Fleece or memory foam girth for horse that drops when mounted

[jo_wales_86]

And if that was me I'd be saying that he has visible signs of postural issues and would likely be better with a bit of groundwork than being ridden, and that any saddle fitted now shouldn't fit in a few weeks/months of you get the work right.



Yep, posture/movement/biomechanics, vets aren't trained to judge much beyond lameness, by their own admission. So many minor issues leadz down the line, to lameness. Recognise and sort it now and you'll avoid that heartache and expense.

Have a look at the resources on equitopiacenter.com for topline etc. He has little muscle under the saddle, it's flat instead of plumped up,.and hollows either side of the wither. He is camped under in the photo so worth monitoring this, it's usually combined postural and hoof balance/function interviews.

Then behind my current best understanding is he's struggling to control his pelvis and so has slightly funky stuff going on as already commented on. The pelvis is critical in helping horse avoid "falling forwards" which is basically how they move, made worse when carrying us. It means they overortate their ribcage, often counter rotating (dropping it to the outside instead of the inside causing saddle slip, on one rein). These are all signs that they are compensating.

They can still feel great, especially do you rider with a reasonably strong contact. Going this route doesn't cost much more than time. Give it a go.

For posture I'm currently recommending a new course from Annie Dillon Horsemanship, set up well for visual learners in particular. Most horses would benefit from it, in fact most horses have at least mild postural issues, were so used to their compensations we don't see the dysfunction any more.

Yes the saddler has said that the saddle is temp and will change as he changes shape

 

[Cortez]

Actually there isn’t, he’s had a vet look at him.

Actually there is, just look at him: roach back (not always a problem, on it’s own); short and steep croup; big dip just before the pelvis; straight hocks and underdeveloped gaskins. The muscling is poor, but that’s not uncommon in youngsters. If I were you I’d want a specialist vet to look at him, and some input from physios. What exactly have you had investigated? X-rays? I notice you haven’t answered those queries.

 

[jo_wales_86]

This book might help you understand why some of us are concerned. It's a really helpful addition to any horse owner/riders bookshelf:

https://amzn.eu/d/hQUTOJt

I had an Arab that would squat like some Star Wars monster for 2-4 strides when mounted. Vet said fine, physio said fine, asked for referral to hospital for a work up and they said fine but try a made to measure saddle, said saddle was purchased and still no difference. It wasn't until I, through a random chain of events, let a McTimoney-Corely practitioner use the mare as a guinea pig for her massage qualification that a cause was found.

The pelvis was completely out of alignment, caused by a fall with previous owner. As soon as it was pointed out it became the most obvious thing ever. A change of vet practice helped too. It was a long, slow road correcting and repairing the damage.

There shouldn't be the shape that is present over the loins. His front end is overdeveloped and back end is under developed. I know that he is young and hasnt done much but that is even more of a reason why his body should be more balanced than it is.

The linked book also goes into depth about posture, the impact of Hoof balance and the "blockages" caused by sore/inflamed/damaged muscle. I really think it would help you to see the whole horse and perhaps pursue the vet further.

To be fair to him, that was the very first day I got him and not a good angle; there is no visible shape over his loins now he’s started ridden work.

 

[jo_wales_86]

Actually there is, just look at him: roach back (not always a problem, on it’s own); short and steep croup; big dip just before the pelvis; straight hocks and underdeveloped gaskins. The muscling is poor, but that’s not uncommon in youngsters. If I were you I’d want a specialist vet to look at him, and some input from physios. What exactly have you had investigated? X-rays? I notice you haven’t answered those queries.

HE HAS HAD X-RAYS SEEN A VET THAT IS EXTREMELY WELL QUALIFIED! HE HAD SEEN A PHYSIO AND A PROFESSIONAL SADDLE FITTER.

I haven’t replied as I’ve had so many comments and haven’t caught up

 

[jo_wales_86]

Actually there is, just look at him: roach back (not always a problem, on it’s own); short and steep croup; big dip just before the pelvis; straight hocks and underdeveloped gaskins. The muscling is poor, but that’s not uncommon in youngsters. If I were you I’d want a specialist vet to look at him, and some input from physios. What exactly have you had investigated? X-rays? I notice you haven’t answered those queries.

And can I say this horse went to a top class show producer to be a middle weight a show producer who has won hoys numerous times and other major shows, but due to sarcoids didn’t want him. He started his ridden career and had no issues with his confirmation.

 

[jo_wales_86]

Hes had X-rays and vet checks

Looking at the picture of your lovely boy on your other thread, then the thing that jumps out at me is the structure and muscling from the saddle back. I’d be wanting back X-rays and a SI check from a good ortho vet. Hopefully it’s just an age/strength thing but putting the picture with the symptoms I’m suspicious

 

[webble]

Cross posted

 

[jo_wales_86]

You can say that yes. Please can you also say what checks a vet has done

Please see above I’ve already answered this

 

[Melody Grey]

There are very, very few horses with ‘perfect’ or even anywhere near perfect confirmation, so people looking at his confirmation aren’t intending this offensively.

Literally every horse I’ve ever worked with and all of my own horses all have confirmational ‘issues’ that were aware of and working with.

 

[jo_wales_86]

A girth is unlikely to make any difference. Have you had a professional saddle fitting?

All the horses ive ever ridden that were ‘cold backed’ either had something simple like a poor fitting saddle, or something more like kissing spine, psd , neck arthritis etc. most of those were young not just old horses.

I wouldn’t say he’s cold backed, no reaction to saddle or girth being done up. I know some can hump etc he don’t do that and hasn’t

 

[TPO]

I understand being defensive of your pride and joy.

Posters aren't "attacking" you or your horse. The replies are coming from a place of concern and experience.

I know you don't want to hear it and it might not be until further down thr line that something happens to make you recall this thread.

The book I linked explains it much more succinctly than I can in a post. Even a quick flick through it would undoubtedly raise questions in your own head about your horse.

Even looking at the major event lines in his hooves tells you that he has been through a few *somethings*.

Bowing out, you can lead a horse to water and all that.

I wish you and your horse well but no girth is going to fix what you are experiencing with this horse. Good luck to you both.

 

[jo_wales_86]

There are very, very few horses with ‘perfect’ or even anywhere near perfect confirmation, so people looking at his confirmation aren’t intending this offensively.

Literally every horse I’ve ever worked with and all of my own horses all have confirmational ‘issues’ that were aware of and working with.

Yes I understand what you’re saying and I get that but I’m trying to say that he isn’t bad confirmation wise. My best horse didn’t have the best confirmation and he jumped internationally previously.

 

[jo_wales_86]

I understand being defensive of your pride and joy.

Posters aren't "attacking" you or your horse. The replies are coming from a place of concern and experience.

I know you don't want to hear it and it might not be until further down thr line that something happens to make you recall this thread.

The book I linked explains it much more succinctly than I can in a post. Even a quick flick through it would undoubtedly raise questions in your own head about your horse.

Even looking at the major event lines in his hooves tells you that he has been through a few *somethings*.

Bowing out, you can lead a horse to water and all that.

I wish you and your horse well but no girth is going to fix what you are experiencing with this horse. Good luck to you both.

A farrier seen him and said he had very good feet. An experience remedial farrier with years of experience.

 

[Cortez]

HE HAS HAD X-RAYS SEEN A VET THAT IS EXTREMELY WELL QUALIFIED! HE HAD SEEN A PHYSIO AND A PROFESSIONAL SADDLE FITTER.

I haven’t replied as I’ve had so many comments and haven’t caught up

Okay, keep yer shirt on…..thank you for clarifying as it makes a big difference in trying to offer support. His conformation does matter; it is problematic and most likely relevant to the problems you are describing. It could very well be that he is simply weak and finding it difficult to organise himself for the first few steps under the rider, not an uncommon problem with big young horses that are weak behind - weak all over actually. Please don’t get defensive, there are many people on here with vast collective experience that can help you.

 

[TheMule]

I wouldn’t say he’s cold backed, no reaction to saddle or girth being done up. I know some can hump etc he don’t do that and hasn’t

but on July 22nd you posted this, 'I’ve recently bought a youngster who has gone off for schooling. The gentleman doing the schooling says he can be slightly cold backed. He is perfect to tack up but he said if you leave him a few days he can hump when you get on.'

So which is it? The title of that thread was asking about saddle pad recommendations for a cold backed horse….

 

[Jenko109]

And can I say this horse went to a top class show producer to be a middle weight a show producer who has won hoys numerous times and other major shows, but due to sarcoids didn’t want him.

I'm sorry. The horse in the picture is unremarkable.

I do not for a second believe a top producer considered this horse.

 

[jo_wales_86]

I'm sorry. The horse in the picture is unremarkable.

I do not for a second believe a top producer considered this horse.

How rude are you! So you’re calling me a liar? Would you like me to private message you a screenshot proving he went there!!!

Can I ask how many Hoys Supreme horses you have produced?

 

[webble]

Oh op I really feel for you this thread must be a bit overwhelming and some of the comments are a little mean

There is however lots of knowledgeable people trying to help. I know you said you had xrays but which bits were xray'd? Was anything else done?

I'm projecting my own horse issues here so take with a pinch of salt but he has been diagnosed with a joint deformity and SI damage and these needed ultrasound to diagnose

 

[jo_wales_86]

but on July 22nd you posted this, 'I’ve recently bought a youngster who has gone off for schooling. The gentleman doing the schooling says he can be slightly cold backed. He is perfect to tack up but he said if you leave him a few days he can hump when you get on.'

So which is it? The title of that thread was asking about saddle pad recommendations for a cold backed horse….

He told me he was cold backed but wasn’t. It was because he was mounting him like a jockey when we asked him to mount him correctly he was good. He went away to a producer from Sept-Feb and then came back and we got him in July.

 

[jo_wales_86]

Oh op I really feel for you this thread must be a bit overwhelming and some of the comments are a little mean

There is however lots of knowledgeable people trying to help. I know you said you had xrays but which bits were xray'd? Was anything else done?

I'm projecting my own horse issues here so take with a pinch of salt but he has been diagnosed with a joint deformity and SI damage and these needed ultrasound to diagnose

He had his back and legs/feet and neck X-rays.

He didn’t have shoes on until this week see.

The comments are unkind and I don’t appreciate people who don’t know me or the horse saying I’m a liar.

I am thinking of getting his back MRI-is this the same as an ultrasound??

 

[Jenko109]

How rude are you! So you’re calling me a liar? Would you like me to private message you a screenshot proving he went there!!!

Can I ask how many Hoys Supreme horses you have produced?

No. I'm saying someone led you on.

The same number as you, I imagine.

 

[Cortez]

He had his back and legs/feet and neck X-rays.

He didn’t have shoes on until this week see.

The comments are unkind and I don’t appreciate people who don’t know me or the horse saying I’m a liar.

I am thinking of getting his back MRI-is this the same as an ultrasound??

MRI isn’t the same as ultrasound. I think you may be better to take a step back and work on strengthening him with exercises on the ground: lunging, poles, that sort of thing. Five is very young, especially for a big, gangly type like he is. What are you planning to do with him?

 

[jo_wales_86]

No. I'm saying someone led you on.

The same number as you, I imagine.

So you know nothing

No one had led me on- why would a show producer say they had a horse they didn’t.

Come on now- you’re making a fool of yourself with your nasty comments.

 

[jo_wales_86]

MRI isn’t the same as ultrasound. I think you may be better to take a step back and work on strengthening him with exercises on the ground: lunging, poles, that sort of thing. Five is very young, especially for a big, gangly type like he is. What are you planning to do with him?

He’s just going to be a nice riding club type- do a bit of everything like dressage, SJ (maybe some XC) and hacking and fun rides and some local shows. We may do like team quest/ my quest.

 

[Jenko109]

So you know nothing

No one had led me on- why would a show producer say they had a horse they didn’t.

Come on now- you’re making a fool of yourself with your nasty comments.

I didn't say they didnt have the horse. I said that I did not believe that they seriously considered it as having the potential you describe, had it not had sarcoids.

I guess knowing enough to know the difference between conformation and confirmation, is perhaps a good start.

It is clear that you believe there is nothing wrong with this horse and you don't want to hear otherwise.

Good luck finding your magic girth.

 

[jo_wales_86]

I didn't say they didnt have the horse. I said that I did not believe that they seriously considered it as having the potential you describe, had it not had sarcoids.

I guess knowing enough to know the difference between conformation and confirmation, is perhaps a good start.

It is clear that you believe there is nothing wrong with this horse and you don't want to hear otherwise.

Good luck finding your magic girth.

Did I ever say there was anything wrong with him- no!

I have given responses to genuine people who show concern and want to help.

I asked about a girth following on from another thread where someone had a similar issue.

I know about confirmation thank you and I also know what I said about him going to a producer is correct. Did I say he was going anywhere I just said he went to a producer who had produced HOYS horses - maybe read the sentence before you comment.

The magic girth can go along with magic happy pills for yourself.

As the saying goes no one likes a know it all

 

[sbloom]

There are very, very few horses with ‘perfect’ or even anywhere near perfect confirmation, so people looking at his confirmation aren’t intending this offensively.

Literally every horse I’ve ever worked with and all of my own horses all have confirmational ‘issues’ that were aware of and working with.

Yes I understand what you’re saying and I get that but I’m trying to say that he isn’t bad confirmation wise. My best horse didn’t have the best confirmation and he jumped internationally previously.

This isn't particularly about conformation, it's about posture and compensatory movement patterns. Gillian Higgins, of Horses Inside Out, at her training for saddle fitters, said, and I quote:

"The vast majority of injuries in horses are the result of repetitive strain"

Horse start moving incorrectly for all sorts of reasons, conformation being only one of many, and the only one that 100% can't be corrected, only helped. The rest can all,.in the right circumstances, be improved massively if not corrected completely.

We CAN read these compensations in the body, in their musculature, their stance, their balance and posture. And he has some signs.

You can either blow us off with statements that he doesn't have any issues and we don't know what we're talking about, or you can read up, spend some time on this, and decide if there are better ways to help your horse than just a different girth

So many horses that were/are "fine" are absolutely not, show horses at the very top levels (hell, international GP dressage horses) are clearly in compensation and yet are winning at the top. It doesn't mean it's right, and it's definitely not horse-centred.

 

[jo_wales_86]

I didn't say they didnt have the horse. I said that I did not believe that they seriously considered it as having the potential you describe, had it not had sarcoids.

I guess knowing enough to know the difference between conformation and confirmation, is perhaps a good start.

It is clear that you believe there is nothing wrong with this horse and you don't want to hear otherwise.

Good luck finding your magic girth.

I know about confirmation thank you

And did I say there was nothing wrong with him- no!

I am asking people for help not to have my horse slandered.

As you said you have never produced horses but I’m sure the producer who has would love your input seeing you know so much.

As there saying goes no one likes a know it all

Maybe the magic girth can go along with magic happy pills for yourself

 

[jo_wales_86]

This isn't particularly about conformation, it's about posture and compensatory movement patterns. Gillian Higgins, of Horses Inside Out, at her training for saddle fitters, said, and I quote:

"The vast majority of injuries in horses are the result of repetitive strain"

Horse start moving incorrectly for all sorts of reasons, conformation being only one of many, and the only one that 100% can't be corrected, only helped. The rest can all,.in the right circumstances, be improved massively if not corrected completely.

We CAN read these compensations in the body, in their musculature, their stance, their balance and posture. And he has some signs.

You can either blow us off with statements that he doesn't have any issues and we don't know what's ete talking about, or you can read up, spend some time on this,.and decide if there are better ways to help your horse than just a different girth

So many horses that were/are "fine" are absolutely not, show horses at the very top levels (hell, international GP dressage horses) are clearly in compensation and yet are winning at the top. It doesn't mean it's right, and it's definitely not horse-centred.

The reason I mentioned a girth is someone on here mentioned their horse did similar and someone said about a fleece girth helping another said about memory foam girth helping.

He has been vet checked it’s not like I’ve not looked into it: the way people are talking is as if I’ve not even bothered which I must say is hurtful so is the horse being slandered

 

[sbloom]

The reason I mentioned a girth is someone on here mentioned their horse did similar and someone said about a fleece girth helping another said about memory foam girth helping.

He has been vet checked it’s not like I’ve not looked into it: the way people are talking is as if I’ve not even bothered which I must say is hurtful so is the horse being slandered

Literally noone has said that. You're projecting, I understand why, we've all been through moments like this and it's not the nicest thing.

There are tons of people who have had several vets, physics and trainers tell them their horse is fine and yet eventually something is found. I've posted a lot about a particular customer horse that was dismissed as having only behavioural issues, months later diagnosed with ulcers but NO discussion about possible causes and then, after I saw him, she went back to the vet and eventually found 2-3 serious musculoskeletal.issues, but only when she put her foot down.

I see them regularly, ridiculous that in these cases it's
a saddle fitter that can finally help the owner get a diagnosis, but that's the way it is.

Hahahaha what an absolute tool YOU ARE

You really are a sad, pathetic individual aren’t you!!!

God you and your horses must be the most perfect things on this planet

Sad human being

Enough both of you. OP, everyone is trying to help, initially, but you'll see this board fast gets bored of people who only want the "right" answers and ignore proven expertise.