Following on from the livery thread...some thoughts

[Sussexbythesea]

I certainly would never keep my horses anywhere that didn’t at least have daily all day turn out all year. I’m lucky in the area I’m in I’ve never come across a yard that doesn’t. However I mainly have horses to ride and I do want some facilities. The things I appreciate apart from grazing are decent storage, a decent outdoor school, direct access to good hacking and a proper loo. The rest is superfluous. If it’s a slog there’s no enjoyment and I don’t see the point of it.

I’ve always loved the idea of a barn system but I’m not sure how well it works where you have a mix of horses on different schedules that change regularly. On yards where there are herds of around 10 plus there’s always been a lot of injuries even in an open space. I’d worry about that unless it was a small stable herd.

 

[Illtellyoulater]

I think a farrier needs a dry horse on hardstanding. Mine certainly insists on this

 

[bouncing_ball]

I’ve been on this forum many years now and have read so many posts on liveries and DIY. I’m very lucky in the fact my horses are on my family farm and I have someone who rents a field for their horse and have had others too. Often people want top facilities and recently a farrier turned someone I know down as she didn’t have a dry stable and yard! That’s not putting the horse first. Most horses would rather be out. I get people say ‘oh I don’t understand why you leave yours out as they’d much pref to be in a warm cosy stable’. No they wouldn’t. They are natives and one in particular would destroy and eat my stables until he was back out. Yes facilities do make it easier for people but sometimes at the detrimental effect to our horses. A neighbour was offering a 5ac paddock with great drainage, fences etc for £10 p w per horse same as I charge for basic grazing. Took a long time to get someone as there was no facilities, no yard only running water and a troff. The woman who is renting now is delighted as her horses have never been so happy and the riding is great here. You can always erect a shed, pop some slabs down or do things to make your life a little easier. But I wish people would put the horse first. I know some have no choice and feel for them people and the horses. A lot of livery now is all about max income pack the place out. This is exactly why I’ve been debating on setting up part livery or DIY here. Not for max profit but because working with rehabilitating and rescuing horses for several years for a welfare charity it taught me that too many people put themselves first not the horses and too many horses suffer in silence or end up with ulcers as they are shut away most of the time as the yard has a bloody solarium!!! I think a horse would choose to stand in the sun. A school is great yes but you can school out and about hacking to a extent, hire one or set one up in a field with electric fence tape and markers as I have. Can be moved if it starts getting too wet. There’s a lot you can do to make your basic places easier but the horse always comes first of you have a choice. Horses only get stable vices because we keep them un naturally.

 

[bouncing_ball]

I agree with principle of what you write, not all horses do.

I kept a pair of Warmbloods out in big sandy fields 24-7, fed on hard standing with adlib hay in hay hutches. Fully clipped and good rugs. Loved it and at the time my family older horse wasn’t happy stabling for more than a few hours. Neither horse ever wanted in out of weather. Had food, tree / hedge shelter etc.

Fast forward a few years and my older horse did want more stable time in winter. And was quite vocal about it. I moved yards to suit him. (My younger horse was less impressed).

I think good horse people try and keep things as natural as possible but ALSO listen to what their horse wants and accommodate their wishes too.

 

[sportsmansB]

I recently moved yards as the one I was at before had no option for my horse to get out during the day.

He is a bit of a prince and has long been conditioned to livery yard rules, he would have been turned out for 3-4 hours per day in the home he was in before me, and kept in a huge yard in internal stables housing easily 30 horses. He's a door kicker.
I was at a yard with super facilities (pool, indoor, gallops etc) but the turnout was sporadic and I work full time and sometimes travel so I couldn't rely on him getting out of his stable when I was not able to be there every day. He doesn't love turnout, he genuinely likes his home comforts and will try and come back in after about 3 hours hoping for a meal, and the yard used this as a reason why he didn't 'need' it. I can't bear the thought of any horse standing in a stable for a full day with nothing happening, and even though he is a pretty lazy guy overall he got sharp and not that much fun to ride when there.
I moved him to a small family yard owned by an elderly man who runs it for his grandaughter really. I got a stable with a chain (no door, no kicking ). There is a small arena with poor lights which is a struggle at this time of year, but good hacking. They don't have winter grass turnout, but he gets a little adventure each day where is goes into a barn with a horse next door and eats more hay, then a couple of hours in the arena picking at the grass around the edge, then a wee dander down a lane munching at the hedge, and he's back in the barn after lunch and his stable at 5 ish.
He puts a paw out under the chain every now and again to beg for additional haylage (and gets it!) and he just looks so happy

He is so much more settled in his riding (even though hes getting less 'exercise')- and I think he much prefers this daily routine to being chucked in a paddock of mud to his knees and left for 8 or 9 hours in the rain. He is 14 now, and maybe I could try and change his ingrained behaviour re limited turnout, but I'm not sure that would be to his benefit at this stage in life. He will happily go out in the summer for longer periods when the grass and the weather are good.
I have been spoiled by facilities on professional yards and wouldn't have looked at this place before, but it suits us both and I'm so glad we moved. I was desperately looking for somewhere with winter turnout, and if my friend hadn't already been at this yard I would have overlooked it, but the routine suits him perfectly and he is treated like the prince he believes himself to be. I can suck up a small arena for now, and once the evenings get brighter we can ride and jump in the field, which is where event horses should be schooling anyway really.

Every horse is different, its about finding the yard which can do enough to suit your individual. I do feel sorry for people with more than one with differing needs as that compromise would be a struggle.

 

[doodle]

I have no doubt Robin would like to be out more if the situation was different. Where he is they go out in pairs. They can be out all day in winter and 24/7 in summer. Yo doesn’t dictate when summer and winter are tho. However she has asked that Robin and his pair come in at 3 as they were winding the other horses up that were coming in. This suits me tho as I bring in them To ride.
We are not allowed hay in the field and there is no shelter. So although they like going out in the morning they are keen to get in at night. I’m sure if in a “better” field he would be happier to stay out. But that is what I have to work with and I actually like him being in at night in the winter.
Our yard is actually better in that the fields are marginally drier than many others around.
The stables are barn type with bars between stables. He does interact with the horses either side and there is only one horse who doesn’t like this and has her bars blocked out. I like the stables because they have the door into stables then a large window out the back. These can be closed, which I do on occasion as the prevailing weather comes in that way.
Generally they go out every day regardless. There has been 2 days so far this winter where weather been horrendous and the whole yard stay in.

 

[hellfire]

I agree with principle of what you write, not all horses do.

I kept a pair of Warmbloods out in big sandy fields 24-7, fed on hard standing with adlib hay in hay hutches. Fully clipped and good rugs. Loved it and at the time my family older horse wasn’t happy stabling for more than a few hours. Neither horse ever wanted in out of weather. Had food, tree / hedge shelter etc.

Fast forward a few years and my older horse did want more stable time in winter. And was quite vocal about it. I moved yards to suit him. (My younger horse was less impressed).

I think good horse people try and keep things as natural as possible but ALSO listen to what their horse wants and accommodate their wishes too.

Yes I totally agree and I should of been clearer in how I was trying to say about putting the horse first. Iris totally down to the horse and whatever they are happier with 100%. If you have a horse who likes being tucked up in a nice warm stable and shivers at the sight of rain then yes you are putting your horse first. Not all horses can manage 24/7 turnout. My friends Arab x TB was one who had to be rugged up and liked to be in. She had a choice and she liked to be cosy and warm inside. She also had a Shetland for a while who used to gallop down into the shelter if any rain started ?. Most Shetland’s won’t care but yes defiantly all different.

 

[hellfire]

I think a farrier needs a dry horse on hardstanding. Mine certainly insists on this

The horse doesn’t have to be dry and totally clean. My friends horse had its feet washed and was taken out onto drier not muddy ground outside the gate. The farrier didn’t want to work in the wet or have a wet horses foot! Also I know my own farrier will do a horses feet even if they are in the field with no where to stay clean and dry and feet just picked out. Depends on your farrier I think.

 

[meleeka]

The horse doesn’t have to be dry and totally clean. My friends horse had its feet washed and was taken out onto drier not muddy ground outside the gate. The farrier didn’t want to work in the wet or have a wet horses foot! Also I know my own farrier will do a horses feet even if they are in the field with no where to stay clean and dry and feet just picked out. Depends on your farrier I think.

Mine asks that don’t wash them beforehand as wet legs are worse. My friend has nothing and all farrier asks is that feathers are out of the way with tubigrip. He just wears gloves for these horses.

 

[dorsetladette]

My current farrier is so easy going. I always make sure legs are OK and feet are clean before he gets there. I have a spare towel out for him if he needs to wipe his hands or horses feet again. But honestly he thinks I worry to much. I have no hard standing and the shelter would probably be to dark for him to work in but the ground is firm and there is always a dry place to stand them.

 

[hellfire]

Depends if the farrier really knows his stuff or if they are a pansy. I had a bare foot specialist visit me a while ago and he was furious and refused to even look at my horse as he had nowhere clean and dry to park!!! I’m on a working farm and the farm yard and track has a thin coating of mud and he was angry at that!!! He got out his car looking like he’s just stepped out of shooting times magazine and said to me ‘look at me! I’ve got to do a full days work yet and you expect me to work in these conditions!!! You should of told me there was mud!!” It’s f@“?ing winter mate I replied! I’m on a working farm with my tractor coming and going. You can walk around in trainers on the yard and yes the bottoms get mucky but that’s it. I’ll include a picture of the yard surface. He didn’t even look at the horses who actually were inside and clean and dry for him. Just wheel spun off! I won’t go into the rest of the conversation I had with him as my language was blue at how rude and arrogant he was!

 

[Annagain]

My farrier was there this morning. I thank several different gods for how excellent he is. As A is getting on a bit now he's a bit stiff in the mornings so it's easier for both farrier and him if he gets a couple of hours turnout before being shod. M's owner turns them out at 6 every morning so we carry on with that even on farrier days and then I get him in at 7.50 in time for the farrier at 8. All farrier asks is for an old towel to wipe the mud off his hooves - this is better apparently than washing them and having wet legs. We're very lucky at the lack of mud in our field so it only really goes onto his hooves as he comes through the gate - which has hardstanding so not too deep - it doesn't get as far as his feathers (which are trimmed but growing out a bit) but even then, farrier just prefers to wipe the mud off rather than washed and wet legs. Many would insist on clean dry legs which would mean a very stiff horse being asked to stand awkwardly. I'm very grateful he puts the horse's welfare above his convenience.

 

[Nasicus]

Depends if the farrier really knows his stuff or if they are a pansy. I had a bare foot specialist visit me a while ago and he was furious and refused to even look at my horse as he had nowhere clean and dry to park!!! I’m on a working farm and the farm yard and track has a thin coating of mud and he was angry at that!!! He got out his car looking like he’s just stepped out of shooting times magazine and said to me ‘look at me! I’ve got to do a full days work yet and you expect me to work in these conditions!!! You should of told me there was mud!!” It’s f@“?ing winter mate I replied! I’m on a working farm with my tractor coming and going. You can walk around in trainers on the yard and yes the bottoms get mucky but that’s it. I’ll include a picture of the yard surface. He didn’t even look at the horses who actually were inside and clean and dry for him. Just wheel spun off! I won’t go into the rest of the conversation I had with him as my language was blue at how rude and arrogant he was!

Oooh you're in Devon too... I wonder who it was, enquiring minds just got to know!

 

[dorsetladette]

Depends if the farrier really knows his stuff or if they are a pansy. I had a bare foot specialist visit me a while ago and he was furious and refused to even look at my horse as he had nowhere clean and dry to park!!! I’m on a working farm and the farm yard and track has a thin coating of mud and he was angry at that!!! He got out his car looking like he’s just stepped out of shooting times magazine and said to me ‘look at me! I’ve got to do a full days work yet and you expect me to work in these conditions!!! You should of told me there was mud!!” It’s f@“?ing winter mate I replied! I’m on a working farm with my tractor coming and going. You can walk around in trainers on the yard and yes the bottoms get mucky but that’s it. I’ll include a picture of the yard surface. He didn’t even look at the horses who actually were inside and clean and dry for him. Just wheel spun off! I won’t go into the rest of the conversation I had with him as my language was blue at how rude and arrogant he was!

Yep had some pretty 'precious' professionals out in the past. I've had some pretty choice words for some, especially when they turn up late with no explanation/apology and then moan that the field is to wet to walk across or its raining etc. Grinds my gears!

 

[Illtellyoulater]

The horse doesn’t have to be dry and totally clean. My friends horse had its feet washed and was taken out onto drier not muddy ground outside the gate. The farrier didn’t want to work in the wet or have a wet horses foot! Also I know my own farrier will do a horses feet even if they are in the field with no where to stay clean and dry and feet just picked out. Depends on your farrier I think.

Actually my farrier will only shoe on concrete, won’t even entertain hardstanding....

 

[Leo Walker]

Actually my farrier will only shoe on concrete, won’t even entertain hardstanding....

He sounds like a total prick!

 

[Illtellyoulater]

I am interested to hear others don’t insist on this as I have to box up to find some concrete at the moment for shoeing if my narrow strip of concrete is wet, even though I spent £1000s on hardstanding at my place so he could shoe there (and we can park)

 

[meleeka]

Depends if the farrier really knows his stuff or if they are a pansy. I had a bare foot specialist visit me a while ago and he was furious and refused to even look at my horse as he had nowhere clean and dry to park!!! I’m on a working farm and the farm yard and track has a thin coating of mud and he was angry at that!!! He got out his car looking like he’s just stepped out of shooting times magazine and said to me ‘look at me! I’ve got to do a full days work yet and you expect me to work in these conditions!!! You should of told me there was mud!!” It’s f@“?ing winter mate I replied! I’m on a working farm with my tractor coming and going. You can walk around in trainers on the yard and yes the bottoms get mucky but that’s it. I’ll include a picture of the yard surface. He didn’t even look at the horses who actually were inside and clean and dry for him. Just wheel spun off! I won’t go into the rest of the conversation I had with him as my language was blue at how rude and arrogant he was!

That’s hilarious ?

My farm vet is the opposite. He can visit my pet pigs in the middle of summer just for vaccinations and he still dons his wellies and waterproofs. I’m sure he’s used to dealing with cows. ?

 

[dorsetladette]

I am interested to hear others don’t insist on this as I have to box up to find some concrete at the moment for shoeing if my narrow strip of concrete is wet, even though I spent £1000s on hardstanding at my place so he could shoe there (and we can park)

Think you need to find a different farrier.

 

[milliepops]

spare a thought, those who are saying it's precious... if you are trying to prepare a foot and every time you put it down it gets wet and muddy again, it's really challenging. Not to mention physically harder to shoe a horse on uneven or soft ground. if you drop a nail you may never find it again, yet you'll be blamed if a horse stands on it. and so on.
If you think your farrier is being an arse because he wants somewhere cleanish, dryish and hard to work then fine, try and find someone else, but perhaps he's saying that because it means he can do a better job for you with those minimal facilities

My OH shoes a few standing on the road, where clients have no hardstanding but fields are on quiet lanes - that's not ideal but it's better than nothing.

 

[Illtellyoulater]

spare a thought, those who are saying it's precious... if you are trying to prepare a foot and every time you put it down it gets wet and muddy again, it's really challenging. Not to mention physically harder to shoe a horse on uneven or soft ground. if you drop a nail you may never find it again, yet you'll be blamed if a horse stands on it. and so on.
If you think your farrier is being an arse because he wants somewhere cleanish, dryish and hard to work then fine, try and find someone else, but perhaps he's saying that because it means he can do a better job for you with those minimal facilities

My OH shoes a few standing on the road, where clients have no hardstanding but fields are on quiet lanes - that's not ideal but it's better than nothing.

It is hardstanding, not a field, not muddy nor uneven. Clean, dryish and hard

 

[Gloi]

My OH shoes a few standing on the road, where clients have no hardstanding but fields are on quiet lanes - that's not ideal but it's better than nothing.

That's what I used to have to do.

 

[Five&Two]

I am sick to death of people slagging off yards with no winter turnout!!! My gelding nearly killed himself trying to come in when some idiot with the same opinion as many, forced him to go out. Another on my yard will not go out when it's wet, they have a turnout stable, or, the stable has a back door that opens put into the field, put either mine or the other mare in the stable with the door to the field open and neither go out. We also have another big young horse that jumps out and wanders in. So NOT all horses want to go out IN rubbish weather or Boggy fields.

 

[hellfire]

I am sick to death of people slagging off yards with no winter turnout!!! My gelding nearly killed himself trying to come in when some idiot with the same opinion as many, forced him to go out. Another on my yard will not go out when it's wet, they have a turnout stable, or, the stable has a back door that opens put into the field, put either mine or the other mare in the stable with the door to the field open and neither go out. We also have another big young horse that jumps out and wanders in. So NOT all horses want to go out IN rubbish weather or Boggy fields.

That’s what we were just saying. All horses are different and you have to do what’s right for your horse as they are not all the same. Most like to be out but a percentage do want to be in and then yes your putting your horse first in keeping them in.

 

[Leo Walker]

I am sick to death of people slagging off yards with no winter turnout!!! My gelding nearly killed himself trying to come in when some idiot with the same opinion as many, forced him to go out. Another on my yard will not go out when it's wet, they have a turnout stable, or, the stable has a back door that opens put into the field, put either mine or the other mare in the stable with the door to the field open and neither go out. We also have another big young horse that jumps out and wanders in. So NOT all horses want to go out IN rubbish weather or Boggy fields.

You can be as sick as you like. Its not acceptable. If your horse wont go out then you need to work out why and sort it. If yours is one of the incredibly rare ones that is so damaged that he wont go out then you need to be there 3 times a day exercising him. My coming 2 year old is on small pen turnout, so I'm paying someone to hand walk him twice a day as well as turning him out in the school, and what I'm doing with him. Its costing me so much money i darent add it up, but its tough. The only reason its acceptable to me is because its only for a month and its on vet advice. If it was just that he didnt like being out, I'd be moving to a yard where he did like being out in whatever form that takes.

 

[bouncing_ball]

You can be as sick as you like. Its not acceptable. If your horse wont go out then you need to work out why and sort it. If yours is one of the incredibly rare ones that is so damaged that he wont go out then you need to be there 3 times a day exercising him. My coming 2 year old is on small pen turnout, so I'm paying someone to hand walk him twice a day as well as turning him out in the school, and what I'm doing with him. Its costing me so much money i darent add it up, but its tough. The only reason its acceptable to me is because its only for a month and its on vet advice. If it was just that he didnt like being out, I'd be moving to a yard where he did like being out in whatever form that takes.

I kind of agree with you. I hate stabled 24-7 horses. And try and get mine out as much as possible. He gets in winter, typically 4 hours, six days a week. (In a big field with 5 friends, and fair ground and grass, and trees / bushes / features in field.



I mix with hand walking / walker / hand grazing / lots of varied work. Trying to get out of stable three times a day on non turn out days (yard will handwalk / walker on those days in middle of the day). And twice a day most four hour turnout days. I’m lucky to work ten minutes from yard, and have horse on part livery, and have indoor school.



I do think though some horses have strong opinions that cannot be changed, and you do sometimes have to respect that.



I have had have owned / loaned 6 horses in last 22 years. And all of mine so far, view daily turnout as important for their happiness, and expressed a clear preference, providing there is grass / hay, good space, friends and not horridly muddy.

 

[JFTDWS]

I'm not sure why having a horse that won't stay out means that yards which only offer 24/7 stabling are a great thing we should all be thankful for, rather than annoyed by... I don't think I've ever encountered a yard which only offered 24/7 turnout and no option to stable in winter that wasn't openly described a such. It is, however, all too often the case that yards offer all year turnout and then retract that when winter is, predictably, wintry.

Obviously horses need to have options - if you have a horse requiring box rest over winter, you need somewhere that is suitable for that. If your horse requires limited turnout (probably because of human intervention in the past), you require a suitable yard, which can provide, or allow you to provide, sufficient exercise and stimulation for the horse. But actually, there are lots more yard options for people who want limited or no turnout that there are for those who want a lot of winter turnout, so I really can't think what the former group have to complain about at all.

 

[Tarragon]

Regarding turn out - I also include all weather turn out. A large area in which horses can be turned out together, with enough space to loaf around, play and roll, and with forage available, is a good option in places where grass fields are limited.

 

[AandK]

Over the years (owned horses for 24yrs now), my mindset on how I keep my horses has changed. In the early years I was on yards with horses stabled at night in winter and during the day, or out 24/7 in summer. Didn't know any better to question leaving a horse in 24/7 over winter, in fact I did this myself one winter many years ago (about 15 ish) with my now 22yo as I was fed up with the field injuries and lost shoes from group turnout - god knows how we both managed - I do recall our outings being rather interesting toward the end of winter! My late mare lived out 24/7 from when she was retired at 12 until she was PTS at 29, but in the early days 24/7 was something for non ridden horses. I also preferred to school rather than hack, but all that changed when 22yo got a suspensory branch injury in 2008, it was described as chronic more than acute and looking back, I believe too much work on a surface and foot balance (he was wearing hind wedges at the time) were a major contributory factor to this. Once he completed his 5 months box rest in the Dec of that year, I moved him to a yard he could be out 24/7/365 and he has been ever since. I realised how much constant movement was important and also decided to hack more and school less. I was fortunate that he came back from that injury and returned to full work.
The more I think about it, the more I think stabling (and this relates to my horses, as they like to be out 24/7) is for my convenience, unless required due to injury/illness. Recently my 6yo had some time in the stable due to an injury and operation. It is lovely seeing them warm and dry, munching on hay etc, all lovely and clean, but when I see how much happier he is out 24/7 now, I know keeping him stabled when he doesn't need to be would not be in his best interests. He is still warm and dry under his rug, but can mooch about, or have a jolly when he wants, rather than standing still with limited movement opportunity.
In terms of where I choose to keep my horses, I am again fortunate to have found a yard that allows me to keep them as I want. I have sole use of a lovely big field (fine for me as both horses are not fatties, but I can section off if needed) with plenty of natural shelter and can have mine out 24/7/365 if I wish. I have a stable if I need it, and plenty of storage. There is a usable arena and the hacking is amazing, as we're at the foot of the South Downs and there are lots of great venues within easy reach for training and comps. The yard is not immaculate, it is a bit run down, but it really works for me and my horses, which is why I have been there for 7.5yrs. There is no way I would be on a yard with no turnout in the winter. I'd love to be at a beautiful, smart yard with top facilities (not that you tend to get them for DIY!) but in my experience these types of yards that would not suit how I keep my horses these days, i.e. out 24/7/365.

That was a bit of a rambling essay, oops! At the end of the day, horses are all individuals and we have to treat them as such. When I got the 6yo in March last year, I didn't know if he would take to being out 24/7 and if he didn't like it then I would have managed him in a way he was happy with. As it was he loves it, so I was lucky there!

 

[chaps89]

The more I think about it, the more I think stabling (and this relates to my horses, as they like to be out 24/7) is for my convenience, unless required due to injury/illness.

I agree in general, however I did chuckle a bit at this, as I'm the opposite, I like mine to live out for my convenience.
I can get up twice a day but morning might be any time between 6am and 9.30am and evening might be any time from 4.30pm to 8pm.
That works great when they're out, but when part stabled it doesn't work at all! So my life is a lot more complicated when I have her stabled and it's alot more convenient to have her out.
(Unfortunately for me I also have a metabolic horse so not one that can live out. D'oh!)