following on from my rescue dog lunging at someone thread

blood_magik said:
I won't be rehoming another dog.
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I've got some cracking cocker pups here, if you'd like one. They're problem free, they haven't been mucked about, they aren't being unloaded onto to the unwary, because it's the easiest and cheapest option, the are a completely blank canvas, and they love everyone. Wouldn't that sound a bit easier?

I'm sorry that you've had a rough ride, but you've made the right decision, and I admire your courage.

Alec.
 
I don't see how putting a dog in the kitchen is 'not fair' - it's like saying it's not fair to put a dog in a kennel or a horse in a stable or a rabbit in a hutch or a parrot in a cage for our own convenience, because that's why we do it, the animal doesn't know any different.
But as you say if you have tradespeople coming in and out it probably will stress him out. Sorry it didn't work out and best of luck in the future.
 
lexiedhb said:
Hope this does not put you off rescuing again...... very sad he is having to go back, especially at this time of year.
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I hope so too. Rescue dogs are and can be very rewarding and not all rescue animals come with 'baggage'. The ones that do, where and if possible should be helped.

This is because we, as humans have broken them and caused them to not trust, or not know how to behave and react.

Yes it is not your fault that he has these issues but he needs someone to show him and teach him that he shouldnt be frightened.

Not for one moment am i saying you should keep him as it does sound like you are making the right decision for you, but i also dont think that puppies are the easy option.


IMO there are far to many pups being bred and far too many adult dogs pushed aside for a cute pup.

Give me a rescue dog any day of the week :)

Bit off track but hey ho.

Good luck OP x
 
All rescues as puppies come as blank canvases they just get ****** up along the way and passed on to rescue.

Im pretty sure your home situation with workman coming and going would unsettle any dog, very surprised the Dogstrust let any dog go into that situation.
 
Really sorry to hear it's not worked out as I remember how happy you were to get him. However, going back to the Dogs Trust is not the worst thing that could happen to him. They now will be aware of this behaviour and can work with him. My sister's dog was rehomed about 3 times I think before my sister got him and, save from some separation anxiety, he's really non the worse for it. It's not good for you or him for you to be worried or getting stressed about what he may do.
 
People on this forum - not necessarily this bit - can be both very supportive and very judgemental.
A lady had a horse PTS as it blindly bolted twice, I think she did the right thing and pages of posts agree with that.
The OP here had a dog that unpredictably attacked 2 people and she has returned him to the rescue. I think she did the right thing for her, possibly some of you would be more confident at dealing with an sneaky attack type aggressive dog.
All I am saying is give her some space - she must be gutted.
 
Dobiegirl said:
All rescues as puppies come as blank canvases they just get ****** up along the way and passed on to rescue.

Im pretty sure your home situation with workman coming and going would unsettle any dog, very surprised the Dogstrust let any dog go into that situation.
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Agree with this. I think you made the right decision for you and the dog OP, hopefully he can find a different home and you can re-visit the idea when the works at your house have been done :)
 
I have just read this and feel sad for the dog .I hope he's lucky next time .
I have shut my dogs in the kitchen or sent them to sit on their beds when people are working in the house for the whole of my adult life .
I have never considered this unfair.
I have to confess I would never have a rescue I like to buy my dogs from people I know however a few years ago I found an injured lurcher it had been living rough for around three weeks it had a dislocated hip she now lives with my mum and although nervous of sudden movements at first she's been a complete star my parents love her .
However they would shut her out of where anyone was working .
 
Clodagh said:
....... possibly some of you would be more confident at dealing with an sneaky attack type aggressive dog.
........
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The truth of the matter, reading some of the responses on here, is that very few of those contributing have any experience at all in dealing with aggressive or dangerous dogs, and the OP has done exactly the right thing. I'd go further, that "the trainer" has suggested clicker training, would be laughable were it not so potentially serious.

Alec.
 
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When I was a kid, we had an aggressive dog, although with family he was fine. He was a superb guard dog though (where my parents first lived, theirs was the only house that didn't get broken in to!). However, these days he would have had to be PTS due to his behaviour. he once launched through a glass pane on a door to get to the health visitor coming to see my mum! My dad also had to rescue a bin man once who he found on the drive pinning the dog down by the head with a dustbin lid!! :)

This was a big dog, some GSD x (wolf!! lol). There was none of this clicker training back then and I think probably the only reason he didn't attack us as small children is because my dad was pretty tough on him. We were perfectly safe but anyone he felt were a threat to 'his family' was in danger (although I am not sure how far he'd have actually gone - thankfully we never had to find out!).

I do think some dogs need a bit more than this clicker training type treatment as sometimes their behaviour is so ingrained it takes a very confident person to break the behaviour and give the dog it's confidence (that the human can handle the situation) back.

OP, as said, I am very sorry this dog was not for you and I hope you do find a dog who does fit in with your life and who you can give a fab home to.
 
Clodagh said:
People on this forum - not necessarily this bit - can be both very supportive and very judgemental.
A lady had a horse PTS as it blindly bolted twice, I think she did the right thing and pages of posts agree with that.
The OP here had a dog that unpredictably attacked 2 people and she has returned him to the rescue. I think she did the right thing for her, possibly some of you would be more confident at dealing with an sneaky attack type aggressive dog.
All I am saying is give her some space - she must be gutted.
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I think the point is some folk do not think this is a "sneaky attack type dog", just one that is very unsettled, in a new environment, surrounded by strangers - the dog has not IMO "attacked" - no blood has been drawn - it was not prolonged, with repeated bites- the dog let go.

YES this is unacceptable to pretty much anybody, but I guess some folk feel it could have been worked on/ managed fairly easily/ others dont. You will always get differences of opinion on a public forum- does not make one party right and the other wrong.

Hope this chap finds a new home soon.
 
I am really sorry it has come to this OP, very sad for you and the dog.

I just wanted to add one little thought that might be relevant to your future plans: if you go for a puppy next time, researching the breed and the breeder to have the best chance of getting a well adjusted puppy there is still the possibility that things might go wrong. You can do everything right and still have a puppy with problems. Unfortunately that is part of dog ownership and a risk that has to be taken into account when deciding to get a dog.
 
Alec Swan said:
The truth of the matter, reading some of the responses on here, is that very few of those contributing have any experience at all in dealing with aggressive or dangerous dogs, and the OP has done exactly the right thing. I'd go further, that "the trainer" has suggested clicker training, would be laughable were it not so potentially serious.

Alec.
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Apologies for hijacking this thread but I find this comment fairly insensitive and ignorant. Operant conditioning and related techniques like NILIF, BAT, behaviour extinction and counter-conditioning are very successful training methods for aggressive dogs, their efficacy well documented in both scientific studies and practical cases - nothing laughable about what the trainer suggested. They do, however, take time and they are not a guarrantee of success (e.g. for animals with chemical and neurological problems medication may play a great role in helping them become more trainable and, despite all we know, there are still animals whose behaviour doesn't respond to our best efforts and we are not sure why, e.g. tumours, seizures, etc.).

I should qualify that I know very little about aggressive dogs. My training was restricted to basic obedience for family pets, but my experience has, sadly, brought be across an aggressive dog and I have had to learn about different options. I would not presume to advice anyone on their aggressive dog, much less on the internet, this would be a job for a qualified professional, but I would also not sneer at very standard advice such as teaching the dog to retreat to a safe place.
 
Booboos said:
Apologies for hijacking this thread but I find this comment fairly insensitive and ignorant. Operant conditioning and related techniques like NILIF, BAT, behaviour extinction and counter-conditioning are very successful training methods for aggressive dogs, their efficacy well documented in both scientific studies and practical cases - nothing laughable about what the trainer suggested. They do, however, take time and they are not a guarrantee of success (e.g. for animals with chemical and neurological problems medication may play a great role in helping them become more trainable and, despite all we know, there are still animals whose behaviour doesn't respond to our best efforts and we are not sure why, e.g. tumours, seizures, etc.).

I should qualify that I know very little about aggressive dogs. My training was restricted to basic obedience for family pets, but my experience has, sadly, brought be across an aggressive dog and I have had to learn about different options. I would not presume to advice anyone on their aggressive dog, much less on the internet, this would be a job for a qualified professional, but I would also not sneer at very standard advice such as teaching the dog to retreat to a safe place.
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Dont get annoyed it is a standard Alec response, if you cant beat it into submission its not worth bothering with........
 
Clicker training is like every other training method, it works for some dogs and it doesn't for others, depends on the dog.

Having been around "aggressive" dogs, I guess my interpretation of "aggressive" might not be the same as everyone else's.

Like I say OP, best of luck in the future, whatever you decide to do.
 
I'm not sure a horse blind bolting on to roads and endangering a number of people is the same as a dog having one snap at a workman's clothing (ie not a prolonged attack)
 
IMHO the right thing has been done by the owner, and hopefully the dog will find a suitable home, I do not think clicker training would have worked for this dog. In addition to the re-enforcement of good behaviour (clicker/reward) as the dog had either learned, or had the innate characteristic, of aggressive behaviour this would need punishment, for want of a better word,at the INSTANT the dog started the attack. And, IMO, not many owners are prepared to spend time doing this, even if they have the timing and knowledge. And- purely my own opinion now- I don't believe dogs EVER learn to entirely forget any behaviour once learned. Although you can make your commands more important to the dog than its own will and desire, one day- maybe you aren't there to give the 'NO' command or something,- under stress the unwanted behaviour may return, with disastrous consequences.....
 
I could be worng, and I have a terrible memory - but I'm sure at least the first time they couldn't get him to let go of the workmans jacket so he was hanging on in there. I don't know about the second time.
I just think dog ownership is meant to be fun and some of these rescue dogs need a very experienced and on the ball handler, not everyone wants to deal with what could be percieved as a 'time bomb'.
 
Clodagh said:
I just think dog ownership is meant to be fun and some of these rescue dogs need a very experienced and on the ball handler, not everyone wants to deal with what could be percieved as a 'time bomb'.
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I fully agree with this. However, the dog in the OP seemed to have a particular problem with tradesmen. I can understand that, as their body language is quite different to a 'normal' visitor and they march around the house creating noise and disruption.

I would confine my dog to one room if we had workmen in (we never do as we DIY!) or if that was not possible because the workman needed free access to the whole house, I would pop the dog in kennels for the duration. (We have a very good local boarding kennels and our dogs enjoy going there.).

The whole thing is just rather unfortunate, I'm sure that the OP will look back and wish that she had done some things differently, but it is easy to be wise after the event.
 
I spent time in a dog rescue, watching and learning how dogs were assessed upon entry. A particular dog was tested with playing with toys, having them removed, mixing with other dogs, etc, he passed with flying colours. The final test was the tester starting to run to see how the dog reacted. Unfortunately, the dog instantly jumped up and grabbed her arm. She was very upset the dog had reacted in this way so gave him another chance. He immediately jumped up and grabbed her arm again. Sadly, this meant the dog would not be able to be rehomed. No matter how much they trained him and how well he responded, they could never completely trust him again. A new owner could be walking him in a park and a little child might run by, and there is every possibility the natural instinct could kick in again and the dog would lunge...
OP, thank you for putting the dog first and returning him to the Dogs Trust, by no means an easy decision...
 
Booboos said:
Apologies for hijacking this thread but I find this comment fairly insensitive and ignorant. Operant conditioning and related techniques like NILIF, BAT, behaviour extinction and counter-conditioning are very successful training methods for aggressive dogs, their efficacy well documented in both scientific studies and practical cases - nothing laughable about what the trainer suggested.

I should qualify that I know very little about aggressive dogs. .......
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Booboos, as you seem to have the answer, whilst admitting to having no experience, perhaps you could accept that your opinion will be of greater value when you can speak from experience rather than quoting from scientific studies. I've never written a scientific paper, but I can assure you that I've dealt with and trained dogs, extensively, and many of which would have been considered dangerous, to the point that they were beyond the average pet owner. There would be little point in regaling you with tales of success, as you've obviously done a bit of reading and have a ready formed view.

Alec.

As a footnote, may I respectfully suggest that you consider the definition of the word "Ignorant"? a.
 
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lexiedhb said:
Dont get annoyed it is a standard Alec response, if you cant beat it into submission its not worth bothering with........
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Better to keep quiet and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and prove the point. Never have I advocated beating a dog in to submission. I realise that you may well be unsure of your argument, but false and patently incorrect statements do little to support your case.

Alec.
 
Alec Swan said:
Booboos, as you seem to have the answer, whilst admitting to having no experience, perhaps you could accept that your opinion will be of greater value when you can speak from experience rather than quoting from scientific studies. I've never written a scientific paper, but I can assure you that I've dealt with and trained dogs, extensively, and many of which would have been considered dangerous, to the point that they were beyond the average pet owner. There would be little point in regaling you with tales of success, as you've obviously done a bit of reading and have a ready formed view.

Alec.

As a footnote, may I respectfully suggest that you consider the definition of the word "Ignorant"? a.
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Nothing like denegrating years of scientific studies (as well as everyone in this thread) because you have trained a few dogs. After all everyone knows that the greatest minds of humanity were heroes of their own living room.

And do go on regale us with something: what are your qualifications? how many aggressive dogs have you dealt with? what is your success rate? how many clients have you had come to you with aggressive dogs? how many vet referrals have you had with aggressive dogs?
 
Alec Swan said:
Better to keep quiet and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and prove the point.
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I love the irony of this comment :D Pot, kettle, black :D

I personally am not a fan of clicker training. I have dealt with aggressive dogs. As I have said before, when things go wrong with a rescue dog I ask myself what I did wrong to allow that situation to occur - in this case the dog was known not to be safe with workmen, so I would have popped him into the kitchen/a crate/another room out of harms way rather than allowing him to repeat the behaviour he had previously exhibited.

I am inclined to go back and bounce the thread where the discussion about rescue dogs took place - they are not all bad, they do not all have baggage, but they do require some time, patience and understanding when they are uprooted to yet another totally unfamiliar environment.
 
Booboos said:
.......

And do go on regale us with something: what are your qualifications? how many aggressive dogs have you dealt with? what is your success rate? how many clients have you had come to you with aggressive dogs? how many vet referrals have you had with aggressive dogs?
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You've accepted that you've no experience of the subject, but continue to argue. I fail to see the point of trying to explain anything to those who've firstly no interest in listening, and secondly have entrenched, misinformed and preconceived ideas.

I would imagine that in your professional capacity and when you discuss with others those subjects about which you actually can speak with authority drawn from experience, then when you meet with those who expound nonsense, or the argument that they must be right, because they read a report, somewhere, then you as I, prefer to leave others in their blissful state! I'd have thought that you'd have had a degree of sympathy for my currently bemused condition! :D

Alec.
 
Alec Swan said:
You've accepted that you've no experience of the subject, but continue to argue. I fail to see the point of trying to explain anything to those who've firstly no interest in listening, and secondly have entrenched, misinformed and preconceived ideas.

I would imagine that in your professional capacity and when you discuss with others those subjects about which you actually can speak with authority drawn from experience, then when you meet with those who expound nonsense, or the argument that they must be right, because they read a report, somewhere, then you as I, prefer to leave others in their blissful state! I'd have thought that you'd have had a degree of sympathy for my currently bemused condition! :D

Alec.
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Firstly, you have not explained anything at all. Neither your qualifications, why anyone else is wrong or much else.

Secondly, while I know the limits of my experience you seem to make much of yours without any evidence whatsoever.

Thirdly, speaking with knowledge does not come solely from personal experience, indeed it rarely does so. These studies that you are so disinterested in, what do you think they are about? Do you imagine that animal behavioural studies are done in a Cartesian armchair or are they actually concerned with animals? Why is that experience with animals (which is conducted in proper research conditions, by people who are experts in their field, with results that are published and open to scrutiny and replication) to be degraded as some kind of academic irrelevancy, whereas your (as yet unknown) personal observations to be accepted as the salt of the earth truth?

Finally if you want to appeal to my professional capacity fair enough, you can rely on my professional authority to tell you that your arguments are poorly informed and unconvincing.
 
Booboos said:
Firstly, you have not explained anything at all. Neither your qualifications, why anyone else is wrong or much else.

.......

......., you can rely on my professional authority to tell you that your arguments are poorly informed and unconvincing.
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So firstly I've explained nothing at all, and then in the next breath, my argument is poorly formed and unconvincing. Would you agree that your "professional authority" was anything other than flawed?

........

I've just spent the last half hour attempting to get my thoughts and points into a semblance of order, and to better help you understand the points which I would raise with you, I then read it through and realised that you're not actually interested, are you? :) I continue to return to the fact that you have advised us that you have very little experience of aggressive dogs, but yet you continue to argue. Correcting you is becoming tedious and pointless.

As we seem unable to make any progress, beyond going around in circles, I'm going to return to what I was doing previously, and I'll bid you good night.

Alec.
 
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