Fighting dogs....sigh.....getting worse

T

toffeeyummy

Well-Known Member
Joined
10 October 2011
Messages
313
Visit site
Well, if anyone remembers my last thread re my patterdales and lab puppy. It seemed to get better and I started to trust the pd a bit more, he was always muzzled when with the pup and all fine they were even playing together. So start to take muzzle off whilst I'm still about and all ok. Until the other night, I was putting the guinea pigs away the dogs were following me about all fine. Then bam, the pd flew at the pup no warning and launched a full on attack. He grabbed her by the face and shook. I shouted and he let go and ran off. Luckily the pup escaped with a puncture wound above and below her eye (eye fine - very lucky) and on antibiotics.
Afterwards the pd was very subdued and quiet. This morning he had a fight with the older terrier, this unusual as older terrier is pack leader and pd normally has a lot of respect.
The thing that worries me more is his subdued ness and I don't think he's happy. He seems like he's not sure what to do and is all out of sorts. Even when the children pet him he looks uncomfortable and I wonder if he'll snap so I am being careful with that. With me he seems fine. I don't know what to do now. I can't rehome him as I couldn't, but if he's unhappy??
Apologies for the long post but I really need some advice here. He is insured so maybe time to get professional help?
Thanks x
 
Rehome your puppy before your other dog kills it/her?it sounds like they will never be a good or safe combination and the attacks are serious and escalating. dogs can kill in fights.its not common but it happens. A young dog has a good chance of being rehomes quickly...the older dog is not likly to be rehomed quickly or easily.plus it would be much more traumatic for a established dog to get used to a new home...and he was there first and appears to be fine with your other dog.When he passes on get a new pup again.... You owe it to your pup to keep her safe.She is not safe in your house with you patterdale. She likly never will be unless he is kept muzzled. Sorry if its not what u want to hear but from reading it threads I half expect the next one to be about a dead pup :(
 
Just seen that the pd also fought with your older terrier as well. How old did I say he was again?is he neutered? If hes a juvenile he mighy be just trying to move up the ranks to top dog in the house. Is be haviing a qualified behavourist out....and keeping him in a muzzle.
 
All so often the hierarchy system is difficult, if not impossible, for one dog to establish, when there are three dogs. Two is fine, generally, but with three, and importantly, if the human isn't able to maintain control, then there will often be worsening events.

A chum of mine, my farrier once, had two Staffs, he introduced a third, and eventually, as the youngest grew, so two of them pitched in and killed the third. I don't remember which dog it was which died, but when it was all over, he and his family were so traumatised that he had the surviving dogs put down.

Terriers of all types need careful consideration, when it comes to pack management, in my view.

Alec.
 
If the Patterdale is looking uncomfortable, even around the children, has he had a thorough checkup at the vet? Blood tests, full body manipulation, even possibly x-rays or further scans if there are any hints of pain (joins, spine, neck, etc.). When having the bloodtests done, ask for a comprehensive thyroid panel to be done in addition - hypothyroid can often cause behavioural issues including aggression but a simple TSH test done on most regular blood panels isn't conclusive evidence of hypothyroidism, you need to look at the other levels like T3, T4, free T3 and free T4, as well as tgAA.
 
Thank you for your answers. I think Alec you've confirmed in my mind the problem, I don't think he can handle being a 3 pack. It's like he's all out of kilter and unsure how to behave. He's 18 months old and yes was neutered at 6 months old. I have no doubt that he will end up killing the pup. Getting rid of the pup is not an option as she is my partners future gun dog he will not let her go and to be honest I think the pd would be better in a one dog home. My brother in law is looking after him shortly whilst we are away and he's hinted at wanting another dog so I'm half hoping he might fall in love with him and want to keep him. He's a scaffolder and would have him at work with him all day so a good life for a pd. if he doesn't want him I think I would rather pts him than rehome to someone I don't know, you hear of so many horror stories. And yes he will be kept muzzled at all times around the pup now
 
Alec Swan said:
All so often the hierarchy system is difficult, if not impossible, for one dog to establish, when there are three dogs. Two is fine, generally, but with three, and importantly, if the human isn't able to maintain control, then there will often be worsening events.

A chum of mine, my farrier once, had two Staffs, he introduced a third, and eventually, as the youngest grew, so two of them pitched in and killed the third. I don't remember which dog it was which died, but when it was all over, he and his family were so traumatised that he had the surviving dogs put down.

Terriers of all types need careful consideration, when it comes to pack management, in my view.

Alec.
Click to expand...

^^^ Agreed and without being rude, its generally a weakness in the human leadership that sees "fights" within a pack, and terriers as suggested need firm leadership imo and can spot a weakness from a mile away!
 
3 isn't always the kiss of death. I have 3 staffs who live happily together and integrate as part of a much larger " pack" at our yard. It helps in my case that as all 3 are rescues, I had every opportunity to really check they would all get on and really took my time with the last unexpected arrival. They also seem to have very clearly defined roles as well as the eldest bitch is very dominant and treats the other 2 like her puppies. She is also trying to teach the Dalmatian puppy some proper doggy social skills at the yard ( which is hilarious )
 
I understand what you're saying, that's why I'm asking for advice. I am an experienced terrier owner they are very well behaved and me as well as the family can do anything with them all. This is what makes it frustrating. I need to know where I'm going wrong and try to improve the situation so that they can live together. I don't just want to get rid of one dog, this would be my last resort and as I said before it would be to someone I knew very well or pts. I came on here to ask for help ascot what I can do to improve the situation. I appreciate your input thank you.
 
I want to say as well that if the pd gave a warning such as a growl or snarl I would be able to stop the situation as he is very submissive towards me. But there is no warning at all, he just flies.
 
I would never own a Patterdale for the simple reason all the ones I know and knew love to fight, I realise this is a bold statement and someone will come on and say theirs never do but IMO they are not suitable pets but are a working dog through and through.

OP you are in a difficult situation but your other dogs need protection and as Cayla said its only a matter of time before your Lab retaliates. Please keep them separated if you have to leave them unsupervised.
 
toffeeyummy said:
I want to say as well that if the pd gave a warning such as a growl or snarl I would be able to stop the situation as he is very submissive towards me. But there is no warning at all, he just flies.
Click to expand...

Did he used to growl? Was he ever punished for it?
I would never actually tell a dog off for growling, it's a great verbal warning and brilliant manners from a dog. A growl is a polite warning to keep clear, or a precursor to a snap, or a signal that they are uncomfortable and being pushed to their limits. A dog that is taught not to growl is far more dangerous as they become unpredictable, avoiding this warning sign and skipping straight to snapping or biting.
May be worth looking for other subtle signs before a fight though - a change in posture, tensing up, ear position, things like that.
http://petsmiles.com/blog/archives/2046448
 
Yes he will growl if uncomfortable but I can change my posture and look and he will look down and get on his bed. I do not notice any changes before an attack it is very sudden. The puppy is VERY submissive towards him this is why I don't understand why he attacks her, it's almost like he doesn't think. I am going to take him to the vets Tom for a thorough check over too.
 
The fact your pup is so submissive may even be winding him up, some dogs cannot stand the grovelling/submissive behaviour of other dogs. I find very submissive dogs are often an "easy target", especially for a cocky breed like a patt.
Hope the vet finds something "fixable" with your boy.
 
Pendlehog said:
The fact your pup is so submissive may even be winding him up, some dogs cannot stand the grovelling/submissive behaviour of other dogs. I find very submissive dogs are often an "easy target", especially for a cocky breed like a patt.
Hope the vet finds something "fixable" with your boy.
Click to expand...

Very true, esp if she is a squirmy submissive:D as in rolling around in front of him and licks his mouth kind of thing, then indeed his will react, in this instance I would prevent her from pestering by redirecting her but he would still get his firm warnings for any unwanted behaviours.
 
If your attention is diverted by putting away ? then you may not have seen the warning signs of an attack of your PD on your puppy. Easy to miss something when your backs turned.

Once you've been to the vets and ruled that out (you've been given excellent advice re the thyroid panel etc) if you still don't think the PD can cope and if he's the one to go then go back to your breeder before you start thinking about pts. Its more than a little unfair to put a perfectly good dog to sleep just because you don't want him to fall into the wrong hands. Your breeder if any good may have someone else that would like him and can give him a good working home. 18 months is no age for a dog and most try their luck around then. You've upset the balance but it may well have happened as your PD got older anyway.
 
There is no warning as I always have my eye on him. The first two times I missed the start of the attack as they were unexpected and I wondered if he'd given her a warning growl and she'd over reacted as she's very wimpy and screams if you even grab her (dopey lab)...but the third time they were just stood still as I put the g pigs in the hutch (they were to the side of me) and he just lunged at her from a stand still. She is submissive but not a pestering pup as, well she's terrified of him now! I take no chances now and either one is in the crate or he is muzzled. It is not an option to go back to the breeder and of course pts is my very last option. He is very clingy to me at the moment and tonight wanted to be cuddled on my lap which is unlike him as he will normally just lay on the floor. Perhaps I should have a reading done like another poster on here because I would love to know what he's thinking!!!
 
I'm sorry the situation has got worse. I replied on your last thread, as like you, I have an older terrier, a youngish patterdale and a newish lab x puppy. Luckily our 3 seem to get on well, but a patterdale is imo an unpredicatable beast. Our one fights with the older bitch over toys and bones etc, but she tends to put him in his place. I agree your boy seems unhappy, they are thoughful little buggers. Does he feel like you give the new one more attention than him? Is he getting less exercise? If our boy feels left out he's more inclined to cause trouble. I wouldn't jump to pts, he is so young and hasn't been passed about already - unlike ours who was on his 4th home when we got him aged 1. Could you find a terrier man to take him on and put his aggression to good use on some rats? Also, what do you feed?
 
your poor lab puppy must have a miserable existence at your house at the moment.
lets hope all these unprovoked attacks on it aren't laying the psychological ground work for its own fear aggression issues towards other dogs for you to deal with in the not too distant future
 
Thanks everyone, I have been awake most of the night worrying about this situation. Keeping them separated is fine at the moment as lab pup goes to work with my partner (he is a farmer) so is away a lot of the time. But we live on a farm and I like the dogs to be outside a lot and running together. Lula I agree and am VERY conscious of what this might be doing to pup, this is why I'm so keen to rectify the situation. Thankfully she seems ok, she keeps out of pd way but happily plays with the older terrier. My main concern is the pd is clearly not happy so off to the vets today for blood tests etc. happy hooves thank you I will reply xxx
 
Happy hooves for some reason I can't reply to pms on here, would you mind sending me your email address with the info, we are same area as you :)
 
I have 5 dogs, 4 are terriers. 2 jr, 1 patterdale and a staffy. If any will fight it will be the patterdale starting on the staffy. They have had one proper fight and since then we keep a close eye on them. The staffy would rather walk away to be fair but this day I think his patience snapped. Patterdales tend to not learn their lesson thou and he will keep going back for more, this is a trait I believe they need to do their "job" properly. They are after all working terriers.

He doesn't fight with strange dogs or dogs he meets out and about.

We do not let them play or leave them together unattended. Also the patterdale eats outside. On a day to day basis they are fine and happy in each others company.
 
Dobiegirl said:
I would never own a Patterdale for the simple reason all the ones I know and knew love to fight, I realise this is a bold statement and someone will come on and say theirs never do but IMO they are not suitable pets but are a working dog through and through.

OP you are in a difficult situation but your other dogs need protection and as Cayla said its only a matter of time before your Lab retaliates. Please keep them separated if you have to leave them unsupervised.
Click to expand...

I agree with this. I have a patterdale dog (neutered) who is 4 years old now and finally maturing.

He is very aggressive with other dogs so I never let him off a lead in a public place. He accompanies me to the horses everyday though and is my loyal shadow in that. He is a nervy dog - he always seems to be on edge and seeking approval. I have 2 other dogs - a lab x springer bitch whom he adores and a Sckipperkee he will fight with. Both are neutered but neither will back down in a spat and the Sckip always comes off worse as the patterdale has such a strong mouth and teeth.He has been aggressive to people too - if someone is nervous it seems to make him aggressive probably fear aggression. I did attend dog training, but it is not easy keeping the attention of a pd who is dog aggressive, I don't care what anyone says.
My pd will trot up to the sckips crate and then walk away and then trot up to it again repeatedly doing this to insight the sckip - the sckip always starts growling as you can imagine - I think I would do the same. Funny though as soon as hubby is in the kitchen he wouldn't dare because he knows that hubby will not tolerate that behaviour for a minute.

We had a rough coated patterdale bitch before Coco well actually she was still alive for some time after we got him. She was perfect but hubby had a couple of issues when he first got her then she became the best farrier's dog ever and was completely trustworthy to just be let out and to kill rats at every yard. So I blame her for us believing patterdale's were easy. I strongly believe the smooth coated ones are a different bag :)

As much as I love my pd I would not have another.

Just to add that everyone i know who has had a patterdale has had aggression problems of one sort or another - it's definately in the breed. :(
 
Last edited:
i feel so sorry for you we had a very similar situation with 3 border terriers, they lived together fine for 3 years then one day the younger bitch just turned on the older on and they just kept fighting we have had to move one bitch out of the house now ( they where all at my mothers) i now have the one with me and my partner but there was just no other way they had to be seperated before one ended up dead :(
 
I feel like I've really let him down. I don't know what to do for the best, do I try and work this out or do I rehome him? I hate to think of just passing the problem on as I believe you take responsibility for the animal when you take them on. I must be doing something wrong, just feel like I've really messed up here. Appointment at vets Tom, at work today but can't concentrate :(
 
toffeeyummy said:
I feel like I've really let him down. I don't know what to do for the best, do I try and work this out or do I rehome him? I hate to think of just passing the problem on as I believe you take responsibility for the animal when you take them on. I must be doing something wrong, just feel like I've really messed up here. Appointment at vets Tom, at work today but can't concentrate :(
Click to expand...

Listen carefully to me; even and often the smart-arses amongst us, those who think that they know it all, go back, step back, call it what you will, but we reach the stage where you are now, and we take the time to consider our next move.

Whilst we have to react to the dog which has just reacted to us, the situation is a different matter. Step away, stop worrying, and don the thinking cap!! ;)

Alec.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top