For all you Gypsy haters...

Harper-Gal: "And for personal experience - I have never had an animal stolen, but I've had my car broken into more than once. I get the odd nightmare where I've left something valuable in the car, but I'd never get sick.

Grief is natural. Wallowing in it to the point you become ill and then just blaming everyone else but yourself for that illness isn't healthy for anyone."


Absolutely.....CLASSIC!!! Are you training to become a counsellor as well as your other varied job experiences in life?!!!!

Blaming who by the way?
___
 
Harper_Gal said:
And for personal experience - I have never had an animal stolen, but I've had my car broken into more than once. I get the odd nightmare where I've left something valuable in the car, but I'd never get sick.
I did, however, suffer well for the affects of losing a horse to colic. Looking back I wish someone had told me to man up, because it was costly.
Grief is natural. Wallowing in it to the point you become ill and then just blaming everyone else but yourself for that illness isn't healthy for anyone.
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Oh no, not the car, that living breathing much loved family member-chunk of metal. Well, as for the money. . .
. . .How did you cope?
 
Oh, by the way HG, I never could really grieve properly for my horse as I didn't know whether he was dead or alive after he was stolen. I'm afraid it's not a push button reaction but a long protracted emotional rollercoaster of turmoil when one's horse is stolen.

It's also called having no closure because you don't know what has happened. But I am wallowing again by something that was a 'calculated crime' and being on the receiving end we were the 'victims' of the crime.
 
my only though on this discussion is thoroughbreds are bred to race in is set in the DNA they love it. even my retired races love to go for a good gallop so they are hardly forced.

i don't care either about appleby they are very well policed and i think its a shame when any horse dies in accidents but there are plenty of people who die every day in accidents.
 
Harper_Gal said:
Now you are being an excellent manipulator. I wouldn't have posted in the stolen forum section unless it was about gypsies or wind plaits, which are apparently caused by gypsies.Actually it was me who blamed travellers for stealing my dogs, the first one my son actually witnessed and took the number plate - police did not want to know because they were travellers. The second two (in two separate instances) I was told by a proper gypsy who had taken them, he tried to intervene and guess what? All 12 of his lurchers went missing

So unless you directly blamed gypsies or posted in a thread about them, which would implicate your post as being aimed at gypsies, then I wasn't the person replying to you. I think you need to apologise to DebbieCG

Pastie - it gives no incite at all. I just happen to not see a point in making yourself sick over missing animals and I happen to not see a point in sugar coating my point. I don't think you can read me as being rude for being honest (tactless, I'll admit to, it's a forte!)There speaks someone who has never lost an animal through theft and is therefore not qualified imho to comment

Sirena - From where we sat it felt like a darn site more than a small minority camping out for the races.
However, to your point that I cannot link the travellers behaviour with the organisers - surely that is hippocritical? If travellers mess up an event organised by settled folk, it's no one's fault, but if they mess up one of their own events, it's awful. You know as well as I do that is not what I said - please do not twist my words

And for personal experience - I have never had an animal stolen, but I've had my car broken into more than once. I get the odd nightmare where I've left something valuable in the car, but I'd never get sick. Good grief! This one speaks for itself
I did, however, suffer well for the affects of losing a horse to colic. Looking back I wish someone had told me to man up, because it was costly.
Grief is natural. Wallowing in it to the point you become ill and then just blaming everyone else but yourself for that illness isn't healthy for anyone. I have also lost a horse to colic as, I am sure, have many others, yes the emotional pain is terrible but it does not compare even slightly to not knowing the fate of a much loved animal
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Bundle/HG you have surpassed yourself
 
JessandCharlie said:
Oh no, not the car, that living breathing much loved family member-chunk of metal. Well, as for the money. . .
. . .How did you cope?
Click to expand...

Well said!
My Toby was stolen the week before and yes it was travellers who took him - they were seen and I had a witness. They parked outside my field and stole hiom the same as they have done to other poor horses and devestated owners.
Just today Ive had notification from HW that a shetland stolen the othger week has been found - on a traveller site - but no one knows how it got there!

So maybe it was me you were thinking of HG, I said they took him because I KNOW they did And you have been incredibaly cruel to DebbieCG - you should be ashamed.
My Toby was part of our family, I still cry when I look at his pics and videos - he is mine and I want him back where he should be.
So its going to be no surprise to you or anyone else that there are members of society I hate and events that I hate and think should be banned!
 
rosiefronfelen said:
i'm still waiting for answers to my questions to HG and those were pages back? never mind- i think its time that our little agricultural student took some time out to reflect.
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Rosie, she has gone on to SB, with the same comments, I suggested that she should go on to Common Room, they might be more easily persuaded!
 
Sorry, not sure what SB is either, but it's a relief HG has gone there for now!

I've never seen anyone twist other's opinions to that degree, laughable if some of the topics weren't so serious. After being the one to initially provoke, HG then rarely answers the questions asked by insulted forum members. It's hard to decipher if that's lack of intelligence or just twisted. As previously mentioned, have come across HG's offensive attitude before and it doesn't restore one's faith.

It's anybody's guess whether HG's provocation and hypocrisy are intentional or not - are they a troll?
 
There is an interesting debate in here somewhere.

Someone mentioned traditions, and how they will never be stopped. Fox hunting was a traditional pastime, practised by a section of the community with, arguably, a decent set of morals and a sense of compassion for their chosen quarry, yet it was effectively ruined by other members of society who declared it was cruel to foxes.

I wonder why the balaclava-clad animal rights activists are not in evidence at Appleby fair, championing the rights of horses in the cruel hands of (some) gypsy/travellers. LACS are relentless in their pursuit of the fox hunters' activities, yet seem unaware of the horse fair issues. Could it be that they don't perceive (some of) the treatment of horses enroute to, and at, the fair to be cruel, or is it that they are simply sh**ting themselves at the prospect of a ruck with the gyps?

Perhaps some of their (usually) vociferous supporters on this forum may like to comment.

I have been to Appleby, before anyone asks, and I saw lots of things which I would deem cruel, and I saw RSPCA 'officers' looking the other way. Anyone who has been will have tales to tell of cruelty and exploitation.

However, there is a sense of timeless continuity at Appleby, and a feeling that one is experiencing something special. The washing of the horses in the river; the flashing up and down the roads; the waggons and harness, and the people themselves, are a piece of history in which we should have pride.

It was once stated, by that fellow Banks, I think, that hunting should be erased from the history books. What a ridiculous, pompous thing to say. History cannot be detracted from. History is made and cannot be changed. History records the success and failures of the human race, and is indelible.

In light of that, we should be the ones who go down in history as those who made the horse fairs better for horses and, in doing so, preserved them for generations to come, so that we can be applauded for our efforts rather than shamed by them.

It is up to the horse owning community to persuade those in authority that there are unresolved issues which must be addressed. Those who are charged with upholding the law must do just that, and welfare rights for horses must be given and pursued.

It is no longer acceptable to have a quasi-official, public donation-funded body of ill-informed, unofficially-uniformed individuals prone to hysteria, who can't make up their minds whether a horse has been watered or not, in charge of equine welfare. The RSPCA must be replaced by a government-funded body which have the backing of a serious and potent law enforcement agency who have strict guidelines to refer to in cases of maltreatment of equines.

Would anyone like to debate these points?
 
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AengusOg said:
There is an interesting debate in here somewhere.

Someone mentioned traditions, and how they will never be stopped. Fox hunting was a traditional pastime, practised by a section of the community with, arguably, a decent set of morals and a sense of compassion for their chosen quarry, yet it was effectively ruined by other members of society who declared it was cruel to foxes.

I wonder why the balaclava-clad animal rights activists are not in evidence at Appleby fair, championing the rights of horses in the cruel hands of (some) gypsy/travellers. LACS are relentless in their pursuit of the fox hunters' activities, yet seem unaware of the horse fair issues. Could it be that they don't perceive (some of) the treatment of horses enroute to, and at, the fair to be cruel, or is it that they are simply sh**ting themselves at the prospect of a ruck with the gyps?

Perhaps some of their (usually) vociferous supporters on this forum may like to comment.

I have been to Appleby, before anyone asks, and I saw lots of things which I would deem cruel, and I saw RSPCA 'officers' looking the other way. Anyone who has been will have tales to tell of cruelty and exploitation.

However, there is a sense of timeless continuity at Appleby, and a feeling that one is experiencing something special. The washing of the horses in the river; the flashing up and down the roads; the waggons and harness, and the people themselves, are a piece of history in which we should have pride.

It was once stated, by that fellow Banks, I think, that hunting should be erased from the history books. What a ridiculous, pompous thing to say. History cannot be detracted from. History is made and cannot be changed. History records the success and failures of the human race, and is indelible.

In light of that, we should be the ones who go down in history as those who made the horse fairs better for horses and, in doing so, preserved them for generations to come, so that we can be applauded for our efforts rather than shamed by them.

It is up to the horse owning community to persuade those in authority that there are unresolved issues which must be addressed. Those who are charged with upholding the law must do just that, and welfare rights for horses must be given and pursued.

It is no longer acceptable to have a quasi-official, public donation-funded body of ill-informed, unofficially-uniformed individuals prone to hysteria, who can't make up their minds whether a horse has been watered or not, in charge of equine welfare. The RSPCA must be replaced by a government-funded body which have the backing of a serious and potent law enforcement agency who have strict guidelines to refer to in cases of maltreatment of equines.

Would anyone like to debate these points?
Click to expand...

Maybe the LACS don't mind the cruelty going on at Appleby because it isn't being perpetrated by a bunch of upper class toffs in red coats sneering down at them. It is fairly clear that LACS objection to hunting is more about class than cruelty (oh and the fact that they would get a pasting if they tried the same at Appleby!) but that is another debate entirely.
 
One part of me agrees with where HG is going, everyone sees the glossy exterior to racing, the sleek fit runners, the polished owners, but there is a very real dirty underbelly to racing, a dark side where people don't conform to the high standards seen every day.

Just because there are very many good racehorse trainers etc doesn't mean there aren't loads of bad ones, however you cannot lambast all racehorse trainers as bad OR good - because there is simply plenty of both.

At Appelby we see LOADS of the grimy underbelly - we see a lot of the worst treatment and neglect but that doesn't mean there aren't LOADS of good travellers and gypsies.

However anyone with eyes HAS to accept, Appelby is by and large an awful thing and it attracts too many of the bad eggs out into the open.

You cannot force a horse to race OR to swim. If a horse truly doesn't want to do something, you won't get it to do it. The horses going into the water at Appelby doesn't bother me, I have had to coerce my horse into water, kick kick kick - keep on keep on, nag nag - wheyy and we're in! There is usually a degree of resistance in anything a horse does for the first time.

In my opinion, travellers - I judge by merit, good ones are fabulous, bad ones are scum. As are bad racehorse trainers, bad hobby horse owners...
 
AengusOg said:
There is an interesting debate in here somewhere.

Someone mentioned traditions, and how they will never be stopped. Fox hunting was a traditional pastime, practised by a section of the community with, arguably, a decent set of morals and a sense of compassion for their chosen quarry, yet it was effectively ruined by other members of society who declared it was cruel to foxes.

I wonder why the balaclava-clad animal rights activists are not in evidence at Appleby fair, championing the rights of horses in the cruel hands of (some) gypsy/travellers. LACS are relentless in their pursuit of the fox hunters' activities, yet seem unaware of the horse fair issues. Could it be that they don't perceive (some of) the treatment of horses enroute to, and at, the fair to be cruel, or is it that they are simply sh**ting themselves at the prospect of a ruck with the gyps?

Perhaps some of their (usually) vociferous supporters on this forum may like to comment.

I have been to Appleby, before anyone asks, and I saw lots of things which I would deem cruel, and I saw RSPCA 'officers' looking the other way. Anyone who has been will have tales to tell of cruelty and exploitation.

However, there is a sense of timeless continuity at Appleby, and a feeling that one is experiencing something special. The washing of the horses in the river; the flashing up and down the roads; the waggons and harness, and the people themselves, are a piece of history in which we should have pride.

It was once stated, by that fellow Banks, I think, that hunting should be erased from the history books. What a ridiculous, pompous thing to say. History cannot be detracted from. History is made and cannot be changed. History records the success and failures of the human race, and is indelible.

In light of that, we should be the ones who go down in history as those who made the horse fairs better for horses and, in doing so, preserved them for generations to come, so that we can be applauded for our efforts rather than shamed by them.

It is up to the horse owning community to persuade those in authority that there are unresolved issues which must be addressed. Those who are charged with upholding the law must do just that, and welfare rights for horses must be given and pursued.

It is no longer acceptable to have a quasi-official, public donation-funded body of ill-informed, unofficially-uniformed individuals prone to hysteria, who can't make up their minds whether a horse has been watered or not, in charge of equine welfare. The RSPCA must be replaced by a government-funded body which have the backing of a serious and potent law enforcement agency who have strict guidelines to refer to in cases of maltreatment of equines.

Would anyone like to debate these points?
Click to expand...

Yer but no but yer but...SHUUT AAAAP, you don't even know nuffin coz the gyppos told me that they loved me and then I saw that fox hunter blokey round the back of the chipper wif his hand up foxies skirt anyways and you're all racist against everyone innit.
 
Farrierlover said:
Yer but no but yer but...SHUUT AAAAP, you don't even know nuffin coz the gyppos told me that they loved me and then I saw that fox hunter blokey round the back of the chipper wif his hand up foxies skirt anyways and you're all racist against everyone innit.
Click to expand...


That's got to be the most intelligent thing I've read in the last 24 hours.... :cool:
:D
 
I think back to my childhood - I used to help some gypsies get their horses fit for racing and these horses were looked after superbly. My friends grandad used to handcarve and paint a bow top caravan every year and go to Appleby. Unfortunately, I think the days were gypsies took pride in their horses and were the real horsemen of the day is long gone. The old timers who used to go to Appleby are dead and buried and this new generation of gypsy has taken over - they don't seem to have the same empathy with their animals. I followed a young gypsy lad (I used to ride for his dad) with a young trotter - he was doing near enough 30 miles per hour. If his dad were alive he would have taken the horsewhip to him and knocked him from one side of Doncaster to the other for doing that. I know when we were getting the road racers fit the only fast work those horses did was during a race. None of those horses had splints or had legs - they were brought on as well as a licenced racehorse trainer would bring a flat horse or a jumper on - if not better.

Although the tradition of Appleby lives on, the tradition of gypsies being decent horsemen who's most prized possession was their horse hasn't lived on with it.
 
I've put a couple of posts on about Appleby, and I have only done so, because of what I see every year, living not far from the site. But I am no way racist. I stopped at one camp near where my horse is to talk to one of the travellers, as his horses were gorgeous, and I wanted to find out the prices they are likely to go for. My only problem was following what he said as he spoke so fast, but he was lovely, and his wife showed me the Bow Top.

I have heard horror stories from racing yards (a friend worked at one for years) and at hunt stables too. Believe me, animal abuse is across the board, from the very top to the very bottom, and everywhere in between.
 
I know nothing about the racing industry so cannot comment except a friend who does work in it did tell me that the youngsters that don,t make the grade end up in the "chuck it and **** it sales". She said it with no feeling at all so assume this is the norm for her place of work, it,s quite sad really as this girl used to have compassion for all equines untill she worked in the racing industry.

Anyone that knows me would never describe me as "pink and fluffy" I,m a retired gamekeepers daughter and often helped dad in his days work, wether that was fox and vermin control and then going off with the beaters on shooting days.

So bare in mind the above statment when I say I have been to several gypsy horse fairs, and I can assure you the year I went to appleby 3 horses died, 2 drowned in the river and one that was dumped in a ditch to rot (do not know how that one died).

I also saw a 13.2hh yearling being ridden by a grown man who looked very distressed and tired, a minnie shettie pulling a cart with 4 people in the cart up the appleby hill who was clearly struggling with the weight. I saw with my own eyes young boys whipping and kicking shouting filth at horses that refused to go in the river.

And yes I saw the RSPCA all over the place and at no point did they do anything to stop just the few things I saw whilst at the fair, so are the RSPCA officer scared of the gypsies or is it ok to abuse animals in the above way.

I saw lots of cruelty there so it really did not matter by the end of my visit how many well cared for horses I saw there, lets face it bad news travels quicker than good.

So Harper girl you can stick appleby "if you like it you go there and look at the pretty ponies and close your eyes and ears to the cruelty you know that happens there" And don,t forget to take your rose tinted glasses.
 
gala said:
or get a horse that's practically a foal to run at great distance at top speed, beating it when it's closer to the winning post for the gratification of the great British sporting public.....
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I am yet to see a 2yr old running in the National!!! :p It's a long hard road to get a horse to the National and these will be hardened chasers. If you're an eventer you'll see it is the same as the pro's don't run their horses at 4/5 at events like Badminton and Burghley!! They are neither prepped nor ready. I am chuckling over the comparison of Appleby to Aintree... I suppose they do both start with an A and contain 7 letters!!! :D:D
 
Oh dear, bit of a slanging match, I think I may have contributed with my original post but I was upset to see SO MANY horses tethered without water or supervision. Would you stick your horse/pony on a long lead rope and leave it by the A66? I wouldn't, I worry if I haven't seen my boy for a few hours. That road is a motorway, what if the horse spooked, got tangled up and panicked etc I don't think that any of these posts are racist it wou'dn't matter to me who it was mistreating horses but a collection of people at the same event does in my opinion need addressing.
 
Animal cruelty should be dealt with wherever it occurs, posh yard or little bit of scrub land down your street, so yes I totally agree, if it's wrong it's wrong, problem is, some parts of the community seem to be immune from a lot of the laws of the land hiding behind "way of life" "human rights" ****, and the powers that be seem reluctant to intervene, the posh yard will have HSE inspectons, employers liability ect ect, so not quite the same comparison, particularly when certain members of the community dont even hold a road fund licence never mind anything else..........
 
OP

There are problems or cruel practices in all areas of the equestrian world ,I don't disagree with what your trying to point out.

I really don't think it's fair to compare a horse fair with the racing industry, because there is hell of alot that goes on behind the scenes in both (and other horse related sports/pastimes) which could then put a complete spin on what your view is now on the two.

If only your points were as black and white as that though.
 
Harper_Gal said:
Reposted due to the title apparently breaching terms and conditions... apparently Admin can't just edit these things...

statistics from 2009:
1 horse died at Appleby Horse fair
5 horses died at the Grand National

A major source of issue at Appleby is the forcing of horses into the River Eden
Only 17 out of 40 horses were successfully forced around the 2009 Grand National Circuit

People complain about Gypsy horses left tethered or abandoned
Yet every year the racing industry produces thousands of useless horses that go for slaughter or end up neglected

Gypsy horses are trotted on the streets, which is apparently cruel and damages their legs
Yet most of the National fatalities over the years are broken legs.

You wanna prove you're not racist - Ban the Grand National as well as calling for a ban on Appleby.



From earlier - apparently you can't force horses to run races - so how can you force them to swim? Either both are force, or neither are force, horses don't see the difference like we do.

The statistics are BOTH from animal aid website - so either they're both right or they're both wrong.

This is a post intended to make you think about hypocrasy, I'm neither flying a flag for banning racing nor flying a flag for Appleby. It's intended to spark discussion.
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Hmm .... I wonder if it was the racing industry didn't pinched my saddle a week before Appleby ?
 
I do think, also for the sake of clarity, it should be pointed out that 5 horses died not in the Grand National, but over the festival itself.........
 
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