Foolish Question for Studs and Breeders

I am with you and PinkWeasel - I wanted to breed something that was for me, laid back enough to do the local stuff and talented/saleable enough should the need arise to sell in the future. I don't want a world beater by any stretch of the imagination.
I ended up using Welton Adonis, and Sam and Linda Barr were lovely. They took a genuine interest in my mare and are keen to follow the progress of the little one. They aren't so interested in breeding high profile horses anymore, they feel they've done enough to prove themselves, and I can't say I blame them! When I rang to ask about their stallions I said that I was looking for something that wasn't going to be an olympic hopeful, and just something to have fun with, and they said it was refreshing to hear that as so many people have such huge expectations, especially when breeding from sub-standard mares.
I think you will also find the HenryHorn is doing her bit in breeding quality horses for the RC type owner!
 
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I am with you and PinkWeasel - I wanted to breed something that was for me, laid back enough to do the local stuff and talented/saleable enough should the need arise to sell in the future. I don't want a world beater by any stretch of the imagination.
I ended up using Welton Adonis, and Sam and Linda Barr were lovely. They took a genuine interest in my mare and are keen to follow the progress of the little one. They aren't so interested in breeding high profile horses anymore, they feel they've done enough to prove themselves, and I can't say I blame them! When I rang to ask about their stallions I said that I was looking for something that wasn't going to be an olympic hopeful, and just something to have fun with, and they said it was refreshing to hear that as so many people have such huge expectations, especially when breeding from sub-standard mares.
I think you will also find the HenryHorn is doing her bit in breeding quality horses for the RC type owner!

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What can I say about Welton horses? Nothing without being sued, probably.
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I like to think we breed athletes with great trainability. So if they end up in a non-competitive home they should still prove to be a pleasure to own.
Yes I am trying to breed horses with the capabilities to really do a job but we have sold to serious compeition homes and to people who only want to do RC stuff but still wanted a quality, well bred horse.

I have turned away potential buyers before, not due to their aspirations but because I didnt feel they were ready to take on a foal and didnt feel responsible selling to them

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So you do believe that the same horse would suit a RC rider, as would go on to 3DE etc?

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I can honestly say, hand on heart that I am realistically never going to compete at the highest level. I bought one of Volatis' first crop of foals based on his temperament and if I'm honest, his breeding (and his colour
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). He's by Ringo and out of a TB mare and he was bought with the intention of hopefully eventually going eventing. Now I may not have the balls (or the experience) to compete him at 3DE level but that's not to say he won't have the ability to be there. Until we start him and have got a year or two down the line, we won't know for sure. However, his temperament, as Volatis says, is such that he would be happy doing any job.

Surely there are examples of horses that started out as RC horses but were "discovered" and ended up 3DE or similar...? (I just can't think of any off the top of my head)
 
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ISurely there are examples of horses that started out as RC horses but were "discovered" and ended up 3DE or similar...? (I just can't think of any off the top of my head)

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I can think of a few...but usually they were 'discovered' by professionals etc when they were sent away for schooling having proven too much for their owners...well, that's been my experience anyway.
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hmmm i have a mare which i breed from to produce nice horses for myself but that are saleable and should be able to compete to a decent level of affiliated competition, my other mares i try and produce youngstock that are good types n move well, with good minds so far i think iv done ok, i hope lol but breeding does go wrong n sometimes even the best breeders in the world can create a monster!!! lol
 
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The PROBLEM with breeding 'ordinary' youngsters is that the people for whom - eventually - they'll be the perfect horse may not be experienced enough to bring them on. They want something that's 5 or 6 years old and already backed, schooled and riding quietly. But they DON'T want to pay £8-10,000 for them - which is what they would cost to keep and produce to that stage.



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Totally agree and that is the problem with producing ordinary horses. Have to say though Charlie looks nothing like ordinary to me, going to be a smashing type and I'd buy him off you. To me once the've been gelded and shown themslevs to be good useful sorts the breeding is almost irrelevant
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I think HenryHorn aims at very much the market you are talking about and does a very good job of it producing sane sensible horses that will happily turn a hoof to anything.
 
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Have to say though Charlie looks nothing like ordinary to me, going to be a smashing type and I'd buy him off you. To me once the've been gelded and shown themslevs to be good useful sorts the breeding is almost irrelevant
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Thank you - I think he's rather smashing too!
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And knowing both his parents as well as I do, I know he'll be honest and bold without being stupid. And if you'd LIKE to buy him ....
 
I found studs have a really bad attitude to the clients...(with the odd exception) and can't escape the notion that they breed for their own edification...not to meet a market need.

Never come across that problem. As for prices, it may appear cheaper to breed, but reality is far from true. If you dont have your own land then you are paying livery for the mare to be at stud (unless doing AI, but the mare will still be away). You have the cost of vets, stud fees etc, when the foal hits the ground (hopefully with no problems), you the have further vets fees, even if this is just the vaccinations. You will then have livery costs, farrier, vets, feed etc until it is 3/4 yo before you can do much with it. Add that up & it is cheaper to buy a nice 2/3yo. Breeding sound horses that can have a useful life is more important then trying to breed a horse for the international market. It is such a small percentage, when compared to how many horses are being bred ea yr. If the 2 youngsters bred this yr & last dont have enough talent for what we want to do then they will be sold as riding horses, there is no chance of ever recovering the costs of keeping them that lenght of time. There is buzz from watching something you have bred go on & become a sane riding horse that takes everything in its stride. On the otherhand it is just as easy to go the other way. In the future instead of buying my horse in installments, I shall put the money away & get 2yo that way I stand more chance of getting what I want. There are enough good studs breeding some very nice foals who are more then happy to sell their horses to good homes, even if that means it may not reach the dizzy heights of the Olympics!
 
well I guess we could breed a shire x Tb and end up with a horse that has the mind of an off the track TB and the body mass of a shire that tanks off at every opportunity
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No breeder regardless of what market they are aiming for can be 100% certain that every foal will be what they expected but at least its rewarding when they turn out to be what buyers were looking for.
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no! would I want to ???
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Well I have been told she's the 'right' cross; that is, Shire dam, and TB sire.....as apparently TB dam and Shire sire crosses are mental cases....but I don't know.
She had colic surgery this spring...and went from out 24/7 to in 24/7 and yet I could walk her in hand with a headcollar...so she can't be all that mad. She's very large and very powerful though...and I think would be naturally dominant if I wasn't such a strict and mean owner.
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PS I didn't breed her...I acquired her sort of by accident as a companion, but like her so still have her...
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Thats great news to hear that she survived the colic surgery, your very lucky!
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So many don't, its the horse owners nightmare.
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I find it interesting that you think failed high level competition horses are exactly the type happy hackers like me would want. By the same token, you could argue that a failed NH racehorse would be suitable for a novice...



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But when does a NH breeder take ridability and trainability into account in making their breeding decisions?
What I said was, if you aim to breed the best foal you can and it doesn't have the scope or ability to make it a really serious competition mount, therefore it is one of your 'poorer' foals, it will hopefully still be structurally correct and with a good mind and therefore why couldn't it make a nice RC or hacking horse?
I dont breed for novice riders in the sense that I wouldn't sell a foal to a begineer but once backed correctly and working I would be pretty annoyed with myself if my homebred was too sharp/quirky to be a nice honest RC horse for the average amateur owner. It would mean I had done something wrong in the breeding process of the backing process.

I know some of my stock are going to be a little more spirited than others but I would never breed to a nasty, malicious, difficult stallion and would absolutely never have such a mare in my breeding herd.
 
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Actually JanetGeorge, I like the look of your Percheron cross! PS My mare is an RID in foal to Barracaberry Orbit.

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He's turned out rather well. The mare's first foal was by Bazaar's Texas and he's the UGLIEST thing I've ever bred! But the RID stallion worked well on her. Sadly they hated each other - and we only got that one by AI. The mare kicked like hell and Raj said: No thanks!

I like Barracaberry Orbit - I'm seriously thinking of him for one or more of my 3 Raj daughters - the two 3 year olds are now in foal to Kensons Aragorn, but I've sent HIM home. What is your mare's name? (proper name)
 
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I find it interesting that you think failed high level competition horses are exactly the type happy hackers like me would want. By the same token, you could argue that a failed NH racehorse would be suitable for a novice...



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But when does a NH breeder take ridability and trainability into account in making their breeding decisions?
What I said was, if you aim to breed the best foal you can and it doesn't have the scope or ability to make it a really serious competition mount, therefore it is one of your 'poorer' foals, it will hopefully still be structurally correct and with a good mind and therefore why couldn't it make a nice RC or hacking horse?
I dont breed for novice riders in the sense that I wouldn't sell a foal to a begineer but once backed correctly and working I would be pretty annoyed with myself if my homebred was too sharp/quirky to be a nice honest RC horse for the average amateur owner. It would mean I had done something wrong in the breeding process of the backing process.

I know some of my stock are going to be a little more spirited than others but I would never breed to a nasty, malicious, difficult stallion and would absolutely never have such a mare in my breeding herd.

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Oh, none of this is meant personally as a comment against any specific individual...
I would have thought that to excel at National Hunt, as well as in eventing etc...a horse would have to have physical talent, but also rideability and trainability too.
And a failed racehorse is as likely to be 'structurally correct and with a good mind' as a failed eventer...
Why is everyone so disparaging regarding 'novice' riders and non-competition homes? I agree regarding foals and youngstock with inexperienced owners, but why must they be viewed as second best...just because their aims and objectives differ from a professional competitor?
As a final point, I know you value temperament...but in my time as an 'observer' in the equine industry I've seen some real gits used as they had jumping or dressage talent, in fact viewed some prior to choosing a stallion...
Thanks for your responses though - fascinating. And again, I'm not meaning anything personal.
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I dont think any of the breeders who replied on here were disparaging against novice riders or non-competition homes. They do make up the bulk of the British horse riding population. I dont breed for that market specifically as a non competitive rider has a more limited budget generally than someone looking for a sports mount and also is more likely to want a finsihed article rather than a foal.
I also have seen highly suspect temperaments in mares and stallions, in fact I remeber going to see one very well known TB stallion and being amazed at the 'temperament' he showed, and sure enough I didnt breed to him, although i see plenty of his stock on the show circuit so I know people did breed to him in good numbers.
 
I do see your point Shilasdair, but I think what many of the breeders on here are saying is that as breeders they must aim to breed the very best possible sport horses, even though obviously not all of them will make it to the top.

Surely even 'happy hackers' and RC riders deserve to ride well-bred horses with good conformation and paces? And surely no breeder should actually set out to breed mediocre horses?

Even when doing one's best to breed top-class horses, one will often end up with many that don't quite make the top grade, but they should still be good, workmanlike horses who can do a job and stay sound.
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I do see your point Shilasdair, but I think what many of the breeders on here are saying is that as breeders they must aim to breed the very best possible sport horses, even though obviously not all of them will make it to the top.

Surely even 'happy hackers' and RC riders deserve to ride well-bred horses with good conformation and paces? And surely no breeder should actually set out to breed mediocre horses?

Even when doing one's best to breed top-class horses, one will often end up with many that don't quite make the top grade, but they should still be good, workmanlike horses who can do a job and stay sound.
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It's a nice theory, but in practice it's rather difficult to do IF you're breeding for the top end of the competition market. There is a limit to how many traits you can select for - and the 'best' competition stallion may not have the sort of temperament to suit a pleasure rider. The 'failures' for breeders aiming at this end of the market are horses that don't jump well enough - or don't move well enough. Many are still likely to be too 'sharp' for the week-end pleasure rider.

Breeding Irish Draughts, temperament is right at the TOP of my list (the bu**ers are too damn big to be 'difficult'). Then there's 'type' - because an ID can be a very nice horse but if it's not 'typey' enough it won't grade. Then movement and conformation. If they happen to be great jumpers, that's fine - but most serious jumping riders wouldn't consider an RID anyway - even though there are dozens of A Grade RID's.

But RIDs become jumpers if their owner wants to go down that road with an RID - they aren't the breed of first choice for someone who is looking for jumping ability FIRST!

I think it's actually harder for those breeding competition horses to place their 'also-rans'. If one of my IDs isn't quite typey enough to grade - he/she will still be a great pleasure horse/hunter for your average week-end/pleasure rider because temperament IS up at the top of the list. If a competition-bred horse lacks top ability - but is still a 'professional ride' the options are rather more limited.
 
But this is the problem; good allrounders are seen as 'mediocre' because they aren't top class at anything, even whilst they may actually be very good at most things. Even eventers have been described as 'Jack of all trades and masters of none' because they don't show jump to the level of showjumpers or do dressage to the level of specialist dressage horses. I think this attitude is growing, too, as the disciplines advance and sportshorses become more specialist. HTobago- you should know this well, because its just the sort of criticism levelled at Arabs.

We shouldn't regard good all-rounders as mediocre. My 2nd horse was an ex-racehorse; she was a wonderful horse and it was great to ride a horse of that sort of scope & power, even if I didn't make as much use of her abilities as a better rider would have done; so far be it from me to say an ordinary rider shouldn't have well bred - if affordably sub-standard- competition horse. However, I think I would have done far more and progressed further had I had a tailor-made all-rounder, a go-anywhere, do-anything confidence-giver at that stage in my riding life; oh and a cheap horse to keep; resiliant, sociable, sound, weatherproof, no saddle-fitting / farriery worries, etc. etc. - all the things that aren't really considered in the first instance in a competition horse.

Maybe we actually need a registry for perfect, non-specialist saddle horses, which seem to be disappearring under the tide of specialists, and which never seem to command a decent price if you breed them, but which are worth their weight in gold if you own one, and as rare as unicorns of you want to buy one. That would put the prices up a little (not too much; as they'd be almost as cheap to keep as natives) and offer breeders a structure within which to breed the best- but a different best.
 
Very good points JG and alleycat.

I'm only really familiar with pure-Arab breeding, so please forgive my ignorance on sport-horse breeding.

Is it necessarily the case that a horse bred for top-level competition (whether it be eventing, dressage or sj) will be too sharp or hot for an amateur rider, should it fail to make the grade as a superstar sport horse? Are all of the top sport-horse sires (and dams) sharp/hot/difficult horses, whose offspring are unsuitable for amateur/RC riders?

If this is the case, then you are right - my arguments are unrealistic and some breeders should indeed be breeding more specifically for the general/amateur/RC/all-rounder market.

Alleycat you are right - there are similar kinds of problems in the Arab-breeding world. The main problem is some people breeding purely for the in-hand show ring - i.e. breeding for exotic type and dramatic presence with little or no regard for good conformation.

Not all of the products of such breeding programmes can be top in-hand show winners, and if type has been sought at the expense of good conformation, the 'rejects' are no use as riding horses either. "Neither use nor ornament" as my grandfather used to say!

The ideal (for good breeders) is of course to breed Arabs with both exotic type/presence and athletic conformation/ability!

Presumably the ideal for sport-horse breeders is to breed a horse with all the star quality and ability to win at top level, but also with a trainable and sensible temperament? Are some breeders achieving this ideal?
 
Actually alleycat reading your post again I really like your idea of 'a different best'!

I never meant to imply that good allrounders were 'mediocre' horses - and I like the idea of breeders striving to breed the 'perfect allrounder', which is after all what the vast majority of riders want.

I wonder what breed or (more likely) combination of breeds would produce the most perfect allrounder - the ideal non-specialist saddle-horse for the average amateur rider? What breed(s) would you recommend?
 
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Is it necessarily the case that a horse bred for top-level competition (whether it be eventing, dressage or sj) will be too sharp or hot for an amateur rider, should it fail to make the grade as a superstar sport horse? Are all of the top sport-horse sires (and dams) sharp/hot/difficult horses, whose offspring are unsuitable for amateur/RC riders?


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Mmm ... not necessarily - but in many cases it's probably inevitable. The horse who is going to win Badminton, or be a top Grand Prix horse, or whatever - HAS to have something extra about him (or her). Call it attitude, call it the will to win, or even call it horse power but the top horses have it. They are the Ferraris of the horse world - and you wouldn't put someone who'd JUST passed his driving test behind the wheel of a Ferrari.

BUT, it's probably not ALL in the breeding. A professional rider, backing and bringing on a horse he intends to compete, will want it super responsive and light to the aids. A professional trainer, backing a horse that is to be sold and is best suited to the amateur rider, will de-sensitise it a little (or a lot!) to the aids
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We do it all the time with horses who come to be backed. Some will be VERY quick off the leg and we put a fair bit of work into persuading them that random leg movements can be ignored - otherwise, when their owners got on them, they'd be in the next county before you could say 'DON'T kick!' I LIKE my horses to do a perfect walk-canter transition to the slightest push of a seatbone - I'm lazy - and my stallion does it perfectly. But you can put a novice on him and they can kick until the cows come home - they WON'T get a canter out of him! He only responds if asked correctly. But he's basically lazy!
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I've got a 7/8ths TB who'd bolt if he was given one PC-style kick! Your potential top competition horse (even a failed one) is FAR more likely to go through the roof with an unbalanced or less than sensitive rider. (Not saying ALL amateur riders are unbalanced or insensitive - but if they're stepping up from a 14.2 cob, a failed Badminton horse is probably NOT the best next step!
 
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I wonder what breed or (more likely) combination of breeds would produce the most perfect allrounder - the ideal non-specialist saddle-horse for the average amateur rider? What breed(s) would you recommend?

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Ah - there's a subject. The problem is there are such a variety of 'average amateur riders' and they all want something different. Let's take the Happy Hacker. Some want something a bit smart to ponce about on, others want something bombproof that will only get out of a trot under extreme duress! Then there's your slightly more ambitious amateur who fancies doing some unaffiliated dressage or showjumping, some hunter trials. Then there are those who want to hunt regularly through the winter and do some BE Intro classes during the Spring and summer AND compete at local show and do some clear round jumping. And within each 'category' there are HUGE variations in ability and confidence.

Many have inflated ideas of their own ability and gaily front up to try a horse advertised as 'not a novice ride'. The horse can be perfectly well mannered for a competent rider but turn into the brute from hell with someone who grips with their calves while bouncing about like a sack of spuds on the back of a farm cart. It can be a nightmare when you're selling!

I always pass horses we're selling 'down the line' before advertising them - when they're going well for my rider and myself, the full-time groom rides them, then one of the week-end girls goes on them, then a visiting friend ... just so I can be sure of what their reaction might be to the 'wrong' rider. And I've pulled a potential buyer off a horse within 2 minutes more than once - when I've realised that the stated experience was not as stated!

And of course there's then the size/weight carrying questions.

So - the perfect all-rounder can't exist - any horse can only be 'perfect' for THAT rider (or her double!) But I'd say you're looking at Natives and native crosses, cobs and cob crosses, Irish Draughts and crosses - depending on all the variables. And you're looking beyond the individual horse to the temperaments of its parents.

I know Raj improves temperament - but the mare still has a hefty influence. And having 2 or 3 or 4 full siblings from some of my mares - by Raj - it is clear that there's only SO much he can do. Scarlet - a rather hot TB mare - had her first foal NOT by Raj - and it's a real little ratbag, nearly as 'hot' as Mum. The Raj foals are MUCH more laidback - but not nearly as laidback as some of the foals by Raj out of other mares. One of my most laidback mares (other than the RID mares who are ALL laidback) is a TB x Connemara - her foal by Raj will be as close to a beginner's horse as you could get in a horse that could also do much more. And that's a cross I really like. I have another mare which I haven't bred from (she's one of our huntsman's rides at present, is 3/4 tb and a 1/4 Welsh Cob - not quite a novice ride, but a super second horse for anyone. But I've known TBxWelsh Cobs that would have been better suited to a Frenchman's dinner plate!
 
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BUT, it's probably not ALL in the breeding. A professional rider, backing and bringing on a horse he intends to compete, will want it super responsive and light to the aids. A professional trainer, backing a horse that is to be sold and is best suited to the amateur rider, will de-sensitise it a little (or a lot!) to the aids
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We do it all the time with horses who come to be backed. Some will be VERY quick off the leg and we put a fair bit of work into persuading them that random leg movements can be ignored - otherwise, when their owners got on them, they'd be in the next county before you could say 'DON'T kick!' I LIKE my horses to do a perfect walk-canter transition to the slightest push of a seatbone - I'm lazy - and my stallion does it perfectly. But you can put a novice on him and they can kick until the cows come home - they WON'T get a canter out of him! He only responds if asked correctly. But he's basically lazy!
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I've got a 7/8ths TB who'd bolt if he was given one PC-style kick! Your potential top competition horse (even a failed one) is FAR more likely to go through the roof with an unbalanced or less than sensitive rider. (Not saying ALL amateur riders are unbalanced or insensitive - but if they're stepping up from a 14.2 cob, a failed Badminton horse is probably NOT the best next step!

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I think that just proves the point that most of how a horse will turn out, regardless of breeding, depends a lot on how it is started.

My friend has a nice Irish cob, looks like a complete cart horse standing in his stable, puppy dog personality, BUT, as soon as someone gets on him God help you if you kick. He is sooo sensitive to leg aids. He really is the most stunning horse to watch being ridden (with a decent rider on top), nothing at all like what you'd expect him to be.

So not everything is down to breeding. I'm sure whoever bred him was looking to produce a nice, well mannered cob that anyone from baby to grandma could ride but this is deffinately not the case.
 
JG thats just what i was thinking as I read down the posts. The pro rider will fine tune his horse to be sensitive and it will be super fit and ready to go. Most of us dont want that degree of power but then most ridersd dont get their horses set up that way in the first place.
I know there are some bloodlines that will produce ferraris not volvos every time and so as a breeder you have to be very careful if you introduce that bloodline. but our aim is always to breed the most athletic scopey horses we can, without compromising the brain. Our breeding program is young so we shall see if we can acheive that
 
Janet thank you so much for answering both of my somewhat naive questions in such detail.

Clearly, it's all a lot more complicated than I thought, and perhaps there can never be THE perfect 'British Saddle Horse' for the average amateur rider - if only because amateur riders vary so much in their needs and wishes.

Even though I am an amateur, I want a very, very responsive horse, and one with a lot of sparkle and presence - so my choice of a high-spirited Arab stallion is perfect, for me, but would probably not be many other amateurs' idea of a 'perfect' horse LOL!
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I suppose we are actually very lucky, in this country, to have such a huge range of different breeds and types to choose from - there seems to be something to suit all tastes and requirements.
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And you are right - so much of it is in the training, rather than the breeding. If one thinks about Show Hacks, for example - most of them are either full or near-full TBs, essentially bred for speed, but they are trained to have absolutely perfect manners and never put a foot wrong, even in the highly exciting atmosphere of a big county show, or HOYS!
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i have just read the thread and would like to just add a few comments. Some of the comments mentioned I do agree and some I don't agree with. Surely it is a bit unfair (going back to the earlier comments) to condemn all studs and breeders if a few people have had bad experiences or even for their ideal to breed a quality horse and a wider view needs to be approached before passing blame. Many breeders or rather breeding regimes are governed by the studbooks. The studbooks are the ones which determine what stallions (or mares) are graded and the grading guidlines and attributes are leaning towards top class quality. There is no studbook in this country which soleley grades a stallion (or mare) for being the most quality happy hacker. All stallions on the continent are only fully graded after a performance test which also asesses their character, trainability and rideability (same in young horses classes where even 3 year olds are ridden by a test rider). But also some of the problems people have experienced in this country comes from the fact that nobody likes to put the blame on themselves. I have seen many "amateur" horses being made into, what has been earlier described as "sharp, quirky horses" by "amateur" management whether through ignorance or lack of knowledge. Some of these horses are fed like 'in training' racehorses, lacking exercise or both just as an example. Furthermore "amateurs" still like to have a quality horse to compete on or even hack. Unfortunately most people can' t often judge thier own ability and then pass the blame. But all in all I think as long as everybody works a little bit more together and don't let one bad experience condemn everybody else, breeders and riders could reach quite an amicable and successful relationship.
 
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