following on from 'are you tough on your horses'

Chestnuttymare

Chestnuttymare

Well-Known Member
Joined
11 February 2006
Messages
4,672
Location
scotland
www.ipcmedia.com
....Do you think that that it is the mamby pamby dealing with horses that is causing all the problems with horses these days?
What I mean is, when I was a kid and possibly into my 20's (so between 20 to 40 years ago) horses never seemed to have the issues that horses nowadays have. Look at all the posts on here needing advice with the awkward to downright dangerous horses. Look at the amount of horses on project horses etc. Horses seemed much more straight forward with less issues than they seem to have now. I seem to remember people were much more strict and some of the old school horsemen i remember were pretty tough. Now it might not be the way that most of us would choose to do it now but as i remember it they had a better life in that they didn't seem to be passed round dealers and from pillar to post like a lot these days. Or do you think that perhaps they had less qualms about shooting the awkward ones, whereas most now would recoil from that and feel the need to 'rescue' such animals and in the long run not be doing them all a favour as they end up being dangerous due to lots of people who are not up to the job trying to fix them and them being moved on eventually with even more damage being done.
 
Honestly, I reckon plenty of the quirky ones with no job were probably got rid of.

I think when my mum had horses only horsey people tended to have them too. It seems to me that where once if you didn't know what you were doing you'd keep your horse at a RS or livery with an experienced person doing most of the graft whilst you learnt the ropes (or you wouldn't have one at all) now anyone who can afford to buy a horse thinks they will be able to cope going solo because they will be able to throw money at the situation. Sometimes it doesn't work like that.
 
Horses were more work animals than play toys, they had a job to do and they did it. Most horses now do not really get much work.

Also people had more knowledge and horsemanship skills passed down through the family and so on, because every one (or thereabouts) had a horse, when they were the main source of transport. Now days people have to start from scratch learning from horses unless they are born into a horsey family.
 
Yes and I think people were much more honest about lots of situations. I think there was possibly less people overhorsing them selves in the quest for a flashy horse. Also it was more accepted to cut you losses and shoot a horse that was pure dangerous or had the wrong temperament to be useful, I know of at least one horse that needs to be shot but it never will be it is just accepted that it lashes out at people when it fancies it. I think there was also less of the waiting for horses to come sound for the same reasons, it had untill x then if it wasn't sound it was gone.
 
dafthoss said:
Yes and I think people were much more honest about lots of situations. I think there was possibly less people overhorsing them selves in the quest for a flashy horse. Also it was more accepted to cut you losses and shoot a horse that was pure dangerous or had the wrong temperament to be useful, I know of at least one horse that needs to be shot but it never will be it is just accepted that it lashes out at people when it fancies it. I think there was also less of the waiting for horses to come sound for the same reasons, it had untill x then if it wasn't sound it was gone.
Click to expand...

From what I understand it was the complete opposite. Even if a horse was quirky or dangerous,providing it could earn a living and put bread on the table ,it was kept.
 
Don't think you even need to go back as far as Jeeves has.

Therewere two great milestones in horsemanship - or horse awarenss. One was the First World War, which provided the real boundary between the horse and the motor vehicle. The second was the Second World War, which finally wrote finis in the UK to the working horse per se. When I was growing up there were still farm horses and delivery round horses, but in very few numbers.

Meanwhile, in the 1920s and 1930s, a new strata of horse owners developed, and it was at the offspring of these that the Pony Club, of which my father was a founder, was aimed. People realised that there was a new breed of horse owner multiplying, who did not have the inherited wisdom handed down by old horsemen, and that both they and their mounts were suffering.

The pleasure horse now rules supreme. I would guess that less than .01 of the horse population is a 'working horse' in the true sense.

I agree with the thoughts of this post. There was a no-nonsense element present, which while not necessarily harsh, stated that there were rules of accepted behaviour for horses. There is an interesting parallell with children. Few these days seem capable of saying "No" or "You are to do this" to a child and meaning it. Ditto horses. O am not knocking horse psychology. People like Monty Roberts have made an enormous contribution to equine understanding. But discipline also has it's place - not with whips and punishments, but by adherence to firm standards.

I've recently watched with admiration one of my liveries with a 24-year old loan horse, ex-dressage, with non manners to the point of being dangerous. His owner said "I'm afraid he's not a respecter of persons". My livery, the loanee, said "Well he's gong to learn now, odl though he is"/ And she has done it, by contstant and steady behaviour, rebuking ill manners and rewarding good one. Would that there was more of it.
 
I think it is to do with the the use of horses nowadays. I know for a fact my horse would of been of no value to anyone so would of been disposed of if it were in the earlier days when horses were used as a means of income, now she is just a pet really so of course no one would pay out money for a lame horse with an extremely difficult temperament, it would make more sense then for her to be pts.
 
Re putting horses down if dangerous, most horses are able to be trained/ educated however you want to term it. It is us humans who fall short and cause the problems. There were more knowleadgeable horseman around and therefore usually someone who could handle the horse. They may have been sold on cheap, but there would have been a buyer for them. Now days apparently they are put in the too hard basket. I would never put a horse down because I could not handle it, I would just find someone that was a better fit for it.

Of course there were people who were not horse people as well, and had them because they had to. But I imagine they sold them on (when they had a problem horse) and got somthing more suitable, few could afford too shoot a pony just because difficult.

Plenty of working horses even today in iceland, argentina, india, even usa and australia.

Just watched a brilliant dvd on the carteros in argentina, (and other working horses) the families would not survive without their horses, they pull carts to collect rubbish and the families sort and sell the rubbish.
 
I agree that there are far to many people owning horses that have had little experience of doing so.

Back in the 50's the only people who owned their own ponies were basically farmer's children and their parents hunted. Others who owned ponies kept them at riding schools where they were under tuition. Very few people had their horses at home and even if they did they were under fairly regular tuition via the Pony Club or the hunting field and back then if things were going wrong there were people who would step in and give advice which was generally taken.

I am not soft on my horses at all, I have strict boundaries that they adhere to. As they get more trustworthy so the boundaries widen but they know when I say, 'Eh' that they had better behave.
I am not afraid to hit them if it is called for but any correction/punishment is done as they transgress and it is automatic. I rule, I own the air that they breathe and they know it! They trust me implicitly, they are not machines and all have individual characters which is encouraged.

Generally this country has turned to being way to soft. You only have to look at the problems schools and the police have with quite young children knowing 'their rights' and there being little or no discipline. It is getting out of hand and this attitude has followed through to horses and dogs.

Through experience I know that horses, dogs and children are happier for rules and boundaries and consistencies. I might not have children of my own but when people are staying here their children are down at the barns with me. They love it and parents are told that when with me my rules go. The children are given jobs even the two year olds can hold a hose and fill water buckets or given a little broom to help sweep. Encouragement, belief in them and they love it all. Takes me longer but by the time they are nine or ten they are useful!
Consistency. which can be hard work at the start, is worth it because in a relatively short time can totally change a horse/dog/child from being obnoxious to being pleasant to have around.
 
I don't thinK things are that different from days gone by. Like anything, we have the Internet now so you just hear about it more often.
 
Foxhunter49 said:
I rule, I own the air that they breathe and they know it!
Click to expand...

see now i think a few people would read that and think you were a cruel, very dominant horseowner.
however, and i think i said it in my thread the OP is talking about, horses need leadership. i think they like to know for sure who is leader, where their boundaries are and what their place is. my mare does-and she respects me whilst still having the biggest personality ever and she's still a very funny mare.


OP what you've put in response is interesting, i think years ago horses had purpose and a real job. now they're bought more commonly by numpties who don't seek help until they've ruined a good horse. i wasn't happy when i discovered that my mum's old horse had been sold to nearly total novices-however the mare is kept at their instructors yard. the instructors work her every day, compete her, hack her etc etc and that mare thrives on work she loves it. her owners have lessons on her. my point is, they've the sense to keep her somewhere knowledgeable and keep the horse doing what she enjoys.
my mare is never more happy than when she working regularly at least 4 times a week. she's having to have time off at the moment and she's obviously so bored standing in the field. boredom, in most cases, equals horses trying to entertain themselves and therefore messing around.
 
Persephone said:
I think a lot of people who buy horses now do so without sufficient knowledge and experience.
Click to expand...

^^^ This.

In my opinion you should have to have a 'Proficiency Test' before you are allowed to keep a horse!

I find it deeply disturbing that there are people who have no idea of basic horse anatomy, biology or psychology.
 
Last edited:
All of the above IMO.

Also there is a lot of conflicting info/training methods easily available and combined with the need for a quick fix and gadgets there is a massive inconsistency in training for some horses - these also tend to be the ones that aren't easy to start with.

The 'H&S' brigade have taken their toll too, kids don't tend to get the experiences that make them solid sticky riders. I have to admit I'm a bit ambiguous about this, the world has changed since I was a kid, hatless and hacking bareback along the side of a main road and I would cringe with the best of them if I saw children doing what I did at their age. But I can't deny that I learnt a lot doing stupid things and only a few of the injuries were permanent!
 
Tazhazzamoose said:
see now i think a few people would read that and think you were a cruel, very dominant horseowner.
however, and i think i said it in my thread the OP is talking about, horses need leadership. i think they like to know for sure who is leader, where their boundaries are and what their place is. my mare does-and she respects me whilst still having the biggest personality ever and she's still a very funny mare
Click to expand...

I agree that it can sound tough - some might even say cruel and I admit to dominant!
However, having worked professionally with all types of horses and specialising with 'difficult' spoiled horses, I find that it works. I totally agree that a horse that has a good handler who adheres to the boundaries is a happier horse than one who is allowed to get away with ill manners.

The fact that my horses know I mean what I say and say what I mean, has stopped many incidents happening because they are obedient to my wishes.

How many can be leading five unbroken horses in from a field and a hot air balloon blasting away comes directly overhead only about 50 feet above and when the horses went to panic, the command of 'STAND' and they immediately relaxed and walked on as if nothing was there? These were all TBs ranging from yearlings to three year olds.

Last winter I was leading three yearlings out to the field when I fell flat on my face. Again the word 'Stand' was used and so they did and waited for me to get back up. Yet these were not handled a great deal but when they were it was done correctly.
How many here can take the vet around the fields for annual inoculations and not use a halter on one of them? I can.

My horses do not get treats to bribe them yet they will walk in loose from the fields and go into the correct stable. They want to please. They do it for me yet not always for others!
As the flies are bad I decided to bring them all in. I caught three because I had a road to cross. the others, including three mares with foals at foot, came in loose all going where they were meant to be. No hassle, no racing from the field or barging to get into the barns, all quietly walking to the correct places.
That has taken me time to train them to do this but in the long run, like today when I am on my own, it saves me a lot of time and trouble.
I have not done it with a big stick or getting angry, I have done it with quiet but firm correction.
 
There are so many people who own horses that haven't a clue what they are doing. Yes I think most are to soft on them and hence why so many have problems now. Iv taken many a so called " problem horse" to work with and match to a suitable home and all but 1 came right in no time. When I go to see the horses to start with I learn a lot from watching the owner with the horse and how she/he copes,handles the horse and body langage used and that in 99% off the time makes my mind up as to what's happening. One lady wouldn't even go in the field with hers, oh but I kept that one for myself best horse I have ever had but will take the piss if she can. I will be firm on them if I have to be but normally within a few weeks they are coming right.
Maybe people are taking on more than they can deal with? Or sellers not be truthing which makes them buy unsuitable horses? Or maybe they just go and buy a horse because they can than become frightened and the horse has a field day.
 
now they're bought more commonly by numpties who don't seek help until they've ruined a good horse
Click to expand...

I totally agree with this

BUT

I do not single out any particular training method to attach it to .....

there are traditional numties, NH numpties, CT numpties and no particular method numties ;)


despite this being a mostly "traditional" site there are quite a few posters on here who have "problems" depite being "tough" on thier horses.... I draw no particular conclusion from this its just an observation because there are also posters who apparently have no issues with their horses.

I use mainly CT with mine and have no issues, I have a polite, non bargy, calm mare who also knows boundaries and who, unless am training a new behaviour, is not "bribed" or lured to do anything.

She was a rescue that came to me dangerous because of previous treatment .



The problem is that it is far too easy to get a horse and people want to rin before they can walks... literally .... and dont take the time to learn the craft of horsemanship properly.

eg Some of the questions asked on here (and asked of my friend who owns a tack shop) are soooo basic and the posters should know the answers BEFORE they purchase a horse imo.
 
I think some people think that treating it like a teddy is kind but in fact they are potentially bringing on a monster with issues & no manners. Completely agree that mostly its the owners that are at fault not the horse.

Its 13 years since I bought a horse and I have never seen so many youngsters for sale and so many horses that have problems with ie no ground basic manners. I reckon the youngsters end up being ruined.

Money and being more spoilt and humanising horses(dont get me started on winter rugs.....wrap in cotton wool)! Private is it private seller really???

I think there is a difference between cruelty and being tough. Herd animal and we are the leader. I do think if you can gain a horses trust and respect thats half the battle even if it includes defining the boundary by being tough. So yes when needed for safety of all concerned and a good sound future most definitely tough.
 
Rose Folly said:
Don't think you even need to go back as far as Jeeves has.

Therewere two great milestones in horsemanship - or horse awarenss. One was the First World War, which provided the real boundary between the horse and the motor vehicle. The second was the Second World War, which finally wrote finis in the UK to the working horse per se. When I was growing up there were still farm horses and delivery round horses, but in very few numbers.

Meanwhile, in the 1920s and 1930s, a new strata of horse owners developed, and it was at the offspring of these that the Pony Club, of which my father was a founder, was aimed. People realised that there was a new breed of horse owner multiplying, who did not have the inherited wisdom handed down by old horsemen, and that both they and their mounts were suffering.

The pleasure horse now rules supreme. I would guess that less than .01 of the horse population is a 'working horse' in the true sense.

I agree with the thoughts of this post. There was a no-nonsense element present, which while not necessarily harsh, stated that there were rules of accepted behaviour for horses. There is an interesting parallell with children. Few these days seem capable of saying "No" or "You are to do this" to a child and meaning it. Ditto horses. O am not knocking horse psychology. People like Monty Roberts have made an enormous contribution to equine understanding. But discipline also has it's place - not with whips and punishments, but by adherence to firm standards.

I've recently watched with admiration one of my liveries with a 24-year old loan horse, ex-dressage, with non manners to the point of being dangerous. His owner said "I'm afraid he's not a respecter of persons". My livery, the loanee, said "Well he's gong to learn now, odl though he is"/ And she has done it, by contstant and steady behaviour, rebuking ill manners and rewarding good one. Would that there was more of it.
Click to expand...

This I find interesting and quite true to a degree. A massive amount of horsemanship was lost around the time of WWII., the working horse and working horsemen too.

Logically, no one could work with a horse day after day year after year, and put up with the nonsense that most people do from their horse. Even some top riders in competition, and their grooms, look like they have no control at all, when on the ground with some of their horses. All these horses are just doing a 'job' nothing special as far as the horse is concerned.

I feel that the Pony Club and BHS have a useful role, but the training programs from the 1940's are primarily based on militaristic views and values, and why wouldn't they considering the times, which I don't think work as well as the way horses were trained before WWI. outside the military world. This legacy probably contributes to what I feel are the failings of modern horsekeeping and training.
 
Very interesting thread. As a qualified dog trainer/behaviourist (retired) now qualified dog groomer, I have found the same is true to be said of dogs and their owners.

May sound weird but films like Lassie, and Black Beauty and Lady and the Tramp have quite a lot to answer for when it comes to bringing up children with an attitude that animals can actually understand and reason like a human being and so need to be treated as such. Please don't shoot me down but because I love all those films. But, when the horse is treated like a horse and the dog is treated like a dog they seem to be a lot happier.
 
padderpaws said:
Very interesting thread. As a qualified dog trainer/behaviourist (retired) now qualified dog groomer, I have found the same is true to be said of dogs and their owners.

May sound weird but films like Lassie, and Black Beauty and Lady and the Tramp have quite a lot to answer for when it comes to bringing up children with an attitude that animals can actually understand and reason like a human being and so need to be treated as such. Please don't shoot me down but because I love all those films. But, when the horse is treated like a horse and the dog is treated like a dog they seem to be a lot happier.
Click to expand...

Anthropomorphism in the extreme, lol.
 
Lets face it, there are just way way more horses about now, anyone can own one. Even when I bought a horse in the 80s it was difficult to find one available, there was no internet, it was a case of traipsing round the local saddlers/feed store or looking in the local paper. The only rugs you could get were a New Zealand or a jute, jodphurs were all cream!! So many horses are bred now at all levels because people think they can make money, horses are passed from pillar to post by these numpties or their kids who know nothing and ruin them.
 
I agree with people not being tough enough! I got my horse from a lady who had had him for 6 weeks and was too scared to get on him. He was bargy, ignorant and obnoxious. However, after making it clear what I expect of him, being consistent and sometimes having a nightmare of a day with him (it hasn't all been plain sailing) he is now beginning to turn into a really lovely horse that neighs and canters to the gate when I shout him. Even through the hard times I'm glad I stuck to my guns as I now feel he respects me as his leader.
 
Thinking back 25 years ago to when i rode and kept my pony at a riding school, I do remember awkward, dangerous horses, but I think back then, people just got on and dealt with it without making a big issue out of it. My pony was a nappy sod - he wouldn't hack out on his own - he would stand on his back legs at full height, pirouette round and then bolt back home. It got to the point where he wouldn't leave the yard. I wasn't as experienced then. The riding school owner got a bloody big lunge whip, told me to hold the front of the saddle and then chased me down the drive and out of the yard - every time the horse went to nap, it got a crack with the lunge whip. It NEVER napped after that day. If someone on this forum suggested doing that nowadays, they'd be accused of cruelty. But the other option was that the horse would be PTS as it would be deemed dangerous. The short sharp shock method worked in this case. The only difference is that nowadays I wouldn't be brave enough to sit on the horse while someone chased it with a lunge whip!
I think another reason that there are more problems today is that people are so frightened of turning their horses out. I remember that all our horses lived out 24/7 in summer and in winter they got daily turnout, but the other thing is that the horses were worked harder then as well. People nowadays seem to think their horses are too precious to be turned out and are neurotic about laminitis. There was no laminitis when I was younger. The horses were fitter, worked harder, and lived out. I don't remember cribbing, weaving or windsucking....
 
I agree with all that's been said. These days people seem to over-horse themselves. They must have a horse by "so & so" or one that's got dressage or BE points, just because it sounds better than their friend's horse. I was talking to my farrier about Arabs. He's a fan, but didn't used to be. When I asked why he said that often the "wrong" people buy them because they're pretty, treat them like Barbie dolls & then they end up with the atypical badly behaved horse. If you buy a pure bred anything you need to understand the characteristics of that breed, but most people don't & aren't honest with themselves about their capabilities & ambition, they just want to say their horse is a known breed. Any horse, whatever breed, needs boundaries, just like children. They need a job of work & to understand what's expected & they need time to just be a horse. It does them no favours to try & turn them into pets. Well, that's my opinion!
 
I have to agree that the 'My Little Pony' syndrome, which is prevalent in many livery yards, where owners compete to see who can put the most rugs on their horses and are bothered about the colour than the suitability, is very much to the disadvantage of the horse. There is also the tendency to overhorse teenagers "because she looked nice on it" (not sure whether that was before or after she was bucked off - I kid you not) and leave them to deal with the horse unsupervised. The prevalence of YO who actually know very little about horses makes matters worse - and I don't mean farmers, who at least have some knowledge of animal husbandry.
The other thing I blame is marketing, particularly of rugs and feed. Novice owners are led to believe that they NEED to feed a load of junk to their animals to keep them healthy, when in fact they are meant to eat grass. The feed very often has a detrimental effect on the horse, even if only giving it too much energy and sometimes feed can cause much worse problems than that.
Then as many people have said, there is often a lack of consistency in the handling. Horse, like dogs and children need to know where the boundaries are, and what happens if they are crossed. And definitely not rewarded for crossing them.
 
Foxhunter, just as a matter of interest, are you male or female?

ets not meaning to be rude, but part of me thinks that these days it seems to be women who have the biggest problem from what i have seen.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top