For those against Rollkur.....

[Stilldreamin']

Would be interested in a hoody, please PM!
Spent all weekend getting aerated on this subject so might as well put my money where my mouth is !!

 

[Stilldreamin']

Maybe this might help?

First pony is just overbent:

But this horse is being ridden using Rollkur:

Can you see a difference now?

In a lot of pics i find it's the sheer force being exerted by the rider that can really be the telling difference- if you snipped the reins on these riders pony rider would stay in the plate- whereas this lady below looks like she'd fall off backwards!

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...176732.1512297978&type=3&l=fcb43e0706&theater

 

[tristar]

notice the eyes of that horse, it can't see where its bloody going!

people who do this should be sent to learn to ride properly, to learn to ride a living, feeling creature and show its beauty.

its time to show the world what is being done to horses in the name of 'sport'


as someone said earlier, ' if you treated a dog like that for ten minutes you'd be prosecuted'

 

[RuthM]

This thread has educated me. Seven years full time with horses, another 10 on top riding daily/working weekends, another 3 on top of that working weekends - and I had never seen or heard of rollkur!

Days ago when the thread popped up I googled images and stared in horror. Initially, before I googled, I suspected it'd be another perhaps less than desirable but sometimes useful schooling tool, I suspected I'd pass off the hype and think, 'well it's not for me but there's better things to get hot under the collar about'. Honestly, I was floored and I'm not sensitive, I think of horse training as a journey of a few 1000 years, that we aren't there yet doesn't surprise or disgust me, it is the way it is and mostly it's about small steps in the right direction.

Had I ever seen my old boss doing that I'd have left, had my old boss ever seen me doing that I'd have been sacked! It is a contortion, that's not yielding, yielding is about offering, that's not offering, it's not a gift it's a theft, it is to take to show a horses will can be taken, it struck me like rape, about power and degradation of another.

It seems to me the dressage equivalent of the BSJA (and the BSJA - is it used in SJ? I travelled as a groom to countless BSJA shows and am sure I'd have noticed but this IS fresh to me), any governing body needs to make a clear and unshiftable stance against it. I am not, and apart from a handful of times, have never been a competitor but I'm not sure that if I was I could hand over any affiliation fee to any body not willing to make a clear stand against this.

A hoody wouldn't do much good on me, I doubt I go anywhere now where anyone would know what the hell it is but it is something I'd talk about with friends more educated than myself and still properly in the horse world.

It's days since I googled the images but my feelings have stayed just as fresh, enough to come back, say I hadn't the first clue and add to those getting stuck in fighting it. It's gross beyond belief. Everything I've ever learned or taught to younger grooms is at the polar opposite to this - and BTW, I'm pro draw reins used well, pro double bridles in the right hands and at the right time, see no objection to a horse offering an overbent outline, they, like us, are learning and when offered not taken I think the effort needs reward. Being slightly over bent is just a step on the path, not ideal but doesn't phase me in the least. Rollkur shocked me.

Thank you for the education.

 

[kerilli]

That is the point. It is NOT just about the positioning (although ime horses going very deep to avoid the contact do not put their chins on their chests) it is about FORCE, and then maintaining that force to keep the horse there for extended periods.
We mustn't start a witch-hunt against anyone whose horse goes overbent! But the force is always apparent if you look carefully, I believe.

 

[misterjinglejay]

This thread has educated me. Seven years full time with horses, another 10 on top riding daily/working weekends, another 3 on top of that working weekends - and I had never seen or heard of rollkur!

Days ago when the thread popped up I googled images and stared in horror. Initially, before I googled, I suspected it'd be another perhaps less than desirable but sometimes useful schooling tool, I suspected I'd pass off the hype and think, 'well it's not for me but there's better things to get hot under the collar about'. Honestly, I was floored and I'm not sensitive, I think of horse training as a journey of a few 1000 years, that we aren't there yet doesn't surprise or disgust me, it is the way it is and mostly it's about small steps in the right direction.

Had I ever seen my old boss doing that I'd have left, had my old boss ever seen me doing that I'd have been sacked! It is a contortion, that's not yielding, yielding is about offering, that's not offering, it's not a gift it's a theft, it is to take to show a horses will can be taken, it struck me like rape, about power and degradation of another.

It seems to me the dressage equivalent of the BSJA (and the BSJA - is it used in SJ? I travelled as a groom to countless BSJA shows and am sure I'd have noticed but this IS fresh to me), any governing body needs to make a clear and unshiftable stance against it. I am not, and apart from a handful of times, have never been a competitor but I'm not sure that if I was I could hand over any affiliation fee to any body not willing to make a clear stand against this.

A hoody wouldn't do much good on me, I doubt I go anywhere now where anyone would know what the hell it is but it is something I'd talk about with friends more educated than myself and still properly in the horse world.

It's days since I googled the images but my feelings have stayed just as fresh, enough to come back, say I hadn't the first clue and add to those getting stuck in fighting it. It's gross beyond belief. Everything I've ever learned or taught to younger grooms is at the polar opposite to this - and BTW, I'm pro draw reins used well, pro double bridles in the right hands and at the right time, see no objection to a horse offering an overbent outline, they, like us, are learning and when offered not taken I think the effort needs reward. Being slightly over bent is just a step on the path, not ideal but doesn't phase me in the least. Rollkur shocked me.

Thank you for the education.

Just wanted to say - what a fantastic post. If the uproar about rollkur educates people, then the rest will follow!

 

[RuthM]

That is the point. It is NOT just about the positioning (although ime horses going very deep to avoid the contact do not put their chins on their chests) it is about FORCE, and then maintaining that force to keep the horse there for extended periods.
We mustn't start a witch-hunt against anyone whose horse goes overbent! But the force is always apparent if you look carefully, I believe.

I don't think (beyond a brief education) that'll be a problem with those who've schooled plenty of young horses because it's experience that teaches a horse being over bent is usually just it over doing it in effort and self corrects if that effort is rewarded with flow, or a rider who's beginning to get it and will, if on the right track, also self correct with confidence and time.

The problem may well occur though with those spectators that watch without having had many young horses actually in their hands. I guess that's why it's something I think has to be led by governing bodies that have easy access to abundant experience.

Rollkur and why it isn't the same as being overbent could prove a real tool to teach the very core of riding, which I believe is forward motion and reading whether forward motion is there or not, getting people to grasp that even in reverse they should be engaged in forward motion, that it's the first lesson on the lunge, it's at the heart of every conversation through hands and leg with a horse. But then again, to encourage forward motion a horse needs to be rewarded, and dare I say it loved.

 

[Vanha12]

It is a contortion, that's not yielding, yielding is about offering, that's not offering, it's not a gift it's a theft, it is to take to show a horses will can be taken, it struck me like rape, about power and degradation of another.

Very eloquently put. I think this says it all. Great post.

 

[YasandCrystal]

It's sad that riders like Edward Gal for who there seems to be much respect use rollkur for training their horses at home. It is abuse of the horse.

 

[fburton]

notice the eyes of that horse, it can't see where its bloody going!

You took the words right out of my mouth.

Is it right that a horse should be prevented from seeing directly in front when travelling at speed?

 

[Helen000]

Could you pm me too please as I would like to order a couple.

 

[Marydoll]

It is a contortion, that's not yielding, yielding is about offering, that's not offering, it's not a gift it's a theft, it is to take to show a horses will can be taken, it struck me like rape, about power and degradation of another.

Very eloquently put. I think this says it all. Great post.

This is rollkur, i agree, it would make you weep for the horse.

 

[jessdarcy]

World Horse Welfare

UPDATE: We understand from the FEI that they have spoken to the stewards who were monitoring Patrik Kittel’s training session and they have confirmed that he was not in breach of the rules as Kittel only maintained the horse’s head and neck in that position for very short periods. The rules state that “deliberate extreme flexions of the neck involving either high, low or lateral head carriages, should only be performed for very short periods. If performed for longer periods the steward will intervene.” The FEI is responsible for setting and implementing the rules, and World Horse Welfare will continue to discuss these rules with them.

World Horse Welfare is clear that aggressive force should not be used in ANY training methods or during competition, and the welfare of the horse must take precedence over ALL other considerations. This is the basis of the FEI Code of Conduct and riders have a personal responsibility within the Code for the welfare of their horses. That is a responsibility they should take very seriously, as whenever we involve horses in sport we bear a heavy burden of responsibility for their protection and wellbeing. We would prefer that riders used other methods of training than extreme flexion. All riders – and especially those in competition - should be aware that they are setting an example for the riders of the future.

We would also like to reiterate that our chief executive Roly was misquoted in this article which appeared in The Observer – see the correction by following the below link (bottom of article). We would appreciate our supporters correcting people wherever they mention this article, as although a retraction was made we cannot let everyone know without your help – http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/jan/03/olympics-row-over-horse-cruelty

To clarify the ‘blue tongue’ element of this retraction, we believe that the blue tongue was not due to Rollkur but may have been due to the inadvertent slip of the horse’s tongue between bits, which the rider appeared to correct once he realised it had happened. At the time we released this statement in response to the understandable anger of our supporters after we were misquoted:

“World Horse Welfare does not believe that Rollkur is a "valuable training method". Our comment was that there are many people within the equestrian world who feel that Rollkur is a valuable training method, although clearly there are many people who take the contrary view. We also stressed that Rollkur, like any training method, can cause great harm if it is misused.”

A lot of you have posted comments and queries about this subject and though we might not be able to get back to you individually we do appreciate everyone taking the time to show their support for horses.

Thank you

 

[KevinA27]

I shall be supporting this, but do I have to wear pink !

 

[Mondy]

I'd like to buy at least 4.

And I have links and can expand our market to Denmark...

 

[LittleWildOne]

Maybe this might help?

First pony is just overbent:

But this horse is being ridden using Rollkur:

Can you see a difference now?

ElphabaFae, could I copy your pics to share on facebook please ?
I've shared one of joanne's youtube videos, with a bit of an explanation between flexing a horse and using Rollkur.
I'll happily post a link to the Polo shirts and hoodies if there's one available
M_G, I've sent you a PM....COUNT ME IN !

 

[ElphabaFae]

ElphabaFae, could I copy your pics to share on facebook please ?

Yes of course

 

[Pale Rider]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5oh4cjkLZk&feature=youtube_gdata_player