FIELDS! A YO verses livery perspective

ester said:
But oddly the only people I know that do have their own land are continuing to turn out and will also manage and maintain their own land (we graze and take a hay crop off of ours so not dock/ragwort infested :p. (this comment does come with the proviso that people's fields in different parts of the country are different!... though those I know are mostly on the somerset levels or flat lincolnshire :p).

Our winter paddock number one got very wet so they moved at christmas, onto a paddock that hasn't been grazed since the hay crop was taken in July (so a good foot or so of grass cover to protect the ground).

and whoever said that in a dry stable with a haynet was better than horses than a muddy field I really cannot get my head round that as a concept!

fwiw though OP if I was at yours I'd likely walk to the other field to bring in, or would use the concrete yard.. but only if that was for a limited time (ie not until spring) only because my lad needs to be moving about as much as poss.
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Our horses live at home, we are quite used to managing our land, including getting rid of any weeds - I recommend sheep for this. We are certainly not in the wettest part of the country, being at the top of the Pennines, but our land is, of course, wetter than usual. Our horses have to walk through mud in the gateway but are certainly not standing in mud all day. We don't take hay off our fields as we don't have enough spare grass and for a number of reasons, which have little to do with the weather, the horses are not out 12 hrs daily, as in previous yrs but are out for about 8 hrs. I would not want them to be inside eating all day, I much prefer them to lose weight over the winter, which they do whilst picking at whatever grass they can find. Being out also gives them the chance to interact with each other and their neighbours, which can only be beneficial.
 
I have already posted pictures of our fields on another thread.
We have more horses to land but we always have two fields resting one is damaged in the gateways but i will not be moving them till the wet weather we are having finishes. Our land always recovers well my liveries always respect my running of the yard never get moody. I turnout every day regardless, we are lucky they do recover with good land management we have.

I would not put up with liveries getting huffy or disrespecting my decisions. Most of mine are part liveries all the terms are spelled out before. Can't remember have you got any fields resting at the moment???
 
I'm lucky as I own my land,but have the same problem as the poster, so my 3 boys are on 1 paddock and my mare in the 2nd paddock and they have trashed them badly,but if I put them in the other paddocks I'd have no grass come the spring and it is going to cost me a fair few pennies to get the two paddocks right hopefully for next winter, mine go out during the day between 10am-3pm and stabled at night and with the mud about I'm lucky none has gone down with mud fever.So liveries should look more to the summer when they want 24/7 turn out and have grazing or 24/7 turn out and still feeding hay, which is it to be or just buy their own land and end up with the same problem as poster.:):)
 
Noobs I think the OP has a very good solution.

My 'histrionics' were in reaction to your statement that "NH" has done untold damage in producing a shedload of novices with the mantra "turnout is good". I feel my reaction was proportional to the sweeping generalisation made in your post.

My fatwah is none of your business and anyway my wah is not fat, it is big boned, so leave it alone :mad: :p
 
I've been on livery where only the YO horses were allowed grazing from 5th November to Easter every year. The 40+ liveries were restricted to using the one 40x20 arena or a small 10x10 sand turnout pen - in half hour booked slots - although we had been promised full year turnout. It was grossly unfair and most liveries were upset. We moved as soon as we could, difficult as most other yards didn't even have the turnout pen. But by that time my horse had already had 5 months box rest due to injury from throwing himself about on his limited turnout. He has never wanted to be in since and stressed out whenever he had to be in even just overnight.
Since we bought our own land I have an excess of grass in summer, and until this year they had been able to stay out 14/7 summer and winter, except for laminitic who goes in woodchip paddock. Now, despite there still being sufficient grass for my 5 to pick at in their winter field they are waiting at the gate by 4:30 every day to come in and I am bringing in even if it is dry and mild. The field is not completely boggy but is getting deep mud in the gateways and on the tracks. So, knowing of one pony that has pulled a ligament in the mud last month, one friend's horse having splitting hooves from the constant soaking and several with mud fever or abcesses resulting in box rest I think it is more sensible to have them all come in with restricted turnout.

I wouldn't ever have them in full time though unless it was for veterinary reasons.
 
Just go off on one - shouting you ungrateful liveries - if you dont like it leave..... start throwing things around - switch lights off when folk are using them to muck out - complain if anyone uses water for anything but drinking limit them to topping up waters.... not emptying them away - no hay soaking - no washing of hooves.... be bloody rude and unreasonable - they will then love you for ever and think you are ace !

p.s I was at a yard as described above for more years than I can remember and we even used to listen to a lecture about how stupid we were to pay him money when we thought we were all lardy dar with our horses....
 
Those who restrict turnout over with a few days staying in, do you not find when they do go out, they tear it up more than if they just went out for a few hours everyday?
 
Moobucket said:
Yes I have two glorious fields (7 and 4 acres) just waiting for spring. Green as you like and smooth as a babys bottom ;).
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Well then you are doing everything right our resting field also is smooth. The horses will not be moving across until then. My parts are fully understanding as its in their interest not to trash another field.

maybe you ought to rid this lot and get some part liveries in. More money for you and you can start again with new rules:D.

This is one reason I WILL not do grass liveries



horses trashing fields 24.7
me spending a fortune on land for little to no money.
poo covered fields.
 
M&S ChristNatch said:
Noobs I think the OP has a very good solution.

My 'histrionics' were in reaction to your statement that "NH" has done untold damage in producing a shedload of novices with the mantra "turnout is good". I feel my reaction was proportional to the sweeping generalisation made in your post.

My fatwah is none of your business and anyway my wah is not fat, it is big boned, so leave it alone :mad: :p
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PMSL! That made me laugh out so loud the cat left the sofa!

My YO is very fussy about fields and the yard in general, to the point where he won't let ChristmasStyle from here tip her water bucket out infront of her stable - she has been told to carry it to the hedge and tip it out! Very OTT admittedly, but that's his funny little way, and I respect it, as he wants to maintain a nice clean yard.

He is very fussy about muddy fields, and we get moved about a fair bit, and this year he has told us we are on limited turn out (one day in one day out, or half days each day), which is a pain in the buttocks, but I have to say I really do respect it, and I prefer to see a YO look after and maintain the grazing to the best of their ability, rather than some of these big livery yards that have horses swimming in ten foot of mud with owners trailing along behind on their stomachs trying to hold onto the leadrope!
 
Gingerwitch said:
Just go off on one - shouting you ungrateful liveries - if you dont like it leave..... start throwing things around - switch lights off when folk are using them to muck out - complain if anyone uses water for anything but drinking limit them to topping up waters.... not emptying them away - no hay soaking - no washing of hooves.... be bloody rude and unreasonable - they will then love you for ever and think you are ace !

p.s I was at a yard as described above for more years than I can remember and we even used to listen to a lecture about how stupid we were to pay him money when we thought we were all lardy dar with our horses....
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Lol. I'm getting the eccentric yard owner act honed to perfection. Is that horse pawwing at my arena surface......??????!!?!?! Kaboom and in to orbit :p;):D
 
I've always been a great believer that horses should go out every day, regardless of weather. I wouldn't go to a yard that did not let me turn out every day. However.... This year's weather has been absolutely atrocious. The last time I remember weather like this was 12 years ago, and my mare who lived out got horrific mud fever. I still turn mine out every day, but they stand at the gate staring balefully at me til I get them back in again. They don't want to be out, even though they have grass and hay to eat - guess they don't like the wet conditions. So, I don't think it's unreasonable for you to restrict turnout for the time being - it is exceptional circumstances this year, and everyone's in the same boat. I know the extra cost of hay/feed/straw/shavings is unwelcome, but IMO you have to factor these unexpected and unavoidable things in when you have horses. Hopefully we'll get a good dry spell and normal service can be resumed - I won't hold my breath though!!
 
arh but when the horse is standing in for 12 weeks after doing some extensive ligament damage... it will be a darn sight cheaper in the long run ! or the treatment for mud fever - if you need antibiotics and have to keep the horse in for a few weeks till it heals.... well that comes free surely?
 
Usually these threads drive me mad, but actually most people sound quite sensible this time and realise that even well managed land suffers in extreme weather. We will be lucky to get a tractor on the fields to roll and harrow it unless they dry out a lot!

We have 16 acres for two horses and can't even get them out as its so wet. We have a hardcore area and the concrete yard that they go out on all day with haylage nets dotted around, and they go in the field one or two afternoons a week. It seems to suit them well.

We have sheep on this winter to try and eat down the excess grass we have, as the horses have spent all summer in muzzles and small paddocks while the rest goes to seed, they are such good doers. Even the sheep are sinnking in and churning it up this year!

Lets all do a sun dance and pray it gets better! I would actually relish some ice and snow for a change. Although you can remind me of that when it happens!!
 
JustFindingTheDecorations said:
It is a lot easier to offer decent amounts of turnout in certain parts of the country where there has been less rain (this year), or where the soil and drainage is less dire. We're on clay and the fields are just vile. I stabled all mine during the worst of it. I now have one back out 24/7- one of the others is on a yard where t/o has been restricted in fields, but has an indoor so gets t/o in there as well as lots of work. The final pony thinks fencing doesn't apply to him, so he's stuck in for his own safety until I can work out a fencing solution for him :cool: It's far from ideal, but what can you do? I have two horses on three acres at my place and didn't feel I could turnout during the worst of the weather without trashing it. It really is that bad.
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^^^ Wise words.

The comments by liveries often show a complete lack of understanding for the issues faced by YOs. Many seem to want what is completely unrealistic at minimal cost - very few of us are YOs due to the financial returns achieved, it's a lifestyle business and the margins are often tight.

As we all know 2012 was one of the wettest years ever however some parts of the country have suffered more than others and so I suspect some of the comments have come from liveries in parts of the country which have better draining soils and have possibily had a little less rain than some of us.

I don't offer DIY livery so don't suffer the problems some do with getting liveries to bring horses in a specific times. I like the horses to get out each day whenever possible but as we live in a notoriously wet area with clay soil we have never offered 24/7 turnout over the winter however normally do daily turnout. We do offer 24/7 turnout in the summer but our summer tends to be shorter than in other parts of the country and my liveries understand this.

This system has worked well for us up until last winter. The summer of 2011 wasn't brilliant but we went into the winter in our normal routine however it proved to be a very wet winter even by our standards and by February for the first time ever in the 24 years we have been here we had to restrict turnout and operate a rota system. Even with that sorting the fields cost us in the region £2500. However as everyone knows summer 2012 was atrocious and with no respite we went straight into the permanent monsoon that is the current winter. In other words we have had 18 months of exceptionally wet weather - the drought experienced by Southern England at the start of 2012 certainly wasn't evident up here. This has obviously had a huge impact on us and by November we had to introduce a turnout rota again. We have 3 main herd groups so our horses currently get out every 3rd day for 5 - 6 hours and on the days they are in they get turned out in the indoor or outdoor school or go on the walker (at no extra charge). The only exception is the youngsters who I try to get out every day with a quiet pony companion. They have all adjusted well and don't run round any more than usual on their days out. As we don't do DIY the extra forage and bedding is paid for by us and we adjust short feed to reflect the change in routine as necessary.

From reading some replies here I think I'm lucky my liveries all understand the need for what we are doing and know there is little choice. Every other yard in the area faces the same problems so they wouldn't be any better off moving and in most cases would be worse off as some yards have no winter turnout at all.

I fully appreciate YOs aren't perfect but many of us are doing the best we can. If you pay £25 per week it really doesn't go far when you take into consideration insurance, rates, electricity, water rates, repairs and maintenance of fences, stables and schools etc - add to that a considerable sum to resurect fields and I suspect many yards would run at a loss. The bad weather is nobody's fault and needs both YOs and liveries to be understanding in what are undoubtedly difficult times.
 
Ive got sole let of around 8 acres between 2 fields and stabling for 3 horses, ive also got an arena i could use for turnout, but prefer not to.
The rain has been relentless here, but luckily no major floding, and even though on paper i have more than enough grazing, ive limited my guys to being out 9-2 each day, because of this ive a pretty muddy area at the gates but the rest of the winter field is still in fairly good condition,hopefully when the rain beggars off elsewhere my turnout time will increase onto what is still relatively good grazing due to the measures ive taken.
My personal preference is limited time every day as opposed to longer time on alternate days, this IMO ends up with the horses charging around to blow off steam and causes more damage to grass and horses in the long run.
TBH i think its been hard all round for liveries and yard owners because of the weather and like it or not comprimises have needed to be made By everyone
 
Moobucket said:
So last year all was well. We had some good frosts, a little rain, and the winter paddock held up brilliantly until we switched to the summer paddock.
THIS YEAR it's rained almost endlessly and my field, although it still has grass in it, and has a few tiny patches of dry, appears to be sliding down the hillside in an enormous slick of mud. I have road planing tracks in and out of the field which are getting destroyed and the field is very muddy at the bottom with large pot holes created by the horse. On the yard we have a dry yard (concrete and gravel) and an outdoor arena (beautifully draining) brand new, and roomy stables 12 x 14 at the smallest. I've asked my liveries to be realistic about turn out. Keep it minimal and try and use other options.

However I'm greated with glum faces. Apparently its going to cost them alot in straw and hay... and I have to provide them with other options. I've suggested walking in hand, riding in the arena and turn out in the yard. I'm at a loss. I get the distinct impression they are taking the P.

I'm not sure I understand the logic in turning out in those conditions when one horse is lame and another has terrible mud fever?

What do you think for £25 ppw DIY?
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I think you're more than reasonable but you're a YO so you can't possibly win! They'll moan if you close the fields and they'll moan if you let them trash the fields.
 
Moonbucket, my sypathies are entirely with you! I only have 4 liveries, and it is 24/7 turnout with open access barns and no school - really basic. My liveries are lovely, but the one thing we fall out over is field management. In the winter they want their horses/ponies to be able to graze everywhere and all the time; in the summer they want to do strip grazing, which I hate, as it damages the field surface.

I do listen to them, but make the point that the choice is in their hands. They have a choice - I don't. They can move to another place. I am stuck with the land I own - and love - for ever. Therefore I protect it as best I can for my other liveries who will come over the years - and for myself.

As regards this winter, the horses can access the concrete track and stable yard, right by our house, at any time they choose. So their haynets are always hung in the yard, under cover (I never put hay/haylage out on the field), and over Christmas, when the weather was diabolical here, they stood perfectly happily, by their own choice, on the track on in the open bedded barn, stuffing their faces and declining to walk through 6" deep mud to the drier, higher part of the field, for about 10 days. They range from Shetlands to a 17.2 steeplechaser, and their legs were all absolutely fine - and no mud fever.

Our land is good old permanent pasture, and usually comes up a treat in the spring when it is rolled - but I don't think it's going to this year. I may well have to seed parts of it, and some areas (it's about 6 acres) are showing signs on turning into permanent water meadow.
 
Where I am we are on individual turn out. I know I have to make my paddock last until April so I'm am restricting my own turn out otherwise I will be stuffed in a couple of months time. As it is I think I'll be feeding hay in the field by march.
Much as I'd prefer group turnout, I think having your own 'patch' makes you think about looking after it more.
 
Nice to hear this ^5

well ours are only on half the fields which is 4 acres I think. The top part had so much grass in it before they change fields 2 months ago so they still have something to munch on albeit wet and soggy we have 7 horses on it ( would normally be 8 ) but my mare PTS :(.

OP it can be done and more horses than land only applies if your land cannot cope (ours does)

You stick to your guns , its your land only you can decide what goes and what stays. Liveries have to abide by your rules when they join as long as its laid out for them when they view it.

You will always get a moaner or two, Ours had to do without the indoor school for a while when we were in the process of re surfing it, as it was out of action 3 and 1/2 months. Not one complaint even when outdoor frozen


MY lot know we ALWAYS pour money back in which is why we don't make money . (just brought outdoor school mirrors this week too)

If these don't apply to you give them an ultimatum you can't have the fields totally trashed beyond repair as your on a hill by the sounds its harder, as it will cost you to reseed etc just from a mere £ 25 per week, which personal I think is peanuts. Don't think you mentioned how many liveries you have (sorry if you have).



When you take into consideration your DIY are paying for

The grazing
the schools
lighting
storage
stable rent
electricity
labour
water
rates
insurance

comes to £ 3.25 per day


That is NOTHING.


before these:
feed
hay
tractor
diesel
and any other outgoings


This is what bugs me when people moan and groan about things when they are paying such a small amount. I think a lot of yards are charging less then they are actually making for the grass and DIY rents.
 
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Interesting post from Leviathan, obviously not making a profit isn't really an option, YO's aren't providing a charitable service.
I do think that from whatever side you come from the horses welfare has to be paramount. If you have a setup where horses are stabled 24/7 throughout the winter, as a YO you have got it wrong.
 
Gingerwitch said:
I think you are too nice !

Put a notice up to say the rain fall this winter has been unprecedented - you are doing your best to ensure you do not have to take the option of CLOSING the fields - and would appreciate if your liveries will WORK WITH YOU - to overcome the current situation - you REALISE this is inconvinent - and appreciate the additonal costs - but some yards close by HAVE CLOSED TURN OUT FOR THE FORESABLE...if any client wishes to discuss the matter then PLEASE BRING YOUR ISSUES TO ME DIRECTLY and I will be happy to discuss them further.

I appreciate your custom, but have only asked you to help me to help you, if you cannot then I appreciate that you will be looking for alternative livery - if you could let me know as soon as possible then I can contact the people on the waiting list.

thank you for all your help
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How snotty and what an awful way to treat loyal customers/clients. To basically suggest 'my way or the highway' to your liveries is completely rude. Would you like to go into Sainsburys to be told 'If you don't like it, go to Morrisons' when an issue is raised with the store manager? I don't think so...

Fields DO recover much quicker than people think, everyone panics when they turn into a horrible muddy mess but soon Spring comes and all is restored, why should horses have to suffer because of natural environment? They are designed to be out! A horse out and about regularly moving and grazing on what it can is much happier than a horse stuck in a stable eating copious amounts of hay and feed.

May I ask do you know the OP's yard personally? Because you seem to already know that nearby yards have closed turnout for the forseeable future and you also know that the OP has a waiting list! Of course I doubt the OP would deny that there is a waiting list - that would be rather self inflamatory on a public forum. I do, however, think it is wrong to jump to assumptions with the nature of this discussion.
 
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AdorableAlice said:
What an interesting comment, founded on what ?.

In a year that has seen the most rainfall since records began, correctly managed grassland is grassland that is closed to stock and that includes horses. With the land not trashed, the cost in spring will be derv to harrow and roll, plus fertilizer if needed. Many fences will need attention as posts, especially hinge end gate posts will have been compromised by the wet ground. This done the land will be ready for many months of use.

Trashed land will need several sessions of harrowing/rolling and there will be plenty of paddocks that will need re-seeding and if that is the case they will be shut for the summer.

The trashed paddocks will recover by themselves of course, no cost involved for a wonderful field of docks and weeds. The real damage to the fields and the horses in them is about to be done, as the ground begins to dry out, this is when the horses will punch holes into very holding ground. The farriers and the vets will be kept busy. If we have the predicted cold snap, these paddocks, with foot deep holes in them, will freeze solid. Turn out on them and no vet will be needed, just the knackerman.

Of course horses need some time at liberty but common sense has to prevail in the conditions we are experiencing at the moment. I guess yard owners are never going to be able to please all their clients all of the time, most especially those yard owners who have clients with little or no understanding of the countryside, natures seasons and land management. No doubt the client sees grass growing on their lawn and expects the same from pasture with livestock on.
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AA I think the poster meant it shouldn't cost the liverys that much more to be keeping the horses in if done carefully.

Leviathan said:
Well then you are doing everything right our resting field also is smooth. The horses will not be moving across until then. My parts are fully understanding as its in their interest not to trash another field.
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Although we sometimes harrow we rarely seem to need to roll as the paddocks seem to settle themselves down once the horses are off them. I'm always amazed at how well they recover every year with a bit of reseeding and hence have given up worrying what they look like in the wet!
 
mandwhy said:
I hear of YOs who restrict perfectly ok fields and then say you can't turn out on the school as it will ruin the surface!
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Oh how very dare us spend thousands of pounds building and maintaining our arenas and then stop liveries turning their horses out in them where they'll dig for Australia or gallop about churning up the surface or mash hay and droppings into it :confused:

EventingMum said:
^^^ Wise words.

The comments by liveries often show a complete lack of understanding for the issues faced by YOs. Many seem to want what is completely unrealistic at minimal cost - very few of us are YOs due to the financial returns achieved, it's a lifestyle business and the margins are often tight.

As we all know 2012 was one of the wettest years ever however some parts of the country have suffered more than others and so I suspect some of the comments have come from liveries in parts of the country which have better draining soils and have possibily had a little less rain than some of us.
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You see, this sort of extreme weather is normal where I live, and we make provision for winter turnout by building turnout pens. We do not use the fields from the end of September until April, and even that depends on the spring/autumn conditions. I think the problem is that because this type of weather is unusual in some areas, other provision has not been made because it hasn't been needed, and some liveries seem unable to understand this. I'm sure if this weather becomes the norm, then yards will adapt.

Ellen Durow said:
I think you're more than reasonable but you're a YO so you can't possibly win! They'll moan if you close the fields and they'll moan if you let them trash the fields.
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Yup! ;)
 
Pale Rider said:
I do think that from whatever side you come from the horses welfare has to be paramount. If you have a setup where horses are stabled 24/7 throughout the winter, as a YO you have got it wrong.
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I agree and yes if you have to keep them stable 24.7 yes it is wrong.

Makes me wonder though if the fields are not coping you need to sit down and work out a way they can cope.

Drainage.
separating fields into smaller paddocks so some are rested.


one thing I have always wondered about but as we are not hills so not an issue is:

If you are on steep hills, if you could dig a proper secure base and create a small pond in the corner so natural water flowing down would self fill water

Things get harder if you have a horse that fence walks up and down most of the day or from 1 pm till it come in that is a pain.




Every livery yard / field for horses in the Uk and elsewhere

  • All need different care
  • different fertilizer
  • different management
  • have different climate
  • different drainage
  • copes differently with horses grazing.
  • different soil

I am sure if our yard was somewhere else had different soil etc we would not be so lucky.

What works for some will not work for others.
 
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I took the post as the YO asking about restricting the grazing not shutting the fields? My YO is still turning out on the winter fields though she will keep in if it is really raining hard, there is just no point. At the weekend, I will keep mine in and ride him longer but I appreciate the fact that he does, and will have access to turnout all winter. I also appreciate we have to make this grazing last as we won't be allowed on the summer fields and thats fair enough. Maybe I take a different view as I have been on this yard for a very long time, but I have never known it so wet and this YO takes care of her fields. We actually have water lying on the summer fields at times, and this is on a chalk/sand base on top of a hill. I wouldn't throw my toys out if turnout was cut back, as long as mine could get out every day and as for the increased cost, there really can't be much grass left so the horses would probably need hay in the field anyway. If bedding was going up, I would personally be tempted to switch to a semi deep litter.
 
the problem is most (not all) run a yard so that they don't have to pay livery for their own horses (i have cut back to 4) but actually don't make a profit by the time the £3 a day covers my water, electric, business rates, repairs, field maintence & general other costs. maybe its time all of us yo's upped our weekly prices as its been £25 a week for decades.......
 
Until you've had to manage your own land and grazing, you won't appreciate how hard it can be.....

Mine are out.....in a 'sacrifice' paddock...which saves my paddocks, costs me money in that I have to put hay out.....but my horses get out for 12 hours a day at least. But its my land, my choices to make.
 
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