Follow on thread: post good un-shod/barefoot pics please

[spookypony]

*bump*

 

[trina1982]

Some background first...

3 weeks later

right now:

Thank you for taking the pics

So this (i hope!) is the same foot. We have to remember these are pics taken in a moment of time and can be deceptive (incidentally, does she ever stand square - she seems to point the foot you taking a pic of, is she a diva? lol) but i think they are interesting all the same.
I'm certainly no expert, but i think your horse knows what she is doing.

As an aside - my friends horse was pts with severe arthritus in his hock a few years back. When looking back through photos with her, we noticed in every single pic he stood with that particular hind leg forward underneath him. She never noticed it in 'real life', and he was never lame as such, just stiff. I tend now never to underestimate what their posture tells you. Could be nothing, but it could be something. Worth just mentally taking note of their 'habits'.

Do you follow the Rockley blog, the post yesterday made me think of your horse
http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2012/02/do-twist.html

Will follow your story with interest (if you'll keep us updated please!)

Trina x

 

[trina1982]

This could be interesting! This horse had her shoes taken off 4 1/2 months ago and her fronts were x rayed recently (if anyone can guess what her problem is, I'll be very impressed!)

Right fore

Left fore

I don't have any of here hinds, but she hasn't been shod behind for years and years. If anyone wants to see the x rays, PM me

I'm going to 'say what i see'

Right fore, there is flare (the true line of the hoof changes about an inch down, so compromised laminae?). I also think the hairline on this hoof looks uneven. The crack also makes me think there is some sort of pressure at the toe?

Left fore, this looks like the balance is out? The joint above it doesn't seem to match up, and the hoof wall lengths are disimilar. The coronet looks high on the right hand side too, i think. Looking at the wear at the bottom of the hoof it isn't even.

As for diagnosis, i'll leave that to someone who has a clue

Trina x

 

[trina1982]

Rosehip, your horses feet are very interesting. What happened to cause the big change we see.
I'm interested to know about the sole aswell - anyone care to share what they think? I wondered if it was false sole but i may be way off the mark.

Trina x

 

[Rosehip]

Trina, The only thing I can think of that has caused the massive change is that she wass medicated for bone spavin, so has steriods, tildren and several sedations within abiut 4 weeks. Othere than that, as far as her management was concerned nothing has changed!Thats why on the day I took the pics I looked down at her feet and went "argh, code red"!! It was like I was looking at another horses feet, frightened the life out of me!
With regards the sole, I got my farrier to come back (she had only been trimmed 2 weeks in the pics) and he took her toes right back etc in a hard lami trim, and also took half an inch of false sole off- even he said Oh my God, did I actually trim her last time, he couldnt believe the change in her foot!
Ive wracked my brains to think what could have caused it, but have drawn a blank! What sort of thing would you be looking at Trina? xx

 

[forestfantasy]

Hi Trina,

Yes they are the same foot
I think she knows what she's doing too - the difference since the shoes being taken off is amazing, almost to the point where i'm ashamed that i didn't do something sooner - i knew it wasn't right deep down. Again - thank gor for HHO!!
On another note, I can't say i've noticed the foot pointing until recently ( towards the end with shoes on & since they have been off more so)
Hopefully this will change as the new feet grow - time will tell i guess!
Oh and i shall definitely keep you all updated
Thanks again
Here are some more square pics! (well fronts at least!)

 

[trina1982]

Trina, The only thing I can think of that has caused the massive change is that she wass medicated for bone spavin, so has steriods, tildren and several sedations within abiut 4 weeks. Othere than that, as far as her management was concerned nothing has changed!Thats why on the day I took the pics I looked down at her feet and went "argh, code red"!! It was like I was looking at another horses feet, frightened the life out of me!
With regards the sole, I got my farrier to come back (she had only been trimmed 2 weeks in the pics) and he took her toes right back etc in a hard lami trim, and also took half an inch of false sole off- even he said Oh my God, did I actually trim her last time, he couldnt believe the change in her foot!
Ive wracked my brains to think what could have caused it, but have drawn a blank! What sort of thing would you be looking at Trina? xx

So, am I right the pics were from last year? Summer time?
That big event line must have grown out by now, so what do the feet look like now?
Is she sound?

I have an interest in bare hooves, but i am certainly no expert. All I would suggest it just to ask yourself questions as to why things are the way they are.
So, for example, the big event line on that hoof is halfway down - indicating an event at least 3 months before that pic (i think ).
The hoof growing in after that event has lots of small vertical cracks, compared to the hoof below it (which has a few horizontal event lines).
Thats not a coincidence, something has changed. Get your detectives hat on

Have you tried posting on the UKNHCP forum. There are very knowledgeable people on there who may help you get to the bottom of it, they will certainly help you 'think outside the box' a little. As I said, i have an interest - definately does not make me an expert!

I find it very interesting that this thread is not achieving much attention. I was looking forward to sitting back and learning!! Not blathering on making myself look stupid, lol!

Trina x

 

[Rosehip]

So, am I right the pics were from last year? Summer time?
That big event line must have grown out by now, so what do the feet look like now?
Is she sound?

I have an interest in bare hooves, but i am certainly no expert. All I would suggest it just to ask yourself questions as to why things are the way they are.
So, for example, the big event line on that hoof is halfway down - indicating an event at least 3 months before that pic (i think ).
The hoof growing in after that event has lots of small vertical cracks, compared to the hoof below it (which has a few horizontal event lines).
Thats not a coincidence, something has changed. Get your detectives hat on

Have you tried posting on the UKNHCP forum. There are very knowledgeable people on there who may help you get to the bottom of it, they will certainly help you 'think outside the box' a little. As I said, i have an interest - definately does not make me an expert!

I find it very interesting that this thread is not achieving much attention. I was looking forward to sitting back and learning!! Not blathering on making myself look stupid, lol!

Trina x

Yes, absolutely, she went down with chronic low grade lami (or rather was diagnosed with it) in June last year. She is now sound as a pound in front, but is still 1/10th - 2/10th lame behind due to her bone spavin. The vet thinks that she had a bout of lami in March of last year (2011) which went un-noticed :rolleyes I dont think so!! As a prior cushings/lami owner Im fanatical about pulses and any signs of lami!
The vet took blood to test for IR/EMS - both of us were convinced she would be, but everything came back clear.
The only thing I can think of that changed during 2010/2011 that could possibly show on the feet was that I put them both (her and my broodie) on TopSpec Anti-Lam as I felt both of them needed additional nutritional support.
She has had the same farrier for over 2 years, and he was shocked at her feet too.
This is a video of how she was moving at the time - I initially suspected an abcess in the heal of the LF, and shoulder trauma, but the vet disregarded both of those immediately.



And this is how she was stood on her feet:

I dont understand how Oberon, Cyptyres et al arent all over this thread!

Im really appreciating your insight Trina, thank you very much!! You are talking absolute sense to me! Ill have a look at the site you mention xx

 

[cptrayes]

I'm watching, but again I would say that a good barefoot foot is the one that the horse is sound on. I'm not keen on joining in "guess what's wrong with this horse" games when the owner already knows, and I'm also very aware that it is easy to criticise a foot only to be told that the horse has been barefoot all its life and does 20 mile fun rides before breakfast .

If anyone has problems, I will gladly make suggestions for what might be wrong, but other than that, there is no "wrong" barefoot on a sound horse, in my book.

 

[ThePony]

lol, was just about to say the same as cptrayes! If the feet are working for the horse, then it is a dangerous game to try and find fault - the horse knows what it needs better than anyone looking at a pic! The heel height discussion above proves this well. You might be able to mention a change of angle down the hoof wall or the possibility of thrush from a pic - but you could only muse on the possible causes and solutions though.

 

[Rosehip]

I do take your point Cyptrayes & yourpony, as I completely agree with you - my little mare has the wierdest little feet, with a horrid flare on them that shows about 2 weeks after trimming, but she is (touch so much wood) sounds as a bell and always has been, so although many people would go oh god look at them, they work for her. However, with Melly and the pictures I have posted of her I would dearly love some guidance and help with them! Im on my way to take pics of her feet today to put on, and will give you a full run down of her feed etc if you like too?
But any advice you can give me with her I'd be really really grateful!!!
What do you guys think of the vid? xx

 

[Rosehip]

Piccys!!!
They arent brillinat quality I'm afraid, between my friends stiff neck, and my op preventing me from grubbing around on the floor we havent quite got the angles right, and I havent scrubbed her feet, but I think you get the generral jist

Near Fore:

And Off Fore:

Hope they are ok x

 

[Oberon]

I dont understand how Oberon, Cyptyres et al arent all over this thread!

I am enjoying looking at the pics but keep forgetting to take my camera down to the yard

 

[Rosehip]

I am enjoying looking at the pics but keep forgetting to take my camera down to the yard

Ahhhhhhh I see!

Would you have any insights into Mellys feet? I so want to learn more about hooves, but get so far and then hit a blank again!

Oh, I was going to put her feed down wasnt it....

AM
250g Fast Fibre
1 Stubbs scoop (approx 300g) HiFi Lite

PM
250g Fast Fibre
1 Stubbs Scoop HiFi Lite
1 measure Mobile Mover, 1 Measure Equivite Original, 1 measure Magnitude

She is out 24/7 on (at the moment) poor pasture, with 2 nets per day of fair, pretty course, hay, about 7lb each.
In the summer she only has 1 feed a day, of the same FF but half the HiFi Lite, and is restricted in her grazing. If she is needing to shed any weight she is restricted to a 20x40 bare paddock and has soaked hay to supplement her fibre intake.

Would you change/add anything to this diet? She is a retired paddock ornament xx

 

[trina1982]

Ok, so purely as an observation - might mean something, might not, (insert relevant i'm not qualified disclaimer here ) comparing the two pics the point of the frog looks to have moved in relation to the foot. In the top pic there is more sole to the right of the frog than the left, like the frog is skewed?
Again, just an observation, but thought it interesting. Has your mare been barefoot a long time, or is this perhaps the foot readjusting after shoes, or injury...or...just a hoof being dynamic and clever If she is sound, then it's all good, whatever the foot looks like.
Thanks for taking time to post pics (that goes for everyone on this thread) - i'm sure there are plenty looking at them and appreciating them, even if they have no comment to make ).
Trina x

 

[Rosehip]

You have good eyes Trina! yes, her frog was skewed, again, that seemed to be a sudden onset just like the appearance of the massive event line and the heals running under. Its so wierd, one day her feet weere normal, the next they were like the 1st set of pics! Im not the best owner in the world, but I swear I would have noticed that colossal change....Im sure I would, and yet I somehow didnt! Makes me question everything!
Mels has - as far as I know - only ever been shod once in her life. When I bought her in 2008 she hadnt had her feet touched for approx 2 years, and had been owned by the people for around 4 years. I kept her unshod until she was diagnosed with Bone Spavin in 2009/2010 and then was pursuaded to have front shoes put on her so that when I was hacking her as part of her treatment she wouldnt get footsore. She hated being shod, slipped and had a strange gait, I had them taken off again after about a month, and since then she hasnt been near shoes. My other girl is also unshod, I think if they can be sound without shoes, then there is no point putting them on.

Sorry, rambling completely, and somewhat Hijacking the thread!! x

 

[nikkimariet]

OK, my turn!

These pictures are all of the left fore. The first 3 were taken shortly after I got the pony. He had not been seen by a farrier in about 6 months
(previous owners had been unable to catch him for farrier), and had developed very long, flared feet, with a rather huge crack in one hind.
A farrier trimmed him just before he came, and these pics were taken at his first barefoot trimmer appointment, some weeks after his arrival.

The second 3 were taken 6 months later, to chart progress. They are almost 3 years old now. The feet have continued to improve since then.

Spookypony that is one amazing change! Was he sound with the flare?

 

[spookypony]

Spookypony that is one amazing change! Was he sound with the flare?

He was, yes! And he's always had a text-book heel-first landing. The "after" frontal pic, you may notice, isn't taken from head-on, but from slightly above. He still has a little flare going in that pic, but much less. Interestingly, while the trimmer initially tried to encourage the medial flare (on both fores) to go away completely, she is not so concerned about it now. He had a trim today, and she showed me how his heels are level and his sole well-shaped, even though the hoof is a decidedly wonky shape. She thinks that it's the shape he needs to compensate for somewhat wonky forelegs. He gets trimmed at 4 or 5-weekly intervals, and each time, the medial flare is apparent.

 

[Rosehip]

Its absolutely fascinating that your lad could be sound with that amount of medial flare Spookypony! And just as fascinating that he is still sound now that the flare has been taken back so much! Are the other 3 feet 'normal' or do they have flares too?? x

 

[spookypony]

Its absolutely fascinating that your lad could be sound with that amount of medial flare Spookypony! And just as fascinating that he is still sound now that the flare has been taken back so much! Are the other 3 feet 'normal' or do they have flares too?? x

Both his fronts have a bit of this wonkyness going on, but his hinds look really normal.

 

[Oberon]

He was, yes! And he's always had a text-book heel-first landing. The "after" frontal pic, you may notice, isn't taken from head-on, but from slightly above. He still has a little flare going in that pic, but much less. Interestingly, while the trimmer initially tried to encourage the medial flare (on both fores) to go away completely, she is not so concerned about it now. He had a trim today, and she showed me how his heels are level and his sole well-shaped, even though the hoof is a decidedly wonky shape. She thinks that it's the shape he needs to compensate for somewhat wonky forelegs. He gets trimmed at 4 or 5-weekly intervals, and each time, the medial flare is apparent.

"If you trim something off and it pops back up by the time you come back, the horse needed it there." Pete Ramey.

 

[nikkimariet]

"If you trim something off and it pops back up by the time you come back, the horse needed it there." Pete Ramey.

Very fitting!

 

[Rosehip]

Thats the way I view Seren's feet - her feet can look horrible when she is due a trim as she flares so much, but I can guarantee that within 3/4 weeks the flare will be back. We tried trimming her every 5/6 weeks, but it made her sore, so now I leave both her and Mels upto 10weeks, and she has never shown signs of sorness since.
Ill have to get some proper pics, but these were taken after she foaled and was due a trim - note the massive flare - she was trotting and cantering on very firm ground with no problems at all.

And How she stands on them:

Ill have to get some better ones of her feet for this thread!

 

[cptrayes]

One of my favourite "good barefoot" pictures for you.

My hunter's foot.

And the shoe that came off it 3 months before. Check the nail holes in the shoe - it is not physically possible to reattach that shoe.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-6Ozz9sR8GT8/T0fOytjhTAI/AAAAAAAAA2w/K0U_EJYJ0e0/s1600/radarsfoot.jpg

 

[cptrayes]

Thats the way I view Seren's feet - her feet can look horrible when she is due a trim as she flares so much, but I can guarantee that within 3/4 weeks the flare will be back. We tried trimming her every 5/6 weeks, but it made her sore, so now I leave both her and Mels upto 10weeks, and she has never shown signs of sorness since.
Ill have to get some proper pics, but these were taken after she foaled and was due a trim - note the massive flare - she was trotting and cantering on very firm ground with no problems at all.

Rosehip this is why I am not commenting much. I'm sure you won't take offence if I say that in those photos your mare's feet look appallingly trimmed and badly metabolically compromised.

And yet she is trimmed by a trimmer who really knows his stuff, and she is sound. Go figure, eh ?

 

[Rosehip]

Rosehip this is why I am not commenting much. I'm sure you won't take offence if I say that in those photos your mare's feet look appallingly trimmed and badly metabolically compromised.

And yet she is trimmed by a trimmer who really knows his stuff, and she is sound. Go figure, eh ?

Actually thats very interesting Cptrayes, the pictures of Seren were taken the same week as the pictures of Melly on this thread, and I took them because I was freaking out that her P3 was going to fall through her sole! She was never lame and at the time not showing a pulse though. Approx 2 months before she foaled - so March (ish) 2011 - she did have a bounding pulse and was 'pottery' so she was immediately barned and went onto Top Spec Antilam instead of the stud ration she was previously on. The vet and my farrier put it down to the weight and pressure of a massive foal, and within a week she was back to 'normal'.

I wish I knew more about metabolic issues, and what I need to be looking for! xx

 

[spookypony]

OK, took some new pictures today! The pony is currently sound, went for a 2hr20min hack today. The first set is of the left fore, where the point of interest is the medial flare. I've put the some of the old pictures again, for comparison.

Left fore, front view, when he arrived 3.5 years ago. This pic was taken a few weeks after farrier trim, before which he had not been trimmed for 6 months.

Left fore, current front view, showing wonky shape of foot. This seems to be how he wants his foot to grow.

Left fore, current side view. Excuse the mud!:

Left fore, top view after 6 months of trimming:

Left fore, current top view:

For comparison, here's his left hind, currently. It also wants to flare medially, but it's far less pronounced than the fore. His toe had really shot forward since his last trim! Excuse the mud all over the foot. I wish I had an old pic of this one: it had a spectacular crack most of the way up.

 

[Rosehip]

Wow spookypony! They are some really wonky feet! But they look solid as a rock, and in lovely condition! My 36year old welshy had the same medial flare to his hind feet in his latter years, which we put down to the way his hind legs bowed out as he got older. Obviously thats not the case in your boys case, but it makes you wonder why he wants to grow feet like that, and how he stays sound on them!!x

Cyptrayes, that pic of your hunter is fascinating!! I always assumed that when a horse comes out of shoes their feet expand and spread to obtain their natural balance, but your pic shows that his foot has tightened. Really interesting! x

 

[amandaco2]

Rosehip this is why I am not commenting much. I'm sure you won't take offence if I say that in those photos your mare's feet look appallingly trimmed and badly metabolically compromised.

And yet she is trimmed by a trimmer who really knows his stuff, and she is sound. Go figure, eh ?

i agree..............

 

[Rosehip]

Which bit do you agree with? Bad trimming....metabolic.....shes sound on wierd feet...??
If anyone wants to PM me rather than put something on an open thread please please do! I have noticed that everyone comments on the shod thread, but not many people are on here. I know that whatever the shape of the foot, of the horse is sound then it cant be a bad trim...but hell, even with rose tinted glasses and a loyalty to my (frankly wonderful) farrier, I can see that someting went hellish wrong with both of my mares at the same point last year, and I have absolutely no idea why! x