Follow up of numnah slipping under saddle - saddle fit pics :(

tallyho! said:
In this picture, the saddle is a tad far forward. The panels will be right behind the whither and since there is no muscle there, it will be quite uncomfortable and you can see he curls his back away from your seat in order to relieve the pressure making him look like he has a high croup. He doesn't. He is pretty level actually. In my opinion, you need a wider saddle and you need front riser pads until he muscles up enough to fit into the space of the panels but I'm not there to see and feel so I honestly think you should look at the options.
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Thanks for all your help :) I wouldn't use this as an accurate photo - there was a mare infront of him (very stalliony) and he was totally mesmerised. He def doesn't work like this!! I agree the saddle looks too far forward but I always make sure I put it in the correct place each time - I don't think it helps his back is an inch too long though.
 
rachaelstar said:
Could I ask which pics you've seen of him hollowing? When he is doing flatwork he works lovely over his back, round and forward - sometimes a little inconsistent but no worse than anything else. Do I stop riding him then? The thing is, this bates saddle he actually goes very nicely in it for the moment but it's clear it won't be suitable for him. I was planning on going to a master saddler next Wednesday and getting a different opinion so hopefully I can put in a formal complaint and atleast get some money back!
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I didnt realise phone corected picture to pictureS! Sorry I looked at the picture above. On laptop now so easier to type.

No, don't stop riding him, you just need to find the right saddle. Think about exercises in hand too so he can work without the restrictions of this saddle for now. Good luck rachealstar, I hope you get it fixed. Nothing worse than spending a fortune on saddles and still not being able to get a right fit. I went through four before I found Lavinia.

Definitely try and get a refund and do complain! My first saddles were fitted by Master Saddlers and my opinion of them has changed A LOT!! I understand the back more now and would avoid :(.
 
tallyho! said:
I didnt realise phone corected picture to pictureS! Sorry I looked at the picture above. On laptop now so easier to type.

No, don't stop riding him, you just need to find the right saddle. Think about exercises in hand too so he can work without the restrictions of this saddle for now. Good luck rachealstar, I hope you get it fixed. Nothing worse than spending a fortune on saddles and still not being able to get a right fit. I went through four before I found Lavinia.

Definitely try and get a refund and do complain! My first saddles were fitted by Master Saddlers and my opinion of them has changed A LOT!! I understand the back more now and would avoid :(.
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Thankyou very much for all your help. I will google Lavinia now and see what I can do. So you def think that a 'master saddler' type saddle won't be suited to him till he is more built up? Is there any chance you have a pic of the saddle you use on your horse? Can pm if you want, just interested to see :)
 
rachaelstar said:
Thankyou very much for all your help. I will google Lavinia now and see what I can do. So you def think that a 'master saddler' type saddle won't be suited to him till he is more built up? Is there any chance you have a pic of the saddle you use on your horse? Can pm if you want, just interested to see :)
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Generic saddles probably need to be given a wide berth for now I reckon.
 
rachaelstar said:
How would I compete and have lessons in that?! Lol.
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Seriously?! People do - who don't have blinkers on and are able to look at alternative options to better suit the horse until he is physically capable of wearing a 'normal' saddle that you obviously need him to wear for appearances sake!

Jumping higher than these?
allieva_esercizio.jpg


campionato_ital2.jpg


Its clear you have spent time and money and aren't getting anywhere - what is so wrong with looking outside the box?
 
TigerTail said:
Seriously?! People do - who don't have blinkers on and are able to look at alternative options to better suit the horse until he is physically capable of wearing a 'normal' saddle that you obviously need him to wear for appearances sake!

Jumping higher than these?
allieva_esercizio.jpg


campionato_ital2.jpg


Its clear you have spent time and money and aren't getting anywhere - what is so wrong with looking outside the box?
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You don't need to be rude. From the pictures I looked at in your link it looks like just a half bareback pad with stirrups? That is not safe surely? Or am I looking at totally the wrong bit.
 
TigerTail said:
Why wouldnt it be safe? Its not the saddle that keeps you on board its your ability to ride and your connection with your horse to read him and react accordingly. It just sounded from your post that you were putting your wants, i.e. to have lessons and compete, above the horses physical needs and current fitness.

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?596925-Total-contact-saddle-Whos-tried-it/page5

Thread here from real life folk on H+H if that reassures you.
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No no he is 110% the priority hense spending ££££ to get everything right! Yes I agree with you on the riding but when darling dougie is having a rather exuberant day I'd rather be sat in a proper saddle lol :)
 
Looking at your pictures and what your saddle is doing, im fairly certain your saddle is doing the same as mine did. Basically what was happening was that my saddle was tipping forward, which made the back rise and the saddle slip back. This would make me tip forward slightly, causing more pressure at the front and the muscle wasting away, my saddlecloth would slide back. If you look at the front pictures of your saddle on your horse you can see the slight gap at the withers, that the saddle would tip into.

Ive got some before pictures of my pony to show you what i mean, but i think my ponies was alot worst than yours!
 
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My saddler that fitted bot a wintec and bates to two very different shaped horses, said that the half sheepskin pads shouldn't be used unless the saddle is fitted with one on initially as they can and very often do alter the correct fit of a saddle to one that consequently doesn't fit.
Maybe worth a go without the sheepskin and see if it stays put that way - I haven't read all the posts so someone may have already suggested this ......................
 
Flyermc said:
Looking at your pictures and what your saddle is doing, im fairly certain your saddle is doing the same as mine did. Basically what was happening was that my saddle was tipping forward, which made the back rise and the saddle slip back. This would make me tip forward slightly, causing more pressure at the front and the muscle wasting away, my saddlecloth would slide back. If you look at the front pictures of your saddle on your horse you can see the slight gap at the withers, that the saddle would tip into.

Ive got some before pictures of my pony to show you what i mean, but i think my ponies was alot worst than yours!
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This sounds a pretty accurate description! What have you done to solve the problem?
 
My saddle is a saddle co. The previous fitter (who caused all the issues in the first place) made my saddle to narrow, so the new fitter firstly made my saddle wider to fit his current shape and then we had a chat about leaving it there or trying to get some of the muscle back behind his withers. We opted to give this ago so she made my saddle wider and fitted prolite shim pads to it. They are just the blue insert shims that i put on top of a thin saddlecloth (i dont use a the black pad part)

This will stop my saddle from falling back into the dips behind his withers and completely stopped my saddle and saddlecloth moving, however it doesnt bring the muscle back. That is down to lots and lots of bareback riding/walking inhand up hills and lunging in a passoa. He has defiantly improved (pic's taken last year) but he's nearly 18 and is unlikely to completely fill out back to the way he was.
 
debsandpets said:
My saddler that fitted bot a wintec and bates to two very different shaped horses, said that the half sheepskin pads shouldn't be used unless the saddle is fitted with one on initially as they can and very often do alter the correct fit of a saddle to one that consequently doesn't fit.
Maybe worth a go without the sheepskin and see if it stays put that way - I haven't read all the posts so someone may have already suggested this ......................
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I just used the sheepskin gel pad for 20 min this morning to see if it stopped saddlecloths slipping...it didn't :(
 
I have had horses that are a problem to fit saddles to and thank my lucky stars to have found Gini and Dean at The Saddle Exchange, they are extremely knowledgeable and don't leave you with a saddle that doesn't fit. Their after care is second to none. Look them up on the web, you won't regret calling them.
My friend uses them too and she had bought 4 saddles, all of which slipped, one was even custom made for her horse to a template made by a Master Saddler. They came and sorted her out and she has not looked back.
 
Your saddle pad slips because the saddle is too low at the front. It doesn't look too wide (in fact it may be too narrow) but wintecs and Bates are renound for poor balance on wide and flat horses. As the tree adjusts wider, it starts to curve and drop at the front. You can make the arch too narrow so the saddle balances but that is obviously no use to the poor horse!. Whoever told you that the standard bates and wintec is ideal for a wide flat horse is an incompetent idiot!

I don't think you'll get that saddle to fit but in the meantime, see if you can get front shims to lift it a little.

You need to look for a saddle with a flat tree and a wide head (good space between the top of the front panels). Cob type saddles would've be a good place to start. A competent saddler fitter is also a good plan.
 
Thankyou everyone :) I'm going to make a list of everything written on this page as to the issues of why the saddle isn't fitting, and ring current saddle fitter. In the mean time I'm hoping the other sms fitter I already have a good relationship will look at pics I emailed her and back me up in order for when I make a complaint against her if she doesn't refund me - which I doubt she will, grrr!!

I will then spend time googling all the other people you have all recommended and hopefully have a chat with some of them.

Thanks guys!!
 
My horse who is 8 now but was 3 when i brought him was very difficult to fit .We couldn't get a saddle to sit on his back properly .He dropped away on the right side and it took a lot of physio ,schooling and ground exercises to imrove him.What used to happen was his saddle used to tip left and then you had to joggle it to re adjust whilst riding(obviously not good for his back ) We tryed loads of saddles and the only one which i still have was A kent and Masters .It has a very deep back .We had to use a riser to start and it did still move on occasion.We tryed every girth as it came onto the shelf and then i borrowed an H girth to try ,END OF ALL THE PROBLEMS . Amazing is all i can say .He has built up now so i no longer need to use it all the time ,but both the saddle which is adjustable and the girth have been amazing .
 
I was thinking about Doug this morning while riding Frank! I'd guess that Frank has been through similar changes that you will be expecting of Doug, have similar seasonal changes though he isn't bum high.

He had atrophied behind withers when we got current saddle - that was fitted with a sheepskin numnah to allow him to build up a bit (which he did). He then ended up atrophied on one side/very built on the other from a period of lameness. This was resolved by using a foam shim on one side temporarily. I actually find his saddle copes very well with seasonal changes. Slight changes in numnah thickness accounting for them although the saddle still fits plenty well enough regardless - hence having an 'adjustable' saddle hasn't really been necessary if that is why you went for the Bates.
 
Your saddle looks similar to what mine was doing, had it checked by a saddler who said it was fine, just had a bit of flocking adjusted to stop it tipping forward and she told me to use with a half pad. Because my horse is short backed and has a big-ish shoulder for his size, I still felt it was tipping slightly and becoming to tight on the shoulder so I got a shires front gel riser off ebay and it has been fab! I use a saddlecloth, then the gel riser just below withers, then half pad and then saddle, lifts it right off his shoulders and feels a hell of a lot better!

Just a thought you could try, as only cost me £20 and got it sorted :)
 
I had a similar shaped horse. Tried Native Pony Saddle company and just could not get a good fit despite many adjustments. Then had a Oakfield Santana working hunter saddle which is theory fitted him perfectly and looked great, but he decided it was not for him. We ended up with an old Falcon Hawk event saddle and it was brilliant. No movement at all and he was very happy with it, which is the main thing. We finally got to the one that worked best by buying several on Ebay, through recommendation of styles that may suit, trying them on, rejecting those that did not fit and getting the saddler out to assess the remainder. In the end I managed to sell all the unwanted ones back on Ebay for the same or more than a paid for them so it was not an expensive exercise, even if it was a little time consuming.
 
You could try to source an Arabian Saddle Company saddle, they are designed specifically for horses with big wide shoulders and flat backs. I have one for my arab, it is the most comfortable saddle I've ridden in, never moves and is beautifully made. They are made by Lovatt & Ricketts and they are expensive, but you can sometimes pick them up secondhand for a reasonable price. I paid £450 for mine in excellent condition. I have the Solstice Endurance.
 
Am I right in thinking that it's just the saddlecloth/numnah that's slipping, not the whole saddle?

If so, just get a numnah that attaches to the d-rings, that will prevent it from going too far backwards.

I'm not going to comment on fit as from what I can see it doesn't look bad, and that's about all I can tell from photos.

Almost every numnah I ever used on my old girl (long backed, average wither, no muscle wastage) slipped backwards. It was worst with her treeless saddles (Fitform, SBS, Freeform). Saddle stayed put, numnah slid backwards, in fact I tried one without straps once and it actually feel out the back whilst cantering and I had to go and retrieve it!

Fast forward to my new boy, who's flat backed with next to no wither and the same thing happens. He has no muscle wastage (nor did my mare) though isn't as wide as he's going to end up and is currently fitted with a slightly too wide saddle and pads as this is how he likes his saddle to fit him. Previously he was in a FlexEE which didn't obviously cause him problems but he was napping and bucking and rearing and I was at my wits end (he checked out fine physically) so decided to sell the FlexEE and try something else. Instantly well behaved in the new treed saddle and has been ever since!

I use Nuumed high wither numnahs that attach to the d-rings of the saddle. It still wants to walk out backwards but is prevented from going far enough to be a problem. Mine don't ruck up and crease under the saddle though, they just wander off :)

Anyway, my point is that maybe it's just one of those things and you need to just find out what sticks best and use that type of saddlecloth, rather than endlessly worry.

If the saddle is moving, then you can ignore everything previous to this sentence!
 
Both Bates and Wintecs are built around the same tree. The tree is very curved, and not at all suitable for flat-backed types (even if you have the flocking distributed, it still makes the back of the saddle bounce).

My mare is very flat backed, and I ended up getting a Prestige saddle (there is a limited choice of brands around here - and I just don't get on with Stübben saddles at all!)
 
Sorry to hear that you've had ongoing saddle problems - I have been there, done that and know all too well how disheartening it is to buy a new saddle that supposedly 'fits' but then 6 months down the line (or 6 days in your case), something isn't right.

I think that horses simply change much more than we recognise a lot of the time and particularly for horses with large, active shoulders but that are also short coupled, finding a saddle that continues to work with them dynamically is difficult.

I ended up renting, then buying, a Solution saddle for Hippcob as this accommodates all of his very many weight and shape fluctuations (even a few days off can undo a lot of weight management work) and means that if we do eventually get him fit enough and keep him fit enough, we can use it to compete in too. I've also used it on a few other horses too with good results. They are expensive, but good value at the end of the day to see your horse happy in his work, comfortable in his back and not having to keep buying saddle after saddle and then deal with the associated set backs.

I hope that the saddler you bought it off accepts that a mistake has been made and gives you a refund. I'd definitely kick up a fuss if they won't. Fingers crossed for you!
 
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