Fight or Play?
- Thread starter TheresaW
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Cinnamontoast
Fais pas chier!
But missing teeth is an issue, being a non recognised colour isn’t unless it causes health issues, surely? Does it? I mean, I have no idea. I don’t think breeding ‘unusual’ colours is great, a healthy dog is more important, obviously, that should be the focus. I think roan springers are beautiful, some people might hate them. Who has decided that certain colours aren’t acceptable? I’m not having a go, just genuinely curious.
Books'n'dogs
Well-Known Member
I knew a very reputable GSD breeder here in the States who produced a litter with 3 blues about 10 years ago, we have since lost touch but 1 of the blue dogs suffered from alopecia from just a few weeks old, it was an otherwise healthy dog but its fur was unnaturally thin for the breed and it had a few small bald spots. J, the breeder, was told by an older European based breeder that isn't uncommon in the dilutes and that it is a reason why they are considered undesirable.
CorvusCorax
'Do you come here often?'
It's in the breed standard. If you keep breeding from dogs with missing teeth, you'll have no teeth. If you keep breeding from dogs with lack of pigment, you'll have no colour.
If dilute dogs are healthy, show me one doing something apart from looking nice in pictures. If you find one, it will be an exception.
Breed standards aren't about likes or dislikes, they're about what makes the breed what it is.
Is roan in spaniels a fault, as per the breed standard?
scats
Well-Known Member
Play. JD and Loki used to play that way for hours when they were young. It never escalated, despite us thinking sometimes it might.
Cinnamontoast
Fais pas chier!
It’s not really mentioned, would have to check, @druid will know.
Clodagh
Playing chess with pigeons
Google tells me roan is a recognised colour. I would think it was as it’s only 5 minutes ago that springers and cockers were the same thing and roan cockers are fine.
CorvusCorax
'Do you come here often?'
I found it OK on the Cocker breed standard where it states it's OK and anything not on the list was undesirable, but the English Springer breed standard is indeed quite vague.
blackcob
🖖
To a degree it's dictated by the breed clubs - in one of my breeds we've recently proposed and voted on an amendment to the KC breed standard, to clarify some vague wording regarding colour that may have been interpreted as some colours being less desirable than others.
FWIW I think that where a colour has always been found in the breed historically, it isn't associated with any health issues, and most importantly where it can be a perfectly natural consequence of mating two standard/accepted colours then acceptable colours are a pretty arbitrary distinction.
However, the waters are muddied by people breeding solely for colour without care for temperament, structure and ability - and those things get lost fast. As CC, until the krazy kolours are routinely making it at the same levels as standards then I don't think it unfair to warn people off them, as they are probably not getting what they think they're getting in terms of behaviour, performance and whatever makes X breed an X breed.
Mismarks aside.
MurphysMinder
Well-Known Member
The trouble with non standard colours in GSD (can't speak for other breeds), is that some people breed for the colour and overlook little things like health tests. Back in the 70s we had a litter with 2 blues in, on speaking to the breed geneticist we realised it came from a dog we had doubled up on. They were both sold for a token amount without KC papers and both grew into very handsome dogs but they were not correct to the standard. Nowadays they would have been worth more than correct colours to some people unscrupulous people.
MurphysMinder
Well-Known Member
Back to the original subject (sorry OP), I would consider that playing. My 32 kg GSD and 8 kg Lancashire heeler play together all the time, but always supervised. The GSD is very good and does seem to pull her punches but if things start to escalate then I step in and spoil the fun.
Clodagh
Playing chess with pigeons
I’ve only even seen black and white and liver and white in the show ring, not that I’ve watched many spaniel shows. And I’ve never seen one out working.
druid
Well-Known Member
So roan in working bred Springers is just black and white with heavy ticking. I've got one that my black and white stud dog threw. He basically looks like a mini Munsterlander. It's not genetically different. It's not common in Show lines as they like clean markings and the show breds make up less than 5% of overall registrations in UK. So they don't select for it. Check the markings out in USA in Show lines, they've heavily selected for an almost solid colour body. Very different to Europe.
On dilute colours - lots of health problems but mostly colour dilution alopecia and atopy. I wouldn't have one.
On dilute colours - lots of health problems but mostly colour dilution alopecia and atopy. I wouldn't have one.
Pearlsasinger
Up in the clouds
I don't know much about GSDs but I do know that Labs are being bred for colour without prioritising health. Liver is a very old established colour in the breed but had all but died out in favour of blacks and yellows. In recent years the colour has been revived and renamed 'chocolate' (
). I have known several and every one has had a health issue. I got 2 pups 40 yrs ago, 1 had to be pts aged 18 maths because of lymphoma, her sister was epileptic and had a grass allergy. One locally has temperament issues, admittedly exacerbated by a lack of training, while another local dog has had both elbows operated on for dysplasia. The bitch that we took on has an allergy problem.Fashion has a great deal to answer for.
I'm Dun
Well-Known Member
apparently roan is what my little spotty weirdo is. His dad is blue and mum black and nearly all his siblings are black, but all have some sort of spotting on their white bits and the all black versions have tiny tan spots on their muzzles. Hes completely spotty,with halos developing arond the spots now, and clearly not a very good example of a whippet as hes enormous! He was born nearly completely white and is still spotting out at coming 2. No idea what odd combination of genes came together to make him.
My other one is blue and white which is common in whippets and doesn't seem to cause any issues, other than thinner hair on backlegs etc,but that seems to be a whippet thing anyway, my black one had it.
CanteringCarrot
Well-Known Member
apparently roan is what my little spotty weirdo is. His dad is blue and mum black and nearly all his siblings are black, but all have some sort of spotting on their white bits and the all black versions have tiny tan spots on their muzzles. Hes completely spotty,with halos developing arond the spots now, and clearly not a very good example of a whippet as hes enormous! He was born nearly completely white and is still spotting out at coming 2. No idea what odd combination of genes came together to make him.
My other one is blue and white which is common in whippets and doesn't seem to cause any issues, other than thinner hair on backlegs etc,but that seems to be a whippet thing anyway, my black one had it.
Does being roan result in the dog having no ears?
Clodagh
Playing chess with pigeons
That’s a fault @I’m Dun was hoping you’d not notice.Does being roan result in the dog having no ears?
CanteringCarrot
Well-Known Member
Ok, but this thread is reminding me of a few things:
My two used to play with a Shepherd mix and it sounded like a dog fight. Just very vocal. Not really doing *anything* but just...loud. Sounded worse than it looked.
I don't know what color my one bitch is
I do have her genetics though. She's like an odd gray brown. Her mother is Formentino and her father is Black. Sometimes she looks gray, sometimes she looks brown and has a wide darker stripe of sorts on her back. She is a dilute, but no idea what I'd call her. Says gray on paper, but..
My two used to play with a Shepherd mix and it sounded like a dog fight. Just very vocal. Not really doing *anything* but just...loud. Sounded worse than it looked.
I don't know what color my one bitch is
I do have her genetics though. She's like an odd gray brown. Her mother is Formentino and her father is Black. Sometimes she looks gray, sometimes she looks brown and has a wide darker stripe of sorts on her back. She is a dilute, but no idea what I'd call her. Says gray on paper, but..
Cinnamontoast
Fais pas chier!
The American versions are a whole lot bigger. I came off an ESS group because I couldn’t cope with the amount of very overweight dogs, not necessarily American, they were just huge, like 35kg. Bear is a turbo oversize version at 24kg, but a motorbike until recently, so not fat. I was hoping he’d be roan, but the ticking didn’t go far enough.
I'm Dun
Well-Known Member
Does being roan result in the dog having no ears?
nah, thats just a whippet thing, they all look like Sid from Ice Age had babies with a seal
