Follow on from potential PSSM threads

[poiuytrewq]

I've sent off a hair sample and its been received so hopefully will get results soon.

He's well rugged up since about 2 weeks ago and been on vitamin E since last Friday so not long I know. Question is those that said they noticed a change in their horses behaviour, How long was it before you could say the changes you made were definitely helping or vice versa please?

I had thought he seemed a bit more chilled but yesterday was just awful!

 

[SEL]

I've often wondered whether the ones that see a big difference on vitamin E were suffering from a deficiency - because I never really saw much change at all (& mine is diagnosed n/p1). But I do find a difference on selenium and we're very low here so I suspect that's part of my issue. I can also say I 100% know if I have under rugged these days, but at this time of year there is so much else going on (weather, hormones etc) that its hard to tell what drives the good vs bad days. My lot all slept in the wet part of their field last night so the PSSM mare was cold and grumpy this morning. I have 2 acres of dry field so why oh why they slept there I don't know......

Too much E can make them spooky so perhaps back off a bit if you think the behaviour is changing.

What was awful about yesterday?

 

[poiuytrewq]

It’s not changed really. He just hasn’t been quite as bad and has seemed a bit more chilled in the stable.
Yesterday horses went past the yard as I was going out. That’s always a definite setback and took a long time to settle him. Wasn’t too bad then until we split with our companion horse and rider to go back to our own yards.
I get the normal trying to canter home and getting silly, that’s fine. It happens I can usually settle him.
We were behind a hedge cutter, far enough away to not be a problem really but he became fixated on it. It stopped in our gateway (driver from our farm, knew where I was going and knows the horse!)
So we trotted on and suddenly i completely lost him. This has now happened twice in the past 3 weeks.
I did get him back to a slow canter but for a few minutes I did think this is it!
There was a car behind us which I’m assuming is the reason he went but the tractor driver said it stayed right back and gave us space, although imo it can’t have been too far back as it passed when I was in the gateway it’s no excuse either way. He’s fine in traffic.

I feel a bit like I’ve got away with knowing I can hold him when he’s silly, but now twice I haven’t so that’s changed to I can get him back when he go’s
I’m just wondering what’s the next step!

 

[SEL]

Are you giving any magnesium? My mare doesn't need much but a scoop a day does tend to keep her brain focusing. She's been on antibiotics for the past week and I haven't add the MagOx because I didn't want to upset her stomach more and she is a lot more jumpy. When she was in work I had her on a slippery elm based herbal supplement full time and I think managing her gut did help with the unpredictable behaviour.

 

[scats]

Polly has been a nightmare this last couple of days, but it’s the clock change.
I’ve changed to riding Millie in the morning and Polly gets very stuck in her ways so she had an epic meltdown on Sunday when I took Millie to be ridden. She box walked, screaming her head off, so tremendously that I had to remove her whole bed and start again, as it was simply a black mush.
I’m now having to muck her out before I ride Millie, and throw her bed up and leave her on rubber mats, as she’s still having meltdowns about it. My experience tells me that she will settle down in a week, once she gets her head around the new routine.
Honestly, such has been her ridiculousness that if someone had offered to shoot her yesterday, I’d have gladly let them!

 

[Hormonal Filly]

How much vit E is he on?

My mare has been on pea protein for a week now at 250g a day. I increased her vitamin E to 8,000 a week ago (from 4,000) but haven’t noticed any difference at all. Might drop it back down again (would I of noticed a difference by now?)

My mare is very chilled, not spooky at all and nothing phases her. Easy to load and travel. She is super chilled and laid back. Part of me wonders, although her CK is slightly high.. if it is just her personality.

It seems a lot of muscle myopathy horses are unpredictable or spooky etc.

 

[poiuytrewq]

Polly has been a nightmare this last couple of days, but it’s the clock change.
I’ve changed to riding Millie in the morning and Polly gets very stuck in her ways so she had an epic meltdown on Sunday when I took Millie to be ridden. She box walked, screaming her head off, so tremendously that I had to remove her whole bed and start again, as it was simply a black mush.
I’m now having to muck her out before I ride Millie, and throw her bed up and leave her on rubber mats, as she’s still having meltdowns about it. My experience tells me that she will settle down in a week, once she gets her head around the new routine.
Honestly, such has been her ridiculousness that if someone had offered to shoot her yesterday, I’d have gladly let them!

Oh god I do know that feeling
Would
You like me to dispatch the horse madam

Yup, I’ll
Load him up for you

 

[poiuytrewq]

He’s not on magnesium no, simply because before I posted here and PSSM was suggested I think I’d tried magnesium in every form previously with no results at all.

I’m not sure off the top of my head. I followed the dosage instructions on the bag at the higher dose to start. It’s 3 tiny scoops a day.

 

[catembi]

Unfortunately, different things work for different horses. I gave up on all supplements for mine (full TB, p2/p3/px) because nothing made a difference. Triaminos are supposed to be the bedrock of PSSM supplementation but they sent him absolutely loopy & usually he is RDA/police horse laid back. Now that he's on Dantrolene & back in work, I got all enthusiastic & started his supplements again & after a couple of weeks, he went loopy. He was in his stable on very high alert staring & snorting at nothing, as if someone had turned a load of pigs out in the field. He does weave anyway, but he was weaving himself absolutely silly. I stopped the supplements again & his behaviour gradually returned to laid back over the following 4 days.

I *think* that the culprits were either chelated magnesium or natural vit E. Not sure which as I took him off everything at the same time because his behaviour was so extreme. He is back on the pea protein as px really needs that & so far, no loopiness.

So my point being that it's all a lottery as what really, really works for some people, such as Lamicore which has devoted followers, really really *doesn't* work for others. Lamicore made mine a lot worse & I thought he was going to colic. (He isn't normally colicky.) So stopped it & sold the rest of the tub to a Lamicore devotee!

If you're on FB, there are several groups with some really knowledgeable people. But even with something like vit E, some horses can't tolerate it (possibly mine), some need 10,000 iU to get an effect, some can't tolerate more than 5,000 iU without going spooky...

I will wish you good luck as all of us with PSSMs need it, and I hope that you have your results soon.

 

[scats]

Oh god I do know that feeling
Would
You like me to dispatch the horse madam

Yup, I’ll
Load him up for you

Honestly, I’ve tried to psycho analyse this horse so many times.
In desperation, I got an animal communicator out once, who walked in the stable, walked back out again and told me “there’s no way she’s going to tell me anything, she’s giving the same energy that autistic children give off”
And that was that.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

@catembi have any of your selenium levels been tested? I’ve just read a lot of horses are low on selenium in the UK.

I’ve asked my vet to test my mares levels and bought some selenium to try, even at a reduced dosage to see if it makes any difference.

 

[catembi]

Mine is back in work atm! The Dantrolene is really working for us. We did a hard 30 min dressage lesson today at lunchtime! I have ordered some Hempine CBD as I would like him mooooore forward but atm we are in a good place & hoping to do a dressage comp shortly! (Don't tell him I said that or he will self-harm/have a relapse...)

 

[Pippity]

The behaviour was nothing to do with my diagnosis, but it took about a week on 8000iu of vitamin E for her muscles to soften.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Mine is back in work atm! The Dantrolene is really working for us. We did a hard 30 min dressage lesson today at lunchtime! I have ordered some Hempine CBD as I would like him mooooore forward but atm we are in a good place & hoping to do a dressage comp shortly! (Don't tell him I said that or he will self-harm/have a relapse...)

Just so I can read it all in one post and I’m so glad he is doing well. But what were his symptoms?

My vet is very ‘on it’ with muscle myopathys and really doesn’t think my mare looks a standard case. Not saying she isn’t, but just exploring other options.

Spoke to him today, apparently a selenium test is difficult because other minerals show in the same result. He’s said to try her on a selenium supplement and see if it makes a difference. She is on so many supplements now!

 

[Rowreach]

What Catembi said ^^^

It really is trial and error, but changes (good and bad) tend to happen quite quickly. Mine is worse this week (time of year) but will be better by mid November.

Are you feeding any salt? That can be a magical thing.

Mine can't tolerate magnesium in any form.

 

[ycbm]

Just so I can read it all in one post and I’m so glad he is doing well. But what were his symptoms?

My vet is very ‘on it’ with muscle myopathys and really doesn’t think my mare looks a standard case. Not saying she isn’t, but just exploring other options.

Spoke to him today, apparently a selenium test is difficult because other minerals show in the same result. He’s said to try her on a selenium supplement and see if it makes a difference. She is on so many supplements now!

Forageplus do selenium yeast you don't need a supplement with it in. Dose rate is TINY.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Forageplus so selenium yeast you don't need a supplement with it in. Dose rate is TINY.

Thanks ycbm. Ordered some, being delivered tomorrow

 

[ycbm]

It's very toxic, do measure carefully. 0.5g a day is enough for most horses, that's not even a pinch.
.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

It's very toxic, do measure carefully. 0.5g a day is enough for most horses, that's not even a pinch.
.

Thanks for the heads up Will go very careful.. our location is at 0/minimal level for selenium on the map. I doubt it’s something that simple but would be nice.

*sorry to hijack this thread! Look forward to knowing your result OP and how your horse goes.

 

[catembi]

His main symptom was getting slower & slower, & really feeling that he had the handbrake on. He got very cross if even lightly tapped with the whip. In the end, I was only doing 20 minutes in walk with him once or twice a month to see how he was. He'd do 4-5 strides of trot if made to, but sometimes he would just throw his head up & not trot at all. A bit tricky to pick feet out - the front legs he stretches out like a Spanish walk sort of step & the back leg he stretches right back before he will hold them nicely to be picked up. He also went spooky & unpredictable when usually he is very steady & laid back.

My other ex racer is p3/px so one fewer variant. P3 is the gastric one...he really hates being touched & is girthy. He prefers to walk but will do a lap of the arena on each rein in trot & canter & will also jump tiny jumps. This is unmedicated.

My Dartmoor is p4. She went very sharp & spooky & I started getting dumped off a lot. She has no wither, so when she spun, the saddle would just slip. Then when I asked for trot, she halted instead. That is a PSSM red flag.

Anyway, I hope that helps a bit.

 

[planete]

I am beginning to wonder whether anybody has ever tested for PSSM2 and got a completely clear result? I am not trying to be controversial but am genuinely curious about the possibility of all horses perhaps having one or more of these genetic variants. I am worried some research has focused exclusively on these variants and we are missing some very important parts of the puzzle because of it.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

I am beginning to wonder whether anybody has ever tested for PSSM2 and got a completely clear result? I am not trying to be controversial but am genuinely curious about the possibility of all horses perhaps having one or more of these genetic variants.

I’ve seen a handful on the Facebook page that are negative for all variants. My gelding which was very clearly a muscle myopathy type came back negative for all variants.

My vet told me to disregard the genetic P2 testing. He believes only firm way to confirm is by biopsy but I know there has already been posts on the forum about this. Some members are for, some against. The testing hasn’t been peer reviewed, so who knows if the variants mean anything or not.

I know lots respond to diet, but on the PSSM page I think a lot of horses have other issues (lameness, ulcers) but they tend to jump to PSSM. I guess pain symptoms can be similar across the board..

 

[SEL]

I am beginning to wonder whether anybody has ever tested for PSSM2 and got a completely clear result? I am not trying to be controversial but am genuinely curious about the possibility of all horses perhaps having one or more of these genetic variants. I am worried some research has focused exclusively on these variants and we are missing some very important parts of the puzzle because of it.

I've got a few friends

One has a cob who you'd have thought was a guarantee type 1 but tested negative years ago. She'd retired him but did the type 2 tests to give herself some closure over his issues - completely clear panel.

Two Dales owners clear across the board (there is also one on the PSSM forum with a positive biopsy but clear genetics).

Saying that I'm still on the fence wishing they'd do more research. K1 and P8 in particular are life shortening in humans and yet I know horses doing ok with the variant - just not convinced it all ties together

 

[I'm Dun]

Type 2 PSSM is a minefield. The testing is very hit and miss, so is muscle biopsy. And theres no real treatment by supplements alonne. Vitamin e doesnt seem to work in a lot of cases with type 2.

Mine was different in 48hours and unrecognisable in 2 weeks, but she was textbook type 1.

 

[catembi]

I think that there's more to it than has currently been discovered, because of the huge variance in what works/doesn't work. I think that there's 'something else' that when discovered would link together everything known so far into a more coherent whole.

But in the meantime, we all want our horses to be comfortable and rideable, so all we can do is use what's known at the moment, and the vast wealth of others' experiences, and muddle through as best we can.

Talking of which, my hempine has come this afternoon so I have started using it.

For all the controversy over the type 2 test, mine has tested p2/p3/px, he is being treated with Dantrolene which is the current treatment for type 2/MIM, it's effective and he's back in work. Which to me is a lot better than NOT testing & spending years getting him tested for everything else under the sun & finding nothing, which is what happened with Adrian & Trev. Thousands spent on scintigraphy, xrays, neuro work-ups, etc etc & nothing found. This was before the type 2 test existed. If the test had existed when Trev was young & he had come up p3/px, then I wouldn't have put him through ks surgery which was very painful for him and (unsurprisingly from what I know now) made zero difference.

 

[ycbm]

Thankfully the vets are getting much more informed about muscle myopathy now, and forums are right on top of it, so people floundering around in the dark testing for one thing after another are getting more rare. That makes the flawed type 2 genetic testing even less sensible to rely on, imo. Horses that test clear with positive biopsy, horse that test positive never getting symptomatic. Horses that are symptomatic in one home but not in another. It simply can't be trusted and it certainly isn't the full picture.

I'm reasonably sure in retrospect that Ludo was type 2, which never showed apart from needing higher levels of vitamin E than other horses to maintain his weight in winter. Then he was taken out of work because of his wonky bones he pretty much collapsed, physically. Being a spotty I had been looking for it all along, he tested negative for type 1, but he was asymptomatic while in regular (but not daily) work.
.

 

[poiuytrewq]

I will but selenium.
If the tests come back negative and I’m seeing no improvement on supplements and trying to manage him as pssm though I’m currently considering calling it a day.
I work 7 days a week to afford this and after two years of trying to like and enjoy him it’s not really happening.
If he’s apparently healthy and sound I think I’ve decided, it’s probably time to give up. That’s a really awful thing, I’ve never done it before but I think he’s just not the horse for me.

 

[Rowreach]

Just another general word of warning to anyone considering supplementing with selenium, check the ingredients (online not on packaging) of everything else you are feeding because they do like to sneak it into things.

 

[poiuytrewq]

Just another general word of warning to anyone considering supplementing with selenium, check the ingredients (online not on packaging) of everything else you are feeding because they do like to sneak it into things.

I did worry a bit about that. My balancer contains a small amount. I did work it out the other day, it’s not the recommended amount though and I’m trying dropping the balancer all together anyway.

I’m reply to your above, he does get salt yes, not enough though.
He had a rock hanging in the stable which I swear he’s never even looked at and I put about a teaspoon in each feed x2 a day.
I keep trying to up it but as soon as I do he stops eating!
I also bought some electrolytes but same story really.

 

[lynz88]

His main symptom was getting slower & slower, & really feeling that he had the handbrake on. He got very cross if even lightly tapped with the whip. In the end, I was only doing 20 minutes in walk with him once or twice a month to see how he was. He'd do 4-5 strides of trot if made to, but sometimes he would just throw his head up & not trot at all. A bit tricky to pick feet out - the front legs he stretches out like a Spanish walk sort of step & the back leg he stretches right back before he will hold them nicely to be picked up. He also went spooky & unpredictable when usually he is very steady & laid back.

mine was like this and turned out to be hock arthritis (he's weird)