FIELDS! A YO verses livery perspective

Hippona said:
Until you've had to manage your own land and grazing, you won't appreciate how hard it can be.....
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I don't think that's fair at all - that implies that liveries go around with their eyes shut, oblivious to what goes on on the yard, which is simply not true (for most).
 
amymay said:
I don't think that's fair at all - that implies that liveries go around with their eyes shut, oblivious to what goes on on the yard, which is simply not true (for most).
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I'm sure (most) don't.....just speaking from experience when I was a livery...there were those who moaned when we had restricted turnout to save the fields, then moaned if YO let us keep the horses out that the fields were trashed.....actually, just thinking about.....they moaned about everything lol:rolleyes:
 
Hippona said:
Until you've had to manage your own land and grazing, you won't appreciate how hard it can be.....

Mine are out.....in a 'sacrifice' paddock...which saves my paddocks, costs me money in that I have to put hay out.....but my horses get out for 12 hours a day at least. But its my land, my choices to make.
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But the main reason you have been able to make that choice is that your land is not over-stocked.

I wouldn't be a YO for anything but I do think that some of them try to make easy money out of people with no other realistic choice, mostly by overstocking. I realise that in order to have a more realistic number of horses on the land, YOs will need to charge a more realistic fee. I agree that many liveries don't fully understand all the work that can go into maintaining the land and facilities but then, if the land wasn't over-stocked it wouldn't take so much work.
 
OP, I don't have liveries but just want to say that our ponies have adopted a very similar routine to the one you have suggested by their own volition.
They are small, sensible on bad footing and unshod, the field is wet but still has plenty of grass cover - still the ponies like to come onto the concrete yard and have spent lots of time in the stables.
 
happyhacking:) said:
I personally think if you don't have the land then don't have the liveries! People are paying for the facilities that they need for their horse. To then withdraw that because your fields are a little wet is I'm my view wrong and possibly even a breach if contract.
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Hahaha!! You have got to be having a laugh?

I keep my horses at home I have 2 horses on nearly 10 acres (of grass) with a sand paddock and a bit more of woodchip and my fields are completely trashed! I have 8 sheep too who do their bit by keeping the weeds down, but I have stopped turnout now until the fields are dry enough to roll and harrow, mine are out in the sand paddock for an hour in the morning whilst I do beds, and same again at night, they are worked most days depending on what time I start/finish work. They won't die from not being out, yes it's not ideal but it's better than complaining that I have no hay come June/July!

Out of interest how much more land would you suggest I need for 2 horses if 10 acres isn't enough?
 
amymay said:
I don't think that's fair at all - that implies that liveries go around with their eyes shut, oblivious to what goes on on the yard, which is simply not true (for most).
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Sadly I would actually say that the majority of liveries/horse owners in this area don't actually equate land management/farming with anything to do with their horses at all!
 
Baggybreeches said:
Sadly I would actually say that the majority of liveries/horse owners in this area don't actually equate land management/farming with anything to do with their horses at all!
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Some don't its true, but those are the type of liveries who are a PITA and think you should sweep the yard before they arrive and put the lights on in preparation for their arrival in case they slip over.

For the more realistic liveries amongst us, I would strongly disagree with your sentiment. My horse's grazing and turnout is the single most important facility a yard can offer.

I get frustrated by looking at livery yard websites. It'll tell me all about the hot horse shower, the menage, the stables, the owner's changing/rest room and flower tubs but it won't tell me anything about the land.

Its the land I want information on, before driving 12 miles to see some sad, little weedy paddocks fenced by sagging tape. If the grazing isn't right, all the great facilities on the yard, aren't going to make it a place that I want to livery the horses.

My current yard has unrestricted turnout, the fields drain well and are not overstocked. They will not need to recover because they are fine all year round. Virtually weed free and maintained by a farmer whose family have owned and loved the land for 500 years.
That's why I choose it.
 
Baggybreeches said:
Sadly I would actually say that the majority of liveries/horse owners in this area don't actually equate land management/farming with anything to do with their horses at all!
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Walk a mile in another man's shoes and all that........

In general I agree, many people just have not had the experience, I have one super owner who said that my life was great, just throw hay down and that's your day done...yep right, she always turns up just as I have finally come in for a coffee or some food, my breakfast is frequently grabbed at lunchtime. At one yard I was at it was more of a co-op, we had regular maintenance days because if we didn't then stuff didn't get done at all, or it was the same old stalwarts (often OH's) who became unofficial Mr Fixits.

I think that Owners do appreciate that there is work involved but often just not the scale of it. I have lovely owners, but when their horses trash a fence they just apologise and say "oh it's just a new post" etc, but it isn't, is it? It is moving the horses, sourcing the post, removing the fencing from the old one, removing the broken post, replacing it, replacing the wire/rails again etc, putting the horses back again, that's a good hour or two out of your day that you may have earmarked for another project.

Or the one that persistantly leans over the fence and breaks it, "Oh put some tape up" OK, fine, simples. It is and it isn't. Bye, bye $200 for insulators, nails, new tape and $200 for a new energiser...not to mention the hours it takes to re-fence a 2 acre paddock.

That's before you even think about the re-seeding (faints at cost of seed) the harrowing, the rolling, the fuel. Or the topping.

No wonder I don't rely on horses for an income.
 
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This year has been really unusual and I'm not surprised that many yards are restricting turnout, even ones that never have before. I'm very lucky in that my yard offers 24/7/365 turnout on very large fields which are well maintained. Turnout has never been restricted by YO in the 11 years I've been there. We don't really have any mud to content with, at least it's only about an inch deep and mostly round the gateways, though lots of areas are waterlogged and squelchy.

That said, this year my mare has expressed a preference for not going out as much, usually when it's rained heavily non-stop for a period of time and the fields are waterlogged. She hides at the back of her stable and gives me very sad looks and hugs me with her head & neck :) She's also had mudfever for the first time in years, so badly that I had to keep her in as it just wasn't clearing up with turnout. I've relented and she has a couple of half days followed by evenings in each week. It gives her a break from being out, standing at the gate and mugging people who pass (not moving much, negating most of the benefit of turnout).

I'm even more fortunate in that it will only be a few weeks before YO opens up another set of fields, so we'll have a reprieve for a while - plenty of grass and no mud whatsoever. How long that will last will depend on the weather, hopefully it will stop raining at some point!
 
I think you are being very resonable. We have three acres split between two fields and they currently have the concrete yard and top field as TO. The top field is now completely trashed and just mud - they still go on it to roll though :rolleyes:

We are lucky in that we have a second field to save for summer but if you dont have that it makes sense to save your fields. TBH horses dont enjoy standing out in mud and bad weather anyway
 
Enfys said:
Walk a mile in another man's shoes and all that........

In general I agree, many people just have not had the experience, I have one super owner who said that my life was great, just throw hay down and that's your day done...yep right, she always turns up just as I have finally come in for a coffee or some food, my breakfast is frequently grabbed at lunchtime. At one yard I was at it was more of a co-op, we had regular maintenance days because if we didn't then stuff didn't get done at all, or it was the same old stalwarts (often OH's) who became unofficial Mr Fixits.

I think that Owners do appreciate that there is work involved but often just not the scale of it. I have lovely owners, but when their horses trash a fence they just apologise and say "oh it's just a new post" etc, but it isn't, is it? It is moving the horses, sourcing the post, removing the fencing from the old one, removing the broken post, replacing it, replacing the wire/rails again etc, putting the horses back again, that's a good hour or two out of your day that you may have earmarked for another project.

Or the one that persistantly leans over the fence and breaks it, "Oh put some tape up" OK, fine, simples. It is and it isn't. Bye, bye $200 for insulators, nails, new tape and $200 for a new energiser...not to mention the hours it takes to re-fence a 2 acre paddock.

That's before you even think about the re-seeding (faints at cost of seed) the harrowing, the rolling, the fuel. Or the topping.

No wonder I don't rely on horses for an income.
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lol Enfys, why is it that before I even read your posts I just know I'm going to agree with you? :D
 
I'm afraid I have to agree with your liveries... I would be most put out if my horse couldn't go out all day every day - particularly as I work 9.30-5.30 meaning I can't get there any other time, never mind the extra cost and the fact that it isn't really fair on the horses to be stood in (even roomy) stables....

Your field WILL recover no matter how bad it looks at the moment...
 
CBFan said:
.. I would be most put out if my horse couldn't go out all day every day - particularly as I work 9.30-5.30 meaning I can't get there any other time, never mind the extra cost and the fact that it isn't really fair on the horses to be stood in (even roomy) stables....
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So you'd be 'put out' if your horse cannot go out & stand in a soggy field, deep mud or acres of water? How 'put out' would you be to have leg damage or other problems with your horse if left out to stand in it?
How put out would you be if the fields were still trashed in 3 months or so time & you had to moan about the copious mud? :confused:

Some places which have never had problems before have seen substantial changes in the water table - I have at mine this year, the 1st time in over 30 yrs have I had mud in my front fields ever, so have restricted the 3 fuzzies so we have something to work with if/when it dries out more.

OP - you are damned if you do & damned if you dont :rolleyes:
Its those who do not own or have to manage land who seem to be the most demanding - the ones who do not often have a clue about land management (as per Enfy's post - nice one missus)

Am so bloody glad I dont have liveries (any more) paying what they think is a kings ransome, but is in fact a pittance & less in a week than they would be paying for 1 nights B&B for themselves......... far less than they would often pay to leave a cat or dog in boarding places :rolleyes:
 
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From a livery's perspective we still have all day turn out, in at night. It sounds great but I have made the decision to barely use it, which is not great with a rising 4 year old in very light work! However, the alternative is that he slides around on a very muddy slippy hill whilst playing and has lost 4 shoes in 8 weeks plus he came in with a big knee. Whilst so far I've had no major injuries my 19 year old who almost never loses a shoe had overreached and lost one. My farrier is now warning that is it continues I will have real problems with feet.
I think that OP sounds really reasonable and in this unusually wet year we all have to work together to maintain the fields and try to keep horses happy and exercised.
 
Land around here is £10,000 plus per acre.

Summer 2011 I spent nearly £1000 reseeding (contract work) 4 acres - this is not yet ready for horse grazing so land has been used for silage so far.

Fencing said 4 acres cost £3000.

I have a total of 50 acres available for the horses. Each year all the land is harrowed, rolled, topped and poo picked by machine. Weed killing and fertilising is done on a rota basis. I run two tractors, two harrows, two rollers, a mechanised poo picker and a topper. All this machinery cost a lot of money to buy and costs a lot to maintain and fuel. Then count in my time sat on said tractors to effect the work - to top the whole farm would take me 2 - 3 days solid due to the hilly nature of the land.

I used to have a few liveries and they stayed well as I believe in giving value for money and they had all the facilities - turnout,walker, loose school, arena, show jumps good staff etc.

Will I replace them? NOT ON YOUR LIFE - NEVER EVER EVER and certainly not for £25 measly pounds per week!
 
CBFan said:
I'm afraid I have to agree with your liveries... I would be most put out if my horse couldn't go out all day every day - particularly as I work 9.30-5.30 meaning I can't get there any other time, never mind the extra cost and the fact that it isn't really fair on the horses to be stood in (even roomy) stables....

Your field WILL recover no matter how bad it looks at the moment...
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then if you were one of the OP's liveries, I'd tell you that you are welcome to buy your own land.

I have just spent two years 'letting' my grazing recover after the previous tenant also thought the pixies would do it. It's been two years of money and hard work 'letting' it recover and there's still a way to go.
 
horsesatemychristmasmoney said:
Those who restrict turnout over with a few days staying in, do you not find when they do go out, they tear it up more than if they just went out for a few hours everyday?
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That is exactly what would happen if I kept mine in at all they live out 24/7 we have a small area near the main gate that is muddy but because they wander around slowly they dont damage the ground mind you if we restrict them even for afew minutes they charge around inspecting the fencing and cutting the ground to ribbons
OP Personally I would find standing the horses on concrete for hours unreasonable as it would be very tiring on their legs however you did say there was a gravel area as well which negates that a bit. I dont think it is unreasonable to expect people to behave appropriately and do as you ask and it shouldnt make their cost higher as no doubt they are putting hay in the muddy field so they could just use slightly less and leave them in after all they will be warmer and not wasting any the small saving in hay would pay for the extra straw. I would if they are connected seriously think about the grazing per head in winter you need 2 acres per pony so both fields should be in use for 7 horses to graze out you need 14 acres not less as in 5 there is no wonder the grass is struggling so maybe if possible open the gate between the gates wills till get poached but the land will hold up better.
I do agree that part time out or in that doenst account for those at work is unreasonable so if you are happy to bring all 7 in at lunchtime or put them out at lunch then I dont see a problem. My answer would be just that half go out for four hours morning they are brought in and the other half go out in the afternoon your stock level would be closer to ideal then,
Mine have to stay out 24/7 as we dont have stables my decision as the old girl had a long spell on box rest and hates stables now and will drag you back out or jump the door to get back out
 
Of course most YO manage their land like any stock farmer keeping sheep or cattle. Basically, everything horses need like a hole in the head they get, everything that is importantant to their physical and mental welfare, they don't get.
Well, that's horsekeeping in the UK for you.
 
I think if you close turnout completely then an alternative needs to be offered after a week or so I.e trash paddock/sand area/alternate days etc. I can just about cope with mine in for up to a week but after that its just not fair on them or me 'trying' to handle then ;)
 
Last time I was on a yard that restricted turnout to no turnout at all for weeks on end, no one was able to ride as the horses were too hyper to ride safely.

They did get turnout in the menages whilst owners mucked out and it became commonplace to hear an escapee, having jumped the gate, making a bid for freedom by galloping across the yard.

When they did get turnout, owners took their life in their hands trying to hold the excited horses from stable to field and then the horses cut up the paddocks by running around.
 
CBFan said:
Your field WILL recover no matter how bad it looks at the moment...
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It certainly will, but not in time for the liveries to turn out 24/7 from May to October, which is what most liveries require.

Plus, if no harrowing, rolling and re seeding is done where needed, a perfect field of docks will be available. Nature is a wonderful thing, but even she is going to need a hand after the rainfall we have all had in 2012. It is also worth remembering we are only half way through the winter, very possibly more flooding and or snow to come.

I have two trash paddocks on the go at the moment and the horses go out on a rota basis. They stand gazing at the good ground on the other side of the fence, not a chance I tell them, you need that at the end of the winter !

I do think some liveries do not realise that land management is not an immediate business, it is planned and thought out at a minimum of six months in advance, just as arable land will be managed on a yearly basis.
 
This is what liveries don't understand. The number of you that have said oh it will be fine when the fields dry up, they'll soon recover. It doesn't just happen. All that a trashed paddock will grow is weeds. A nice assortment of docks, thistles and buttercups. It cost us £140 for the man to spray and over £300 for the weed killer last year. This year will be the same, plus the endless hours my OH will spend harrowing and rolling trying to get them back into some semblance of order. Trust me, it doesn't just happen. YO's MAKE IT HAPPEN!.
 
The yard I am on has 50 acres for 26 horses so plenty of grass theoretically but the soil is not well draining and the weather foul. We are in Tuesday and Thursdays and out all other days. I'm happy with that as I think it's a fair exchange and livery prices stay at current rate because less damage to fields to fix in spring
 
jjbarney said:
This is what liveries don't understand. The number of you that have said oh it will be fine when the fields dry up, they'll soon recover. It doesn't just happen. All that a trashed paddock will grow is weeds. A nice assortment of docks, thistles and buttercups. It cost us £140 for the man to spray and over £300 for the weed killer last year. This year will be the same, plus the endless hours my OH will spend harrowing and rolling trying to get them back into some semblance of order. Trust me, it doesn't just happen. YO's MAKE IT HAPPEN!.
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We have never sprayed.. we do lift some docks and have some buttercups (but they are not easy to get rid of with spray anyway). So yes our 2 fields do recover pretty fine when the weather dries up and it does just happen. We didn't harrow or roll last year.. and got more excellent hay than ever as the horses had a track round the outside of the big field (3.5 acres we have 5 in total for 2 horses, wouldn't want less over winter).

Perhaps it helps having reasonably good doers too, I don't mind a barer patch near the gate as it can make the start of the track when they don't need too much of the spring grass.


Shadowboy, do you think the 2 days in makes a difference to the ground?
 
I think so because they are not in enough to go mad when they get turned out and because most liveries compete at the weekend or the kids are out hacking/ playing ponies there is pretty much nothing out on a weekend so it does seem to work except in the very bottom field which was a bog even last summer as all the other fields drain into it
 
Baggybreeches said:
Then I might suggest these horses were being fed too much?
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You could suggest that, but on a 60 horse yard with pretty good standards of care and knowledge, I'd say frustration at being confined 24/7 was the major factor.

My three fared reasonably well because, along with a fair number of other owners, we virtually lived with the horses to get ours out of the stables in rotation throughout the day.
I still feel sad at the memory of those times, caring owners trying to fit in demands of work and family around trying to keep horses sane. Evenings in pouring rain with owners leading horses in hand in endless depressing circles because the menages were in demand with people dashing when a a slot appeared in order to get their horse some time out of the stable.
People started getting crabby with each other over use of the schools.

It was pretty much impossible to ride in the schools because of turnout slots and it was dangerous to take the horses out on the roads because many of the horses were too hyper.

There was no shortage of good mature grazing. Just the allocated paddocks which were never rotated or rested and as more horses arrived, the paddocks got smaller.

This was a well run yard with good facilities and good liveries, but it seems to be a trend with the acceptance of individual paddocks to stuff more horses onto ever decreasing space.

I agree that this year has been exceptional for rain, and therefore if the land is under water, obviously, it's unuseable.
However, my yard is the only one locally that has unrestricted grazing. Neighbours yard has no turnout at all, despite the fields being a similar size and quality to ours.
 
I am probably going to jumped on, but hey ho!

My stable is on a DIY yard. The yard is a small part of a beef farm. Therefore, grazing is the be all and end all to the farmer.
I have been at this yard for 5 years now, and the first year, we had 24/7 grazing. The following 2 years, it snowed hard, then the fields were sodden. No turnout for aprox 12 weeks.
Last year, it rained, no snow. No turnout, then out for a few weeks, then back in again because the fields were flooding. Currently, we are in, because the fields are ankle deep in water and even if we had turnout, I wouldn't becauseof the risk to a recently healed ligament.

I can't think of anywhere in my area with 24/7 turnout. The hay and straw is home produced and I'm currently paying £3.50 and £2.50 a bale respectively.
We have a concreted turn out area, a track area and a small paddock, with a totally trashed gateway. (Real wellington eating mud!) which we take turns at using.
I'm paying £23/week.

I think, with the way the weather is changing, that the way we keep our horses will have to change. I think some winter turnout is better than none, and if you want grazing for 75% of the year, then horse owners need to work with the yard owners where necessary to protect that grazing. However, There will be areas which are better drained than mine, and worse drained.

If the fields are flooded, then they are flooded.
 
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