might say 'Okay, let's go back until we get to that tree, then I'll get off and lead you where I want us to go on the ground'.

Unfortunately, the horse's owner is projecting anthropomorphic traits onto her mare. Horses do not have a frontal lobe of the brain which means they cannot reason or plan to be naughty. The idea of a naughty horse goes against basic biology. I understand the pressure this must make you feel though, especially if the horse's owner is very heavy handed with her. I would not be able to share/part loan a horse with someone who had a very different mindset to me in this way. And I appreciate the struggle, because like I said, hitting horses is extremely normalised.

I'm not sure what else to suggest, but I would like to say that I think it's very positive you started this thread. The way you handled the situation felt off to you and you wanted to know if there is another way. As above, I think that trust between human and equine is a huge element of horsemanship, and one you can't really train or manufacture. It has to come with time, and small steps, like any genuine friendship.

Thank you again, I'll take on board what you have said about the positive associations. I have not thought of that so much as not letting a certain location be the "napping spot", but I realise now that you are right in that I may accidentally make her afraid of certain situations if I push too hard when she naps.

On this occasion, it didn't feel safe to dismount and lead, but I think next time I'll try that before it escalates to that point. We had been locked in a battle of wills for so long (about 10/15 mins, which felt like an age!) that we were both het up come the end of it, so next time I'll keep this in mind and not let it get that far.

I hope that there isn't a next time, but if I have learnt anything with horses is that there is always a next time haha

 

[Pmf27]

One thing I have found effective with a horse refused to go forward from the leg - is a clear voice aid.

Oh my goodness, would you believe this was the one thing I let fall by the wayside? ??‍

I'm just thinking back and realise there was lots of "come onnnnnn" and exasperatedly saying her name, but I don't think I gave a confident "WALK ON" once the napping had started.

Gosh, it's like amateur hour.

 

[FestiveG]

Another thing that unstick a sticky horse, is a noise, so reins slapped on a wax jacket arm can get forward movement

 

[Birker2020]

What worked with one of mine was reversing him in the direction I wanted to go in. So we were going in the direction I wanted...but backwards. Every 10 metres or so, I would check whether he wanted to go forwards in the correct direction yet, & if he didn't, we carried on reversing until he did. Might be worth a try & didn't involve being forceful.

That always worked with mine too. Just be careful not to check too much with your hands whilst using a strong leg aid as it could encorage some to rear.

I personally don't believe in getting off a horse unless the situation is dire but I'm thinking that and having my prevous horse in mind. That would have been a big no in my eyes but i recognise all horses are different.

 

[Marigold4]

So let's break down what happened here...

The horse was napping because he/she didn't feel safe and comfortable on their own with you. Horses are prey animals and it is not natural for them to be away from their herd. It takes a lot of time and patience for a horse to gain the trust and sense of safety with their person, and for this to feel okay to them.

What you did when the horse tried to express their fear, was kick, hit and yank - you physically punished the horse for their 'disobedience'. Is this how you would react to a scared dog? Or to a child?

The horse was not 'throwing a paddy', the horse was above their emotional threshold and did not feel safe with you. Horses have no concept of 'winning', their number one instinct is survival. Napping/spinning/running for home is a survival instinct when a horse feels they are in danger.

You feel bad because you know that you physically forced and punished the horse for not doing what you wanted. If you want to have a genuine and respectful relationship with this horse, go right back to the basics with them.

Start by walking out in hand and see how they feel on the ground. A lot of horses feel safer when you're stood next to them - they can easily forget that you are on their back. Just go a short way if needed, and then loop back before the horse gets overwhelmed. Keep it all really positive so the horse is having a good experience too. They won't want to go out with you if hacking = this is where I get whipped and kicked in the ribs. Once you're able to do a full 'hack' in hand, try doing the same mounted. Just a short way and then back. Or back and forth to the same spot a few times.

If the horse gets nervous or nappy at all, dismount, walk until they seem calmer, and then get back on again. If at any point it is starting to feel like a 'battle', go back home. Once again, you want to build up positive associations only.

Remember that horses trigger stack - if a few scary things happen to them in a row, it could push them over the edge. E.g. a rustle in the hedges followed by a loud engine and let's say the girth is rubbing a bit...then a crisp packet blows across the road, and suddenly you have the horse exploding with anxiety.

Just try to put yourself in her shoes and imagine how she must have felt to be this stressed out. I think a horse really has to trust you to feel safe hacking out alone, and that can takes months, if not years to fine-tune. If this horse is used to being punished by the owner, maybe they also have bad associations and memories of this activity.

I will say this - physical punishment is normalised in the horse world. This is how most people would react to this situation, because it is what we are taught from a young age...but there are other ways, and it is possible to have a genuine relationship and trust with a horse, which is not based on dominance and fear.

My number 1. rule with horses is to set them up for success. That means recognising what their boundaries are and incrementally increasing them within a parameter which means that they are under threshold enough to actually learn from the experience. A fearful, explosive horse will not learn anything, other than that they had a bad time with you. I would go right back to the basics with this mare and make hacking out a fun, chill experience for both of you. Good luck.

Absolutely brilliant advice.

 

[southerncomfort]

Another thing that unstick a sticky horse, is a noise, so reins slapped on a wax jacket arm can get forward movement

Yes this definitely works. I had to do it with mine the other day when he didn't want to leave his hacking buddy.

Also, if it doesn't feel safe to get off try spinning the horse round on a tight circle making sure that you end up facing the way you want to go.

As long as the horse is facing the way you want to go just leave him be and reward even the tiniest forward movement.

If you're on FB Warwick Schiller was recently asked what to do with a napping horse.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

Yes, she is definitely used to turning around and, actually, I think she rarely does the long circulars.

I'll ask some of the others on the yard if they can advise me of a suitable route, as I'm not sure where I'd take her for a smaller route that isn't all roadwork.

For now, I would do circular all roadwork routes until you get over this turning round business, which she has been trained to do. She needs retraining in that respect.

 

[Pmf27]

For now, I would do circular all roadwork routes until you get over this turning round business, which she has been trained to do. She needs retraining in that respect.

Thank you for the advice, I'll speak to our trainer and see if this is something that they can work on with us as well. Maybe even coming for a hack with us on the ground to assess the situation as they would if it was a lesson.

 

[maya2008]

Either
A) Wait it out.
Or
B) Get off and lead for a while. Then get back on and see how it goes. Maybe it was just a particularly scary tree/bush/funky flower. If she’s going where you want, even with you on the ground, you’ve succeeded. If necessary, lead most of the way home until she realises she’s nearly home and you can get on and ride the rest of the way.

 

[Flowerofthefen]

My now retired wb napped. He is 17.1 built like a tank. I read about a famous sj who always took a book out with him with the nappy ones. As soon as the horse started napping he would stand it still, get his book out and read. The horsevwas only allowed to move in the direction it was supposed to br going!! I didn't take a book with me but I applied the stand still and only going the way we were supposed to be going thing and it worked a treat. No leg, no voice just massive praise when he moved off. It only took that one session after a good few years of trying other stuff!

 

[Caol Ila]

Horsemanship is really hard. Despite being a treeless, bitless, barefoot hippy these days, I don't actually think you should back off, get off, etc. every time a horse says, "I'm not sure." Too much waffle can make a horse even more insecure. And while I don't believe that horses act "naughty" just to pi$$ you off, they can learn unwanted behaviours as well as wanted ones, if you have inadvertantly reinforced the former.

At the same time, there are times when you definitely should back off or change your plan and not get into a fight with the horse. Being too harsh and antagonistic also makes a horse insecure.

Knowing the difference comes down to what people call "feel." Sometimes, if the horse says, "I'm not sure," you can firm up the aids a wee bit, ride forwards, with confidence, and say, "No, horsey, you are brave, and we can definitely walk past that scary thing." And they will. At other times, that is not going to work, and you don't want it to escalate. Then you try other things, like the suggestions in this thread.

One thing to keep in mind is that horses function in the now. Only the now. They definitely don't know your plan for any given ride. You have more executive brain function. Use it. You ride out, and your horse starts napping and working itself into a state. You don't want to get off or turn around the second he spins or stops. That tells the horse, "Whenever I'm a bit anxious, I will get into a less scary situation if I spin and then I'll feel better." Not what you want. That's what I mean by reinforcing. Now you know that you're not going to have your hour-long hack, but you can still reinforce vaguely cooperative behaviour. You just have to figure out, at speed, what your horse is capable of at that moment. If you can get him to walk forwards for two steps, do that. If you can ask for reinback and he does it, do that. If you can get him to turn in a controlled circle, do that. Doesn't matter. Once your anxious horse makes an effort to respond to your aids, then you get off or turn around. You're still listening to him and taking him away from a scary thing, but you've reinforced listening to you instead of purely reacting to a scary thing.

 

[Cortez]

I don't think you should waste any time feeling guilty at all. Nappy ponies/horses are a pain in the ar$e and need judicious and firm handling (unless they are genuinely frightened, which then isn't napping). I have had several horses to sort out with this behaviour (all of them from the UK, now I think about it; hmmm.....) and all of them have received a swift and effective metaphoric boot up the ar$e.

 

[Ratface]

I don't think you should waste any time feeling guilty at all. Nappy ponies/horses are a pain in the ar$e and need judicious and firm handling (unless they are genuinely frightened, which then isn't napping). I have had several horses to sort out with this behaviour (all of them from the UK, now I think about it; hmmm.....) and all of them have received a swift and effective metaphoric boot up the ar$e.

Cortez, may I respectfully ask what the " metaphoric boot up the ar$e" was? Do/did you use different metaphorical boots for different types of napping?

 

[Cortez]

Cortez, may I respectfully ask what the " metaphoric boot up the ar$e" was? Do/did you use different metaphorical boots for different types of napping?

Whack on the bum, with nuances. Shock/ horror.....

 

[Pmf27]

I don't think you should waste any time feeling guilty at all. Nappy ponies/horses are a pain in the ar$e and need judicious and firm handling (unless they are genuinely frightened, which then isn't napping). I have had several horses to sort out with this behaviour (all of them from the UK, now I think about it; hmmm.....) and all of them have received a swift and effective metaphoric boot up the ar$e.

Thank you. My instructor shares the same opinion, almost word for word! Haha

 

[Pmf27]

Horsemanship is really hard. Despite being a treeless, bitless, barefoot hippy these days, I don't actually think you should back off, get off, etc. every time a horse says, "I'm not sure." Too much waffle can make a horse even more insecure. And while I don't believe that horses act "naughty" just to pi$$ you off, they can learn unwanted behaviours as well as wanted ones, if you have inadvertantly reinforced the former.

At the same time, there are times when you definitely should back off or change your plan and not get into a fight with the horse. Being too harsh and antagonistic also makes a horse insecure.

Knowing the difference comes down to what people call "feel." Sometimes, if the horse says, "I'm not sure," you can firm up the aids a wee bit, ride forwards, with confidence, and say, "No, horsey, you are brave, and we can definitely walk past that scary thing." And they will. At other times, that is not going to work, and you don't want it to escalate. Then you try other things, like the suggestions in this thread.

One thing to keep in mind is that horses function in the now. Only the now. They definitely don't know your plan for any given ride. You have more executive brain function. Use it. You ride out, and your horse starts napping and working itself into a state. You don't want to get off or turn around the second he spins or stops. That tells the horse, "Whenever I'm a bit anxious, I will get into a less scary situation if I spin and then I'll feel better." Not what you want. That's what I mean by reinforcing. Now you know that you're not going to have your hour-long hack, but you can still reinforce vaguely cooperative behaviour. You just have to figure out, at speed, what your horse is capable of at that moment. If you can get him to walk forwards for two steps, do that. If you can ask for reinback and he does it, do that. If you can get him to turn in a controlled circle, do that. Doesn't matter. Once your anxious horse makes an effort to respond to your aids, then you get off or turn around. You're still listening to him and taking him away from a scary thing, but you've reinforced listening to you instead of purely reacting to a scary thing.

Thank you for this, that's really helpful! I think I have definitely fallen into the trap of "oh no this is ruining the plan" so it's handy to have an idea that, next time, I too can work in the here and now and try to take smaller steps.

I like to think on this occasion there was a bit of this at play, in that I had eventually managed to get her forwards enough to turn around when I decided, but I like what you said about just being able to do something completely different and know that she's listening to my aids in that respect.

 

[Pmf27]

My now retired wb napped. He is 17.1 built like a tank. I read about a famous sj who always took a book out with him with the nappy ones. As soon as the horse started napping he would stand it still, get his book out and read. The horsevwas only allowed to move in the direction it was supposed to br going!! I didn't take a book with me but I applied the stand still and only going the way we were supposed to be going thing and it worked a treat. No leg, no voice just massive praise when he moved off. It only took that one session after a good few years of trying other stuff!

Ha! I do currently have multiple books on the go and rarely get round to finishing them, maybe I'll keep a book tucked inside my body protector going forwards...

 

[Barton Bounty]

Id have just sat it out as splashgirl said, quietly and just encourage her to go forward any movement is a bonus. My boy was terrible and I was on my own from the beginning so I used food. Treat for walking on and just quiet and calm

 

[Winters100]

I really dislike napping, and in my opinion it needs to be swiftly nipped in the bud by a sharp smack on the bum. Maybe try carrying a long whip, flicking it when you feel the horse half thinking about napping, and if this does not give them enough of a reminder go ahead and give him a smack. For me getting off and leading would not be an option unless I felt that I was in real danger..

I understand that some feel that the horse was perhaps afraid, but I am assuming that this is not a youngster, that he has been hacked in the past, so my assessment would be that he is just trying to see if he can be the boss. You need to remind him that this is not the case.

I am all for being gentle with animals, and considering their feelings, but actually there does come a point where you just have to tell them 'no'.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I am all for being gentle with animals, and considering their feelings, but actually there does come a point where you just have to tell them 'no'.

I agree but OP said that she eventually allowed the horse to turn round. Getting off and leading in the direction that she intended to go would have been preferable, imo.

 

[Lois Lame]

I don't think this mare was unsure. I think when she thought she'd had enough of an outing, she decided it was time to turn back.

 

[SOS]

My current horse was once impossible to hack alone. He would lose confidence, spin and tank off. And he isn’t small!

We slowly built up his confidence (getting him walking in front of other horses, hacking around the fields at home) but the absolute key was not letting him get behind the leg. Have him walking into the bridle anyway, and as soon as you use a leg aid and he doesn’t react, get him moving forward, trot/canter if needed! He also would tense up down one rein, if he did this I would relax that rein (I couldn’t fight him even if I wanted too!) and use my leg to push him into the other rein and into that contact. It’s hard to explain but try riding inside leg to outside hand in a straight line and keep changing the outside hand. That feeling.

If he does nap now, my first effort is to get him to stand still and think, which when they want to run off is not always easy. But relax, get them to stand and relax your reins. Ideally you’d do this until they show signs of relaxing (big sigh, licking lips). Then I turn him the right way, give him an over the top pat on the neck and when he’s relaxed ask him to move forward.

I will use my crop to back up my leg aid if he is feeling like he may nap but I do not use it once the nap is happening. It just adds fuel to their “panic fire”.

 

[Pmf27]

My current horse was once impossible to hack alone. He would lose confidence, spin and tank off. And he isn’t small!

We slowly built up his confidence (getting him walking in front of other horses, hacking around the fields at home) but the absolute key was not letting him get behind the leg. Have him walking into the bridle anyway, and as soon as you use a leg aid and he doesn’t react, get him moving forward, trot/canter if needed! He also would tense up down one rein, if he did this I would relax that rein (I couldn’t fight him even if I wanted too!) and use my leg to push him into the other rein and into that contact. It’s hard to explain but try riding inside leg to outside hand in a straight line and keep changing the outside hand. That feeling.

If he does nap now, my first effort is to get him to stand still and think, which when they want to run off is not always easy. But relax, get them to stand and relax your reins. Ideally you’d do this until they show signs of relaxing (big sigh, licking lips). Then I turn him the right way, give him an over the top pat on the neck and when he’s relaxed ask him to move forward.

I will use my crop to back up my leg aid if he is feeling like he may nap but I do not use it once the nap is happening. It just adds fuel to their “panic fire”.

Thank you for this, those are some good tips I've not thought of. I'll definitely try the inside leg to outside rein, that sounds like a great way to keep her listening as well!

I'd not thought of the crop adding fuel to the "panic fire" but that makes sense, it certainly wasn't working anyway so I'll not continue using it next time if she is mid-nap.

 

[Cortez]

Thank you for this, those are some good tips I've not thought of. I'll definitely try the inside leg to outside rein, that sounds like a great way to keep her listening as well!

I'd not thought of the crop adding fuel to the "panic fire" but that makes sense, it certainly wasn't working anyway so I'll not continue using it next time if she is mid-nap.

Most people don't know how to use a whip properly. They either beat the horse with it (not what it's for, and both unethical and counter productive) or sort of flap at the horse, which is ineffectual and/or frightening.

Many people don't appear to know how to use a lot of the equipment associated with riding and training, including, but not limited to: the reins, the bits, their own legs, acres of straps of various purposes, spurs, whips, nosebands, lunging, etc.