Follow on thread: post good un-shod/barefoot pics please

[cptrayes]

Rosehip the "shoe" of horn and sole callous around your horses foot is normally only found on horses with very sensitive soles. I find it interesting that you have it without foot sensitivity. The top inch and a half of foot looks typical of the kind of quality produced by horses with huge insulin levels too, but your horse is happy and healthy. She's a complete barefoot conundrum!

 

[cptrayes]

Cyptrayes, that pic of your hunter is fascinating!! I always assumed that when a horse comes out of shoes their feet expand and spread to obtain their natural balance, but your pic shows that his foot has tightened. Really interesting! x

The other way is more common, that's for sure. He's a very big horse and I think that the farrier just assumed that his feet were meant to be that big and shod the foot he saw. But his action in them was a shambles and I bought him in spite of it, not because of it.

As soon as he was put into work (I bought him as an unbroken 6 year old) and fed a good diet, that's what happened. He still has very big feet, but in proportion with a 17 hand middleweight horse and not the Shire feet his grandmother had

 

[Rosehip]

Really really interesting Cyptrayes, I know a farrier who bullnoses, makes the foot fit the shoe and yet is very very highly thought of around these parts, I wouldnt have him touch my horses!! I have never seen a foot go back from a shoe like that before - did all 4 do that?

Which one of my girls do you mean re high insulin levels? Ive had Melly (big black hooves) tested, but not Seren (Little wonky white hooves!!) do you think I should have her tested? So sorry for completely hijacking this thread - should I PM you instead? I dont want to bug you!!x

 

[cptrayes]

Really really interesting Cyptrayes, I know a farrier who bullnoses, makes the foot fit the shoe and yet is very very highly thought of around these parts, I wouldnt have him touch my horses!! I have never seen a foot go back from a shoe like that before - did all 4 do that?

Which one of my girls do you mean re high insulin levels? Ive had Melly (big black hooves) tested, but not Seren (Little wonky white hooves!!) do you think I should have her tested? So sorry for completely hijacking this thread - should I PM you instead? I dont want to bug you!!x

Yes, all four of his feet tightened up with work but the back two had never been shod so they weren't as bad. Some farriers seem to deliberately allow feet to spread, maybe because it gives them more room to put the nails into.

I have another horse who was similar, not as extreme, but I didn't take photos of him. In horses I have owned it's been about 30/20/50 smaller/stayed the same/bigger. The big horses seem to be the ones whose feet spread in shoes most, but I'm judging from a very small sample so trimmers who see lots might have more to say on that.

Your white horse's feet seem to have very rough surface for the first inch and a half, including the coronet band. To me, that looks suspicious and I see something very similar on a friend's brood mare which has sky high insulin levels. Her horse is unsound though, so you do not have level of problem that she has.

 

[Rosehip]

Ahhh, that clarifies things! Ta! Ill take some piccys of Serens feet tonight, its almost a year since those pics were taken, so it will be a good comparrison
They are both paddock sound in all paces, but neither of them have been out of the field for 6months - wheres that embarrassed smiley?!! - but I assume they would be sound on concrete, I have no reason to think otherwise! xx

 

[Rosehip]

Updated pics of Seren - the broodie!!

Left Fore:

Right Fore:

Sorry they arent flat to the floor, and a bit blurry....basically pants..... Im only 2 weeks out of a hysterectomy, so shouldnt really be grubbing round on the floor! lol!
Im still a bit concerned about the lump at the toe area (I think theres a bit of shavings near it,,,let me see if there is a better pic!) It looks like the remnants of the large amount of sole that seems to be poking out in the pictures before. If that makes sense!

Nope...all the other pics are too dark, sorry! x

 

[cptrayes]

They look completely different. Did she have a foal meanwhile? My friend with the IR mare has been told that if only she can get it into foal, that will most likely sort out its IR problems with the "work" that carrying a foal will give her body.

The piece of shedding sole is absolutely typical of a horse with sensitive soles which grew a protective false sole callous which it shed when it no longer needed it. I can show you photos of two the same if I can find them..

Here we go - an extreme case, IR horse, complete false sole callous shed when he was given a no-grass diet and his feet hardened up:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_IaGqwoQlnmA/S6SUx_sDsxI/AAAAAAAAAog/k2BRKL9bLSg/s1600-h/PICT0132.JPG

 

[Rosehip]

Thanks Cyptrayes, yes, she was 9/10months preg in the 1st pics, and the foal is now nearly 9 months old, everything about her has improved since foaling, she seems a more robust pony in all ways, and her feet have never looked better. The farrier commented last time that her feet have harded up and that shis is starting to get some concavity back to her feet. They went very flat and very flared in the last couple of months gestation.

That pic is fab, is the foot that is coming away no longer needed by the horse and that is why it is coming off?
Fascinating!!

 

[Irishdan]

This is my OHs 3 year old Rocky Mountain horses feet which he has been trimming himself since last October. She has incredibly strong, touch hooves - even more so than our donkey. Any advise/critque welcomed

 

[Rosehip]

They look like beautiful feet Irishdan! Really strong and in lovely balance. The wellies in those pics are also fascinating me!! Im sooo easily distracted! Haha! Running the risk of sounding stupid, what is a rocky mountain horse?

 

[cptrayes]

Thanks Cyptrayes, yes, she was 9/10months preg in the 1st pics, and the foal is now nearly 9 months old, everything about her has improved since foaling, she seems a more robust pony in all ways, and her feet have never looked better. The farrier commented last time that her feet have harded up and that shis is starting to get some concavity back to her feet. They went very flat and very flared in the last couple of months gestation.

That pic is fab, is the foot that is coming away no longer needed by the horse and that is why it is coming off?
Fascinating!!

That's right. the false sole is a sort of "bandaid" that they produce very fast to prevent them hurting themselves. Some horses produce a 10p of it right over the point of the pedal bone. When it isn't needed any more, because the whole sole has got stronger, it peels off just like you can see.

I don't want to teach you to suck eggs, and can't remember what you posted about how you already manage her and tea is ready so I don't have time to look right now , but unless she is in foal again then you probably need to be watch out for the foot quality issues starting again, particularly with the grass that is already growing. The curent advice seems to be that the simplest way to keep on top of IR is at least 30 minutes exercise a day.

The "more robust in all ways" could be because excess insulin is like having a permanent hangover, it compromises the liver, the skin, the feet and from one I owned it can even cause them to have sweet itch.

 

[Saluqihounds]

Irishdan's O/H here.

Thanks Rosehip, she does have incredible feet, really hard hoof wall compared to our Welsh Cob and even our Donkey, you can really feel the difference when rasping! She has great concavity as well, it's also great her being only 3 this summer she has never be shod so has not had any of the negative effects of shoeing.

A Rocky Mountain Horse is a North American gaited breed Meaning she does a natural 4 beat ambling gait which is incredibly smooth riding, they are the ultimate trail/traveling horse.

"The breed is best known for gentleness. It is an easy keeper and a wonderful riding horse with a strong heart and endurance. Many of the horses are descendents of Tobe, a stallion owned by Sam Tuttle who stated that he bred for the smooth four beat saddle gait, the excellent disposition, and its versatility. Today the Rocky Mountain Horse® is being used as a pleasure horse, for trail, and competitive or endurance riding. As show horses, the breed is rapidly gaining in popularity because of its beauty and unique way of moving in the ring. The calm temperament of this horse makes it ideally suited for working around cattle and for 4-H projects. Rocky Mountain Horses have a lot of natural endurance, they are sure-footed on rough ground and, because of their gait, they require a minimum of effort by both horse and rider so that together they can cover a greater distance with less tiring.

In 1986 Rocky Mountain Horse Association was formed. The association has established a registry with standards be maintained and a panel of examiners has been set up by the association to provide vigorous supervisors to the growth and development of the breed. To achieve this, ALL horses must be examined for breed characteristics and approved prior to breeding. The established characteristics for the breed are:

1. The horse must be of medium height from 14-2 to 16 hands, a wide chest sloping 45 degrees on the shoulder with bold eyes and well shaped ears.

2. The horse must have a natural ambling four-beat gait (single foot or rack) with no evidence of pacing. When the horse moves you can count four distinct hoof beats which produce a cadence of equal rhythm, just like a walk: left hind, left fore, right hind, right fore. Each individual horse has its own speed and natural way of going, traveling 7-20 miles per hour. This is a naturally occurring gait present from birth that does not require any training aids or action devices (i.e. chains, soring or built up shoes.)

3. It must be of good temperament and easy to manage.

4. All Rocky Mountain Horses® have a solid body color. Facial markings are acceptable so long as they are not excessive. There may not be any white above the knee or hock. "

Oh and the boots they are Irish Setter Outrider's.

 

[abitodd]

Here are pictures from today of my KWPN's feet.
He is mainly self trimming but I do have a farrier who only does barefoot horses appaising him every 8 weeks or so. I choose to use a farrier because I am aware that any insurance claims from the knee down require an accredited professional to be regularly tending the feet.

The last appraisal was a week ago and ther was a little to remove from the heels because I had not been riding as much due to the weather. The farrier will also point out any abonomilies which is a great help with my management and training regime.

This horse has never been shod. I bought him as an unbacked 4 year old and have backed him and trained him myself.He is now 8.He has no issues with tarmac or loose rocky terrain. He was stuggling along a particular track and I got off and lead him and immediately understood that walking on fixed cobbles covered in greasy mud is uncomfortable(and I was not carrying a rider!) Working without shoes has taught me so much and I am still learning. My new youngster who is 20 month old really struggled walking up a tarmac hill. She was used to the ground yielding when she dug her toes in to climb. She had to learn to push from behind.
Her feet will be even more exciting than her Dutch uncles because she has never had molasses or cereals and lives on a variety of surfaces and she has always had the top man looking after her feet!

 

[Oberon]

[If I am allowed to comment on THIS thread]

They are very sexy hooves, abitodd

 

[abitodd]

[If I am allowed to comment on THIS thread]

They are very sexy hooves, abitodd

Thanks Oberon!

I spend many hours admiring and marvelling at them.
You should see them in the summer when I am hacking every day and they are not plastered in mud!

 

[Andalucian]

[If I am allowed to comment on THIS thread]

They are very sexy hooves, abitodd

Hell yeah, mighty fine examples.

 

[Oberon]

Thanks Oberon!

I spend many hours admiring and marvelling at them.
You should see them in the summer when I am hacking every day and they are not plastered in mud!

A livery rode past me on her youngster yesterday and I marvelled (out loud) to the owner about the horse's lovely heel first landing....

.....and everyone looked at me like I was a nut job

 

[Andalucian]

.....and everyone looked at me like I was a nut job

....and you're surprised

 

[Rosehip]

[If I am allowed to comment on THIS thread]

They are very sexy hooves, abitodd

Yaaaaayyyy! Oberon!! Always welcome here

I have to say Abitodd, they are some super feet, and I would never have said they belonged to a WB!!! Amazing!!

Saluqihounds & IrishDan - that horse is simply beautiful! Looks as though she will be a lovely ride when she is all grown up SHe has a very genuine look about her.

Cyptrayes, that is what I can see on Seri's feet now then, just a 20p size piece right on the toe of both front feet. The grass is starting to grow with us now, so I have upped her magnesium from 1/2 a 3gm measure to a full measure, and put both girls back on laminitis prone (global herbs) at 10ml/day, mels will go up to 20ml peak season and Seri about 15ml. She isnt back in foal for this year as the idea is that she will come out in the show ring in hand, and continue her education for driving. Ill hopefully be well/strong enough by next week to begin lunging her again. Thanks very much for all your advice!! xx

 

[GinaGeo]

Note to self: must get pictures of my youngster's strange looking feet. He's barefoot always has been and is four this year. He's what I think would be called a "rock cruncher". I hadn't even thought about a horse not needing shoes until we had him. He shan't be having any on in the future.

In the meantime I've pulled off my connies shoes. His feet have a long way to go. His shoes have only been off for about a month. He's sore in front on stoney ground, fine behind and fine allround in tarmac and a surface. I'm riding him in hoofboots on the front currently. And with those on he's happy as larry and skips along.


Here're his feet.

Near Fore

Off Fore

Near hind

Off hind

I'm currently doing battle with thrush allround. Although the near hind is by far the worst. The farrier took the shoes off and did little else. The balance hasn't been messed with and seems to be what he wants or at least it will be eventually I think, I can see compared to previous photos that his frogs are getting wider and the toe shorter.

Any other thoughts are very welcome!
Thanks!
G

 

[CobSunshine]

Never wore shoes, farrier says very strong and hard. Due his 8 week trim next week.

He does have some stretch marks on his front hooves from when he was 250 kilo overweight when the previous owner bought him.

Down to a svelte 430 kilo now.

 

[cptrayes]

What interesting feet!

I have never seen a tighter white line in my life, or a thicker hoof wall.

They are very unusual in the apparent height of the hoof wall above the sole. I only point it out so that people new to barefoot don't think that their horses "should" be growing a shoe like your horse does.
It isn't commonly that way. But it obviously works well for your boy and he has stonking feet, doesn't he?!?

As a point of interest, are his frogs in contact with the floor - are you able to slide a ruler underneath them when he's stood on concrete? And does your farrier scrape his soles or are they always that smooth and white?

 

[CobSunshine]

What interesting feet!

I have never seen a tighter white line in my life, or a thicker hoof wall.

They are very unusual in the apparent height of the hoof wall above the sole. I only point it out so that people new to barefoot don't think that their horses "should" be growing a shoe like your horse does.
It isn't commonly that way. But it obviously works well for your boy and he has stonking feet, doesn't he?!?

As a point of interest, are his frogs in contact with the floor - are you able to slide a ruler underneath them when he's stood on concrete? And does your farrier scrape his soles or are they always that smooth and white?

Just wiki'd white line LOL is it the bit between the hoof edge and the flat sole? is it in all pics or just one?

Farrier scrapes his frogs, and trims the edges of hoof, never touches the smooth white sole.

These pics are taken after cleaning legs and feet and staying in stable overnight. Farrier is always amazed by them, never tried the ruler thing?

 

[Rosehip]

Cobsunshine - completely agree with Cyptrayes with regards the white line/hoof wall height - its definately unusual, but obviously working for your lad!!
the amount of hoof wall & sole remind me a bit of my little ones feet (white feet on page 6 I think??) although her sole was at the same level as the hoof wall, where as your boy has lovely concavity, and the cleanest soles!!! They look so smooth!
xx

 

[Erin]

These are Reena's feet after 6 weeks of complete box rest and surgery on her right fore fetlock (13/11/11)
http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y76/erinshaw86/ReenaFeet/13 Nov 2011/

3 days after these pics where taken she had the bandage off and started her walk programme.

And these pics are from the weekend - she's now having 3hrs turnout in the morning and 40mins walking in the afternoon.
http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y76/erinshaw86/ReenaFeet/25th Feb 2012/

Far from perfect, but going in the right direction!

 

[CobSunshine]

Cobsunshine - completely agree with Cyptrayes with regards the white line/hoof wall height - its definately unusual, but obviously working for your lad!!
the amount of hoof wall & sole remind me a bit of my little ones feet (white feet on page 6 I think??) although her sole was at the same level as the hoof wall, where as your boy has lovely concavity, and the cleanest soles!!! They look so smooth!
xx

i'll take some pics this weekend after he's had his trim.

So how would a hoof traditionally grow, does the sole grow too to keep it always flat, or does the hoof wall grow outwards rather than downwards?

 

[Rosehip]

Cobsunsine - my girl had flat feet, which is something that we want to go away from and encourage concavity - which your lad has. Cyptrayes and Oberon will explain it waaaaay better than me!!xx

 

[CobSunshine]

Cobsunsine - my girl had flat feet, which is something that we want to go away from and encourage concavity - which your lad has. Cyptrayes and Oberon will explain it waaaaay better than me!!xx

I hope they come on the thread interested to learn more


Found this pic from last summer, taken right after a trim. Not sure why the hoove uppers above the farriers smooth off, are a different colour to now, unless they dry out more resulting in the change in colour

 

[cptrayes]

i'll take some pics this weekend after he's had his trim.

So how would a hoof traditionally grow, does the sole grow too to keep it always flat, or does the hoof wall grow outwards rather than downwards?

In most working barefoot horses, the height of the hoof wall is worn to a level which is either at or barely above the height of the sole. The sole can been nicely concave, and the depth at the centre curves up, through the white line and into the hoof wall in an uninterrupted line, especially at the toe. It isn't normal for a horse to grow a "horseshoe" of hoof wall, or a horseshoe of hoof wall and sole callous. In very general terms, if you can see an obvious "shoe" on the bottom of your horse's foot, it would not be a foot which would normally be considered a "good" barefoot foot. Though obviously if the horse is long term sound and happy he is entitled to disagree

This is a picture of a "normal" hardworking foot - can you see that there is no apparent height at all in the hoof wall, and the sole just runs straight into it and the outside edge of the sole meets the floor at the same time as the hoof wall? The frog is ground bearing and the heels are big and meaty and great shock absorbers with the horse putting its heel to the ground first as it walks.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/--cRmYGIxIfM/T0wQsZvNasI/AAAAAAAAA24/24hosVb6W5k/s1600/0022.JPG

 

[LucyPriory]

I like this foot (see link) for so many reasons. Very sound, quite hard working, kept at livery on the 'wrong sort of grass', and attached to one of the breeds of horse we keep being told can't go barefoot. Fortunately no one told the horse. But equally true, I don't think there would be such a good outcome if it weren't for the carer's attention to detail and diet.

http://barefoothorseblog.blogspot.com/2012/02/in-eye-of-beholder.html