First hack on Andy and a stupid question...

[Kokopelli]

Took him out for the first time with a very well behaved horse and apart from feeling very hyper he was brill. Took him in the school after and he worked lovely and then we put a tiny cross up in the centre of the school and no rushing!! I think the break has done him good

Now for the stupid question...

When I go to do up Andy's noseband he just shakes his head up and down which makes it a pain to do up. I can do up if I do it very quickly.

He's only started doing it after being off due to snow, I checked over his face and there is no obvious pain and the noseband isn't done up to tight and is in the correct place. When I'm done riding he also rubs his nose on his leg not sure if its related.

Any ideas on how to stop him being a twit or why he's doing it?

 

[Tinypony]

See how he goes with no noseband?

 

[Cuppatea]

nope! does he really need it? whats he like without it?

 

[Digger123]

Might be worth checking his teeth/mouth. Could have a sore spot in there and that is why he doesn't like having it fastened

 

[Kokopelli]

See how he goes with no noseband?

He needs a flash or I would

nope! does he really need it? whats he like without it?

Haven't tried him without flash before but old owners said he just opens his mouth constantlyto try and getaway from contact (he has big contact issues )

Might be worth checking his teeth/mouth. Could have a sore spot in there and that is why he doesn't like having it fastened

Had teeth done when he was vetted about 3 weeks ago, they were sharp so he may remember the pain from before but he isn't in pain atm

 

[Kallibear]

Plenty of horses hate the flash noseband. Take it off him, find him a bit he likes (sadly they're usually the expensive ones mine likes the £80 (for a simple eggbutt!) NS bit). Typical.) and school him until he keeps his mouth shut.

Mine does the exact same things if you try and put a flash on (he doesn't really need one, it just can with the bridle) so he got his way and just has a loose caverson.

 

[ElphabaFae]

Could you try a drop noseband?

 

[Tinypony]

Horses open their mouth and try to "get away from the contact" for a reason. Take the flash off and see what you get. If he's fidgety with his mouth get his teeth checked, also consider getting a really good instructor (maybe think outside the box towards someone more classically minded) to look at your contact. The fidgeting when you put the noseband on, the rubbing his head on his leg, these are both indicative that he is uncomfortable. Maybe with the noseband, or something associated with it, but I suspect that his previous "problem" of opening his mouth needed the cause investigated, rather than his mouth being strapped shut.
I can say with conviction that no horse needs a flash noseband, but some riders do. You've got a new horse and a chance for a new start for both of you. Have fun exploring some possibilities.

 

[brucea]

Well - work on the contact issues first - on the ground.

Also have his mouth looked at - and look very closely at the tongue and bars of the mouth - look for tiny petechiae (dark spots the size of a pinhead) and look for any abrasions or discomfort around the area the bit sits in.

Check the top of his tongue for abrasions or petechiae and check the roof of his mouth for abrasions or tenderness - press your fingers up in to the roof of the mouth and if there is any tenderness then you have a problem

Many people believe a snaffle, or losenge, is a kind bit - in some hands yes, it may be, but for the vast majority of riders I see they are unfair and harsh bits and the riders' hands are simply not good enough to be using that bit.

I've seen quite a number of horses with bruised top palates caused by riders using snaffle bits.

A flash only makes it worse for the horse. Don;t think "I have to use a flash because he is opening his mouth" - instead think "why does he need to open his mouth? What is going on that is making this happen?"

Personally I don't ride in bits and bridles any more - I use a soft rope hackamode and clip on reins for all of my riding - at all paces. I backed and trained a 3 year old this summer bitless and bridleless - and it can be done quite easily with the right attitude and approach.

If you must use a bit then the Myler comfort snaffles are good - they don't have the nutcraker action that conventional snaffles have.

 

[brucea]

P.S> forgot to say - if you can't get your fingers into his mouth and get his tongue and play around - that's a very good place to start - before you ever get back on again!

Remember to wet your hands first - a dry hand is not nice to have in your mouth

PPS Tinypony - spot on 100% agree wih the flash comment!

 

[Kokopelli]

Plenty of horses hate the flash noseband. Take it off him, find him a bit he likes (sadly they're usually the expensive ones mine likes the £80 (for a simple eggbutt!) NS bit). Typical.) and school him until he keeps his mouth shut.

Mine does the exact same things if you try and put a flash on (he doesn't really need one, it just can with the bridle) so he got his way and just has a loose caverson.

I've been playing around with bits with him, tried him in a french link today which he seemed to go better in and going to try him in a rubber snaffle. We think he doesn't like the nut-cracker action of the single jointed bit.

Could you try a drop noseband?

Not though of that, will try it if he doesn't go well in the caveeson, but he will still be shaking his head around when I try to do it up.

 

[Kokopelli]

Horses open their mouth and try to "get away from the contact" for a reason. Take the flash off and see what you get. If he's fidgety with his mouth get his teeth checked, also consider getting a really good instructor (maybe think outside the box towards someone more classically minded) to look at your contact. The fidgeting when you put the noseband on, the rubbing his head on his leg, these are both indicative that he is uncomfortable. Maybe with the noseband, or something associated with it, but I suspect that his previous "problem" of opening his mouth needed the cause investigated, rather than his mouth being strapped shut.
I can say with conviction that no horse needs a flash noseband, but some riders do. You've got a new horse and a chance for a new start for both of you. Have fun exploring some possibilities.

I think he remembers the pain from before, I do want to take him out the flash but as I've been getting used to him we wanted to keep him in what hes used to, been expermenting with bits though and we think a rubber snaffle is going to work best.

I'll ride him without a flash tomorrow and see what happens, I don't like the idea of having his mouth strapped shut as I prefer mine to go in the simplist tack possible.

Well - work on the contact issues first - on the ground.

Also have his mouth looked at - and look very closely at the tongue and bars of the mouth - look for tiny petechiae (dark spots the size of a pinhead) and look for any abrasions or discomfort around the area the bit sits in.

Check the top of his tongue for abrasions or petechiae and check the roof of his mouth for abrasions or tenderness - press your fingers up in to the roof of the mouth and if there is any tenderness then you have a problem

Many people believe a snaffle, or losenge, is a kind bit - in some hands yes, it may be, but for the vast majority of riders I see they are unfair and harsh bits and the riders' hands are simply not good enough to be using that bit.

I've seen quite a number of horses with bruised top palates caused by riders using snaffle bits.

A flash only makes it worse for the horse. Don;t think "I have to use a flash because he is opening his mouth" - instead think "why does he need to open his mouth? What is going on that is making this happen?"

Personally I don't ride in bits and bridles any more - I use a soft rope hackamode and clip on reins for all of my riding - at all paces. I backed and trained a 3 year old this summer bitless and bridleless - and it can be done quite easily with the right attitude and approach.

If you must use a bit then the Myler comfort snaffles are good - they don't have the nutcraker action that conventional snaffles have.

I can assure you that I am not damaging his mouth when I'm riding if I was my instructor would not let me on him!

I'm not going to ride him bridless though as I do pony club and dressage on him and thats illegal. As for the flash I don't like it but I whilst I get used to him as he is new to me I thought I'd keep him in the tack hes used to. I was going to start experimenting with different tack last week but due to snow had to change this.

 

[Tinypony]

I've been where you are and ended up changing the tack he'd been used to after our first two rides. I come from a different background in horsemanship to you, so wouldn't expect you to then follow my example. I took the bridle off completely and re-trained my horse to respond to a rope halter, rode him in that and never a bridle for over a year, then reintroduced the bit with the help of excellent instructors. (Tom and Sarah Widdecombe). He's ridden in a Rockin' S french link and no noseband of any description. You would need to come up with your own solution as you need to be dressage legal, but I'm sure you can.
If you really don't like flash nosebands then maybe start by finding an instructor who believes that they are never, ever, necessary. Then get some time with them. I think you'd find it really interesting.

 

[mulledwhine]

I agree with all the comments on the snaffle bit, my old boy, when I first got him, was in a snaffle with flash.

I changed his bit to both a french link and a pelham, strangly he seemed to prefer the pelham above everything else, and was able to do away with the flash

 

[Kokopelli]

I've been where you are and ended up changing the tack he'd been used to after our first two rides. I come from a different background in horsemanship to you, so wouldn't expect you to then follow my example. I took the bridle off completely and re-trained my horse to respond to a rope halter, rode him in that and never a bridle for over a year, then reintroduced the bit with the help of excellent instructors. (Tom and Sarah Widdecombe). He's ridden in a Rockin' S french link and no noseband of any description. You would need to come up with your own solution as you need to be dressage legal, but I'm sure you can.
If you really don't like flash nosebands then maybe start by finding an instructor who believes that they are never, ever, necessary. Then get some time with them. I think you'd find it really interesting.

My instructor hates them just as much as me the other one is actually quite keen on using gadgets but don't go to her that often But happy to have a nose around at different instructors to pick up on different things.

Do you mind me asking what background of horsemanship do you come from?

 

[Kallibear]

I've been playing around with bits with him, tried him in a french link today which he seemed to go better in and going to try him in a rubber snaffle. We think he doesn't like the nut-cracker action of the single jointed bit.

If he's better in one bit than the other then the problem is the bit. You just need to find one he actually likes! A normal french link is a good start but not always the answer - there are many 'better' bits. And as I said before, they are typically expensive

I tried initially a curved single-jointed, which he didn't like much so moved onto a french link, via a low port mullen (which he hated!). French link was acceptable but I eventually spashed out and got him a trans-angled Neuh Shuel bit which he is so much happier in and for the first time actually looked for a contact.

His mouth opening, as others said, is a symptom of a problem so you need to deal with the cause.

Maybe look at somewhere like the Bit Bank to try diferent bits. Or people on here may have ones you can try.

 

[Kokopelli]

If he's better in one bit than the other then the problem is the bit. You just need to find one he actually likes! A normal french link is a good start but not always the answer - there are many 'better' bits. And as I said before, they are typically expensive

I tried initially a curved single-jointed, which he didn't like much so moved onto a french link, via a low port mullen (which he hated!). French link was acceptable but I eventually spashed out and got him a trans-angled Neuh Shuel bit which he is so much happier in and for the first time actually looked for a contact.

His mouth opening, as others said, is a symptom of a problem so you need to deal with the cause.

Maybe look at somewhere like the Bit Bank to try diferent bits. Or people on here may have ones you can try.

Were waiting for the rubber snaffle from the bit bank for a free trial but will definatly have a look at others. I know its an underlying problem which is causing it but were gradually finding out the cause and we think its from the way he was ridden prior to us getting him. I've had a lot of success with NS bits with other horses so may be worth a try on him aswell. Thank you

 

[mystiandsunny]

First of all, if he has contact issues, look in his mouth and have a feel. Your dentist is probably great, but they are human and can miss things - see if there's anything sharp. Also, is there room for a bit? Does he have a big fleshy tongue, a low palate or shallow jaw? Then put in a bit and have a feel - pull gently on the reins and see what happens in the mouth. I wasted weeks last winter with one of my babies who had contact issues right from the start, trying bits etc, when what I really needed to do was have a proper look beyond 'are her teeth ok'. Does he mouth up with the bit in? We tried a flash on her too, but she doesn't need one now we have sorted the problem.

A soft, flexible rubber bit is the kindest (so a good place to start), and is only about £10 so not the end of the world if it's not right. Other things to try are different metals - my TB doesn't salivate enough so any bit pulls on her tongue. Sweet iron fixes this and make her much happier in her mouth. Or try wrapping a bit in vetwrap - makes it softer, helps with mouthing etc.

I really hope you find a good solution - my contact 'issue' pony is never going to be 100% due to her mouth conformation, which is a travesty as she is so trainable and has lovely paces. Luckily, mine likes to jump. I read once that for dressage a horse with contact issues is something to steer well clear from however talented, or they'll break your heart. Too true. Best of luck with yours, hope it's 100% fixable .

 

[Kokopelli]

First of all, if he has contact issues, look in his mouth and have a feel. Your dentist is probably great, but they are human and can miss things - see if there's anything sharp. Also, is there room for a bit? Does he have a big fleshy tongue, a low palate or shallow jaw? Then put in a bit and have a feel - pull gently on the reins and see what happens in the mouth. I wasted weeks last winter with one of my babies who had contact issues right from the start, trying bits etc, when what I really needed to do was have a proper look beyond 'are her teeth ok'. Does he mouth up with the bit in? We tried a flash on her too, but she doesn't need one now we have sorted the problem.

A soft, flexible rubber bit is the kindest (so a good place to start), and is only about £10 so not the end of the world if it's not right. Other things to try are different metals - my TB doesn't salivate enough so any bit pulls on her tongue. Sweet iron fixes this and make her much happier in her mouth. Or try wrapping a bit in vetwrap - makes it softer, helps with mouthing etc.

I really hope you find a good solution - my contact 'issue' pony is never going to be 100% due to her mouth conformation, which is a travesty as she is so trainable and has lovely paces. Luckily, mine likes to jump. I read once that for dressage a horse with contact issues is something to steer well clear from however talented, or they'll break your heart. Too true. Best of luck with yours, hope it's 100% fixable .

Theres nothing wrong with his mouth as in pain wise, what we think the problem is that he has been ridden for about 5 years with heavy hands that jabbed him in the mouth and the only time he had any contact in his mouth was to make him stop. The only pace he accepts the contact in is canter because that all he's pretty much done in his old home.

Well he's not going to be a pure dressage pony but I like to do a bit of everything, my main aim is eventing so his dressage does need to be pretty good still. We have a rubber bit coming soon though it was dispatched yesterday so hopefully will be here soon as I think its what will be best for him

 

[Tinypony]

Koko, I'm an "nh" sort of person, I was totally conventional and used to do "dressidge", but then looked about for other ways, starting with Monty Roberts stuff, I did a lot of study of Parelli, with nfluences from the Dorrance brothers, Mark Rashid, Steve Halfpenny (Silversand Horsemanship), Tom and Sarah Widdicombe, Phillip Nye and also people like Henry Whynmalen, loads of stuff. I'm very lucky in that I have a really good classically trained instructor for a friend (Karen French), who also understands the nh approach to things and is very good. She and Steve Halfpenny are my main teachers at the moment. So loads of influences on what I do really. I suppose the net result of all of that is that I'm prepared to take a huge step backwards to go to the root of a problem and deal with that, then work forwards again to where I thought I was in the first place, if that makes sense. My horse had done very well in the show ring, in-hand and ridden, and was internationally qualified, but to me he was heavy in the hand and too much on his forehand, and the rest is history. I don't want to try to force people round to my way of doing things, I just chip in sometimes to maybe give a different point of view on things. Hope it helps.

 

[Kokopelli]

Koko, I'm an "nh" sort of person, I was totally conventional and used to do "dressidge", but then looked about for other ways, starting with Monty Roberts stuff, I did a lot of study of Parelli, with nfluences from the Dorrance brothers, Mark Rashid, Steve Halfpenny (Silversand Horsemanship), Tom and Sarah Widdicombe, Phillip Nye and also people like Henry Whynmalen, loads of stuff. I'm very lucky in that I have a really good classically trained instructor for a friend (Karen French), who also understands the nh approach to things and is very good. She and Steve Halfpenny are my main teachers at the moment. So loads of influences on what I do really. I suppose the net result of all of that is that I'm prepared to take a huge step backwards to go to the root of a problem and deal with that, then work forwards again to where I thought I was in the first place, if that makes sense. My horse had done very well in the show ring, in-hand and ridden, and was internationally qualified, but to me he was heavy in the hand and too much on his forehand, and the rest is history. I don't want to try to force people round to my way of doing things, I just chip in sometimes to maybe give a different point of view on things. Hope it helps.

I've used Monty Roberts methods on the ground to build up a bond with the horse, in particular one who was very nervy of people, but never got as far to using them whilst riding but can definatly see the benefits. I think its interesting getting someones opinion who is differently trained, I'm not a quick fix person myself and have taken horse back to basics before. I'm so used to youngsters though that its weird having an older horse where I have to undo previous problems and then work from there, thanks for the advice going to try him without a noseband tomorrow and just see how it goes, hopefully the rubber snaffle would have arrived by then aswell

 

[Tinypony]

I didn't stick with the Monty stuff for long to be honest, I quickly went on to Parelli (and moved on from that some years ago). I'm not convinced by the Join Up, and feel it's easier on the horse to approach that sort of thing differently. Not keen on Dually's either. Having said that, I think that combined with some common horse-sense, you pick what works best for you and it will be good.
I think if you pretend Andy is a baby horse and see what happens it could be interesting. I'll be looking out for your updates.

 

[Kokopelli]

Not a big fan of the dually but his common sense approach seemed to really help our nervy pony.
I think thats what I will have to do with him as he was turned away for a while before we got him he is a lot like a baby. Will keep everyone updated though we have big plans for him

 

[coen]

my friend found a small lump next to one of her horses teeth which the dentist told her to pop it turned out to be a hay spore and was causing him to keep rubbing his face on everything so have a little look.

My horse does this sometimes and his nose band is on the first hole so mainly their for asthetic appeal so not any real reason.

 

[brucea]

Like I said before - check his mouth very very thoroughly and you may find some clues.

Tinypony - I came from a VERY traditional background. Bits, double reins, shoes, strapping, martingales, lunging - and dare you tell me otherwise.

Then I questioned one thing and tried something a bit different - and then it sort of went from there. I started to understand what makes a horse a horse, and it's not what I was being told by instructors, farriers, magazines, tack shops, books...... Once you question one piece of "traditional wisdom" and find it wanting, it is easier to question the rest.

I'm unrecognisable now compared to the horse owner I was 10 years ago

You might be surprised how unfair the average traditional riding instructor is on a horse - the insistence on what is considered "contact", the way the reins are used, riders never taught to stay out of the horse's mouth.

For me, the ONLY time reins should be used is to say something to the horse, posture, weight, intention, connection and balance are everything. They should rest on the horse's withers until you need them - and not be touched until you do! That - from a man who used to use double bridle and reins as the answer to everything!!! Mad eh?!

By the way a rubber bit is not always a kinder bitting option. It depends on whether the horse has the room in his mouth for it - very few do have the room - especially ISH types. Rubber bits also have a tendency to be dry - so if you are going to use it, then maybe put some lubrication on it. Honey is good.

Counterintuitive though it seems, a thinner bit is often better becuase it fits in the mouth (in the right hands of course)

 

[Chestnuttymare]

'''Theres nothing wrong with his mouth as in pain wise, what we think the problem is that he has been ridden for about 5 years with heavy hands that jabbed him in the mouth and the only time he had any contact in his mouth was to make him stop. The only pace he accepts the contact in is canter because that all he's pretty much done in his old home.''''

This bit jumped out at me. If he was ridden with heavy hands, there must have been some pain involved.
i agree that the jointed snaffle isn't a gentle bit. i re trained mine with a myler ported comfort bit and now she is ridden in a french link.
Personally i would be getting the flash off asap to see what he is like without it. I assume the previous owners told you he needs it? If they were heavy handed he would be trying to avoid the contact. I bet if you have nice hands and a bit that suits, you will see a different horse. good luck, hope it all goes well x

 

[Tinypony]

Brucea, I spend ages trying to explain to some people that for me now a contact is just the weight of the rein. I don't get it right all the time, but I'm looking for the rein to have a bit of a loop and the horse to be carrying himself well and in balance. It's good to have something to aim at LOL! If I take the slack out of the rein it means something (ie pick up a foot), and then it's release back to neutral again. If you put constant pressure down the rein, which would be what many would consider a reasonable contact, you are giving them something to lean on. I'm trying to ride like a vaquero cowboy, but in a dressage saddle...
I agree about the bit, I use a Rockin' S because it isn't too thick and sits nice and still in the mouth, so the cues mean something.
Oops! Mustn't hijack Koko's thread!
p.s. If a horse is doing something I'd suggest that there is always a reason. It may not be an important reason to us, but they don't do things for no reason.

 

[brucea]

Yep - I'll be interested to read if Koko does give the mouth a really good examination and finds anything.

I think flash bands are very unfair to a horse - if you're working hard and trying to breathe - and open your mouth to swallow excess saliva and move your tongue around - it must be very frustrating and claustrophobic to have it all strapped closed.

But hey-ho, best do what the riding instructor says, after all you are paying them £30 an hour for them, but it's a real pity so many "instructors" just can't see things from the point of view of your horse.

I used to be on a large yard, and it pained me to see how many riders were trying to hold thier horses heads down in this obsessive quest for an "outline" whatever that actually is. So much sawing, so much pulling - and the horse is never allowed to go naturally in a shape that does no harm. Small wonder half the horses were unsound half the time and the other half had sore backs and behaviour problems.

 

[Kokopelli]

Yep - I'll be interested to read if Koko does give the mouth a really good examination and finds anything.

I think flash bands are very unfair to a horse - if you're working hard and trying to breathe - and open your mouth to swallow excess saliva and move your tongue around - it must be very frustrating and claustrophobic to have it all strapped closed.

But hey-ho, best do what the riding instructor says, after all you are paying them £30 an hour for them, but it's a real pity so many "instructors" just can't see things from the point of view of your horse.

I used to be on a large yard, and it pained me to see how many riders were trying to hold thier horses heads down in this obsessive quest for an "outline" whatever that actually is. So much sawing, so much pulling - and the horse is never allowed to go naturally in a shape that does no harm. Small wonder half the horses were unsound half the time and the other half had sore backs and behaviour problems.

I'm sorry if I have taken this the wrong way but it comes across as very patronising to me. My instructors are fantastic and yes they can see the from the point of view of the horse. I'm not some idiot who sits there and thinks "oh look my horse is pretty because he has his head in a false outline". Andy is happy in his work he is in good condition and just looks like a good happy horse. I rode him without the flash today and yes he opened his mouth at first but after that he was fine.

I'm not saying I'm an amazing rider but I am saying that I do not hurt my horse when I ride him I don't give him a sore back, behaviour problems or god knows what else. If I see the slightest problem I try and find the cause which is why I asked about it in the first place.

If you didn't mean your post in that way then I'm sorry for taking it like that. If you did mean it that way then I'd appreciate you stop making comments on my management, instructors and riding without ever seeing me in RL.

 

[Tinypony]

I thought only the first sentence was really about you Koko, which is OK? The rest I took as Bruce going off on a general rant. You've already said your instructor isn't keen on flash nosebands.