For all you Gypsy haters...

Harper_Gal said:
Goodo! Some people are finally getting the hang of such big words as "discussion" "debate" and "differences of opinion"

RosieFronFelen, you asked me to give you a one word answer, so I did. You specifically asked for no explination, so that's what you got.
And the answer surprised you.

And yes, I've done bucketloads in 23 years. Because I've been working since I was 12. Sometimes for a fortnight, sometimes for a month, sometimes for a whole year. I don't always get paid, but I do the work for the experience.

Sorry that I like to ensure I have experienced a bit of everything in life.
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ok HG, time you came down a peg or two being so experienced in life, along with experience should come with humility and to still be prepared to learn and respect your elders- i too had done as you say bucketloads in my "23 years" but if i had been as brazen as you in alf the yards i worked in i woud have been out on my ear, but i suppose that was in the days when folk had manners, respect and knew about the word politeness.
 
SirenaXVI said:
Bundle, you have obviously never had any real dealings with either the racing of the gypsy fraternities otherwise you would not be making this ludicrous and uninformed argument.

You seem to have a little bit of a bee in your bonnet regarding gypsies. I am certain that in your very short life you have not had any real dealings, OK maybe you met a couple of the good ones (and there ARE some very good ones), however, the majority of these so called gypsies are not gypsies at all, they are TRAVELLERS/IRISH TINKERS and there is a world of difference. If you, like so many others on here had lost beloved pets to these people, or had come across a half starved pony tethered to the side of the road, I think you would think differently. As it is you come across as uninformed and naive.

If, as you state, you have worked in the racing industry, you would know that race horses have the most pampered life of all horses. What yard did you work in to make you think differently?
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Oh Sirena... it started off so well!

It's not about personal experience, it's about the statistics from an alternative source. My opinions are not as extreme as everyone else who just blanket hates. I know that not everyone is the same, my point behind this thread is to provoke critical thought, not a trollfest and argument where everyone is calling each other names.

Yes, you saw the points and then you answered them. Congratulations. But then you descended into making it personal.

Like I said to Rosie, she asked for one word, no explination, just a word. So I gave her the honest answer of yes. You have yet to realise how stupid her question was - I could have been painting fence posts at a racing yard and that's still working there, is it not. Still, the answer is yes and it was jolly good fun.

In answer to your post, however.

Horses generally do not seem to mind swimming - it's often a dream of the normal rider to gallop through the shallows on the beach (albeit, not swimming, but once a horse gets their feet wet water is water - it's actually getting them into the water that's the issue!) and you often see photos of the Household Calvarly boys swimming around in the sea on their military mounts - which is acceptable because they're buff and they're in the army so they're seen as good.

Given that horses have to be trained to race, trained to jump, and are accompanied around these courses by riders with whips, I'm not sure swimming is any more traumatic than a steeplechase.
 
Actually, I think this post is quite thought provoking.

I guess the point is that you get some pretty rotten people in the racing industry, in the gypsy community and occassionally on HHO, so basically all walks of life.

Luckily there are also lots of great compassionate people around as well, so hopefully, in line with most HHO'ers I will just carry on doing my little bit to improve horse welfare where-ever I can influence it.
 
rosiefronfelen said:
ok HG, time you came down a peg or two being so experienced in life, along with experience should come with humility and to still be prepared to learn and respect your elders- i too had done as you say bucketloads in my "23 years" but if i had been as brazen as you in alf the yards i worked in i woud have been out on my ear, but i suppose that was in the days when folk had manners, respect and knew about the word politeness.
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How far back would you like me to respect my elders, Rosie? Because it wasn't more than a few generations ago that it was okay to dock horses tails to stop them getting tangled. And this was acceptable to my elders.

Do not mistake confidence in speaking out for cheek. If I didn't pay so much attention to what my elders have to say, how on earth do you think I learnt so much so fast?
 
Harper_Gal said:
Given that horses have to be trained to race, trained to jump, and are accompanied around these courses by riders with whips, I'm not sure swimming is any more traumatic than a steeplechase.
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Having watched horse swimming races, where the horses do indeed seemed to have been trained to swim (or at least had a practise!) - I don't think it is any more traumatic than a steeplechase (apart from the chance of a shark attack).

But the difference is in the word training - which some poor horses which are forced into the river at Appleby have certainly not had. Racing people will make sure the ground conditions are within certain parameters deemed acceptable and if its frozen or too wet races are called off, I don't know if the river was in spate if the horse swimming would be?
 
Bundle, if you think I was being personal then your debating skills are not nearly so good as you think. Please do not try to patronise me you silly little girl - yes now that was personal.

Actually I did not think Rosie's question was stupid and, as it turns out she was right to ask it - you have not worked on a racing yard but tried to give the impression that you had in order to give weight to your opinions. Silly! Silly! Silly! By doing this you just lost the debate.
 
Yeah the OP has already posted this thread once today with the word '****' in the title and calling other people racist and got a slap on the wrist.
You would think she would learn
 
Personally, I can see both sides of this.
We rescued our mare from the gypsies when she was 2, she was terribly thin and very unapproachable and they couldn't really care less about letting her go. I don't know what they were using her for and I'm not sure I'd want to know, with the state she was in when we acquired her! Today she's a fighting fit, bolshy mare with a very loveable attitude. She jumps, she schools, she hacks, she's a lovely companion and we have a go at everything together! :)
However, I have seen some very devoted travellers whose horses are their prized possessions and are looked after, sometimes better than the ones on our yard....
I'm not a fan of Appleby or the Grand National, but as said before they are traditions and I guess all we can do is monitor these events and try and rid them of cruelty/mistreatment - maybe it is education that is needed???
 
Stencilface said:
Having watched horse swimming races, where the horses do indeed seemed to have been trained to swim (or at least had a practise!) - I don't think it is any more traumatic than a steeplechase (apart from the chance of a shark attack).

But the difference is in the word training - which some poor horses which are forced into the river at Appleby have certainly not had. Racing people will make sure the ground conditions are within certain parameters deemed acceptable and if its frozen or too wet races are called off, I don't know if the river was in spate if the horse swimming would be?
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*Thanks the Gods*

We've turned a corner, I think! The debate is happening now!

Thats an excellent point that I'm not sure I can counter straight up. Human children cannot swim without lessons, so why expect a horse to know how to swim straight away! And a leafy fence is considerably less scary than reflective water. Anyone who has tried hacking through puddles will know that!

And some horses really, really don't like getting wet. My first pony would rather jump puddles than shame himself by getting dirty.

However, when swimming all one needs to encourage is trust of the water and the swimming motion. Racing itself entails the starts (gates, in flat racing), the jumping, the running... There's more areas to train a horse in than simply swimming!

Who's to say that some Gypsy horses aren't trained to swim prior to the fairs?
 
Harper_Gal said:
How far back would you like me to respect my elders, Rosie? Because it wasn't more than a few generations ago that it was okay to dock horses tails to stop them getting tangled. And this was acceptable to my elders.

Do not mistake confidence in speaking out for cheek. If I didn't pay so much attention to what my elders have to say, how on earth do you think I learnt so much so fast?
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so my question to you was stupid i gather? thank you for that. how many years did you work full time on a racing yard? is that a good enough question for you or too beneath you to answer an easy question? as regards respect you have really no idea how obnoxious you have been to so manypeople on this thread, as your head is so high in the air which tells me that you may have all the AS levels, diplomas blah blah but you are a very young person for your age and naive to everybody elses feelings-try humility, it might surprise you and help you through the long trip of life!
 
4faults said:
Yeah the OP has already posted this thread once today with the word '****' in the title and calling other people racist and got a slap on the wrist.
You would think she would learn
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Who is 'she'...the cat's mother?

The original poster is trying to get a valid point across. However it is taken by others is really out of her control, everyone is different, we all have ways of getting things out. I knew what 'she' was getting at. I also see clearly her point of view, all Harper_Girl is trying to do, is show her opinion that cruelty is cruelty in her eyes, whether is be through a traveller's horsefair, or a multi-million pound industry.

It WAS beginning to settle down and everyone was starting to discuss things in a more sensible fashion. Posts like these will only inflame the situation further.
 
Harper_Gal said:
Reposted due to the title apparently breaching terms and conditions... apparently Admin can't just edit these things...

statistics from 2009:
1 horse died at Appleby Horse fair
5 horses died at the Grand National

A major source of issue at Appleby is the forcing of horses into the River Eden
Only 17 out of 40 horses were successfully forced around the 2009 Grand National Circuit

People complain about Gypsy horses left tethered or abandoned
Yet every year the racing industry produces thousands of useless horses that go for slaughter or end up neglected

Gypsy horses are trotted on the streets, which is apparently cruel and damages their legs
Yet most of the National fatalities over the years are broken legs.

You wanna prove you're not racist - Ban the Grand National as well as calling for a ban on Appleby.

From earlier - apparently you can't force horses to run races - so how can you force them to swim? Either both are force, or neither are force, horses don't see the difference like we do.

The statistics are BOTH from animal aid website - so either they're both right or they're both wrong.

This is a post intended to make you think about hypocrasy, I'm neither flying a flag for banning racing nor flying a flag for Appleby. It's intended to spark discussion.
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Yeh those B*******, many's the time I've found race horse owners racing their quad bikes over my winter grazing, nicking my heating oil and dumping rubbish and industrial waste on my paddocks! Or perhaps I've got that the wrong way round....

Yes - The racing industry could take a good look at what happens to horses that don't make the grade, but don't forget that's where a lot of the hunters/eventers/riding club horses come from. I won't make the point of the bloodstock industry paying thousands into the economy as we all know our friends from Appleby give just as much back into the economy.

"apparently you can't force horses to run races - so how can you force them to swim? Either both are force, or neither are force, horses don't see the difference like we do"

Simple...to force them to swim you drive them into a river...as for forcing them to race..try finding a horse that naturally doesn't want to follow the herd if they take off at speed!

By the way not racist, just against anyone who steals my heating oil...white, black, yellow, or green
 
In the words of Harry Hill - "FIGHT !!!!!". You can not make a racehorse run if it doesnt want to, for example the National this year, can't remember the horses name but that bugger wasn't going anywhere even tho it's against it's natural instincts by that I mean stay with the herd. The thousands of pounds invested in breeding, keeping,training etc of a racehorse means trainers / owners are not going to enter races thinking 'oh well if it breaks a leg we'll just get another one'. That is my humble opinion and as most of the posts say there is good and bad in every discipline from your top riders to the little local show.
 
Er....what? Why would forcing a horse to swim be any more cruel than forcing a horse into a trailer/do rollkur/jump a scary ditch? This isn't the worst thing that gets done to travelling ponies.

I think the point is that racehorses may be injured and killed in races but up until then, they live/eat and are cared for well. They don't worry about things like hyper-extension of the carpus/ tendon injuries, they live in the now and as they are looked after well they are happy.

Travelling horses are tethered, often without water, sometimes without adequate forage, sometimes with uncomfortable headcollars/rope/hobbles or maybe turned out in ragwort to suffer slowly and unnoticed until their liver packs up. This is an almost constant suffering and this is the "here and now" that horses live in, they don't hope that it will get better as they have no concept of "the future" they just live with it, all day every day until it ends.

Racehorses are worked young but they are bred to mature quicker and they DO NOT jump or canter on the road or get battered while pulling carts while they're 1 or 2 years old. It is a very different lifestyle and I don't think anyone would say that you can compare the two.

QED.
 
SirenaXVI said:
Bundle, if you think I was being personal then your debating skills are not nearly so good as you think. Please do not try to patronise me you silly little girl - yes now that was personal.

Actually I did not think Rosie's question was stupid and, as it turns out she was right to ask it - you have not worked on a racing yard but tried to give the impression that you had in order to give weight to your opinions. Silly! Silly! Silly! By doing this you just lost the debate.
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I'm not silly and I'm not little, ta very much! But well observed on my gender!

You were. Firstly using the name Bundle. Which is that of a banned user. Think you know me, use my name. Don't use a name no one else does. Makes you look a tad... silly...

And you were being personal, drawing on my personal experience as the only thing I had to debate from. I'm not that closested and ignorant that I am incapble of research!

I have worked on a racing yard. I exercised point to pointers one winter. I would spend a few hours in the morning trotting up and down country lanes, it was absolutely jolly good fun!

But Rosie said she didn't want to know, so I answered her honestly. Yes, I'm being a bit petty on that one, but Rosie isn't exactly pleasant inside the hunting forum.



And the post was not pulled because of my use of the word racist. I changed that at my own discretion. According to the Moderator, the use of the word in the title was the only breach.
 
KellysHeroes said:
Personally, I can see both sides of this.
We rescued our mare from the gypsies when she was 2, she was terribly thin and very unapproachable and they couldn't really care less about letting her go. I don't know what they were using her for and I'm not sure I'd want to know, with the state she was in when we acquired her! Today she's a fighting fit, bolshy mare with a very loveable attitude. She jumps, she schools, she hacks, she's a lovely companion and we have a go at everything together! :)
However, I have seen some very devoted travellers whose horses are their prized possessions and are looked after, sometimes better than the ones on our yard....
I'm not a fan of Appleby or the Grand National, but as said before they are traditions and I guess all we can do is monitor these events and try and rid them of cruelty/mistreatment - maybe it is education that is needed???
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An excellent post. And of course....we all know it's not just travellers who often 'couldn't care less' about their horses....a horse was found emaciated round these parts not too long ago. Those people were house owners....
 
Stencilface has made an excellent point, race horses are trained by professional people, what ever situation these horses have to face, they have been trained with patience and knowledge if they are unable to come to terms with question that is being asked they start again. Horses at Appleby dont have this careful training to enter the river Eden, they are beaten by children, men or whoever is on the scene to get them in. You have never answered my question HG, taking in your wealth of experience in life, have you ever been to Appleby New Fair???
 
Horses should be allowed free access to water, not just a bucket taken around once a day. They will not die of dehydration but I can't imagine how uncomfortable it must be for the other 23 hours.
 
Harper_Gal said:
Who's to say that some Gypsy horses aren't trained to swim prior to the fairs?
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Ok, so I have never been to appleby, but from footage I have seen people are seen to be hitting and beating their horses to get them to go in, and wasn't it only a few years back when one drowned during the pushing the head under ceremony?

None of the horses in the swimming races looked forced to do it, all went it without a qualm, their 'jockeys' swum above their back and at no point did the horses heads/noses dip or be pushed below the water.

So I think horses trained to compete swim racing and traditional terrestrial horse racing, are completely different to the swimming of horses and dipping of heads at appleby.
 
zefragile said:
The OP, as 4faults clearly mentioned. Not sure what that has to do with the "debate" anyway.
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One was asking for clarification, or is that frowned upon here?

I get very little time for forums these days as my profile will show to when I joined....so one has to guess alot of the time. So what's 'OP'....please kindly tell me, or is it something that people know who spend much of their time on the computer?

What's it got to do with the debate? Alot actually, when you wish to know to whom 'she' is......
 
For me there is no comparison between racing and travellers, purely from the perspective that I can choose to watch racing or not and whether I become involved in it. Travellers tend to be forced on communities.

Travellers (some, probably most) camp where they like, leave excrement where they like - a few years ago on the local rugby pitch, lovely for the kids to fall in; steal what they want and cause a trail of mayhem with thefts, fights and huge disruption to the local community. Plus of course the local tax payer picks up the tab for it all.

I've never had those issues with my local racing yard!

I'm sure that there can be cruelty in all equestrianism, however I find it is on a much greater level with travellers. I've witnessed a drive before, watched horses hammered down the road after unloading from long journeys, flogged all day then loaded up and carted off to another long journey home. Many had bleeding mouths, overreach injuries etc and were never offered water. One of the people driving was banned from owning horses because of cruelty issues, everyone knew and kept quiet as he whipped his new horse along and the police did nothing.

Certainly there are some who are fine with there animals, but plenty more aren't.
 
We get a lot of travellers/gypsies in our area, many of whom have horses. In my entire life, I have only seen one well-looked after horse, and even then there was a lot of room for improvement. I fully appreciate that there are some travellers/gypsies who take good care of their animals, but I just haven't come across them. I really try not to be biased against them, but it is getting harder and harder to stick up for any newcomers when other people automatically dismiss them as cruel.

With regards to the flogging of racehorses: I will admit that this is my least favourite part of racing. However, I have seen gypsies and travellers flog horses many times.

Oh, and can people stop being horrible to the poster? He/she has stated many times that the opinion stated isn't their own and that they were merely trying to start a debate.
 
DragonSlayer said:
Who is 'she'...the cat's mother?

The original poster is trying to get a valid point across. However it is taken by others is really out of her control, everyone is different, we all have ways of getting things out. I knew what 'she' was getting at. I also see clearly her point of view, all Harper_Girl is trying to do, is show her opinion that cruelty is cruelty in her eyes, whether is be through a traveller's horsefair, or a multi-million pound industry.

It WAS beginning to settle down and everyone was starting to discuss things in a more sensible fashion. Posts like these will only inflame the situation further.
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Yes DragonSlayer its my post that is going to inflame the situation. I think you missed the point of the post and if you didn't want to 'inflame' the situation you could have just not replied
 
my last new forest pony used to love apple bobbing....he would put his head right in the waterand turn the bucket into a jacuzzi - noone ever made him but her loved it! LOL
Lets face it theres cruelty in all areas, my personal pet hate is spoilt children who jab thier ponies in the mouth when the little darlings havnt got them the rosette mummy promised they'd have! I enjoy reading these debates but do wish they wouldnt get so personal....!
 
4faults said:
Yes DragonSlayer its my post that is going to inflame the situation. I think you missed the point of the post and if you didn't want to 'inflame' the situation you could have just not replied
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You didn't need to reply either in the first place, people complained that H_G was posting imflammatory things, blah blah blah....and getting people's backs up. A post like yours does the same. Where do we draw the line?
 
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