humblepie
Well-Known Member
Thanks for posting all the info, it is very interesting. Over hear even if it a really hot summer day, lead rein handlers still wear a suit - don't think I have ever seen a summer dress.
For those curious about USA "big" shows
- Thread starter BunnyDog
- Start date
j1ffy
Well-Known Member
For comparison, here's the prize list for the Royal Windsor Horse Show last year, which would probably be an equivalent show over here: https://rwhs.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/RWHS-National-Schedule-23-04-21-v2-1.pdf
The Grand Prix appears to have an exceptional prize pot: https://rwhs.co.uk/record-breaking-year-chi-royal-windsor-horse-show/ (from 2019)
IrishMilo
Well-Known Member
@BunnyDog - do people ever make back the enormous amount of money they spend on these horses through prize money?
I know it's been said before but I just can't believe how much money people in the US will spend on a fairly bog standard horse. Assuming this one is at the upper end of the guide price (200k) https://bigeq.com/horse/listing/cameron-canadian-warmblood-hunter-32428/, and I appreciate he looks a pretty solid hunter (clean lead changes, consistent etc.) but what makes him so valuable? Most horses can step over 3ft and learn a clean change!
I know it's been said before but I just can't believe how much money people in the US will spend on a fairly bog standard horse. Assuming this one is at the upper end of the guide price (200k) https://bigeq.com/horse/listing/cameron-canadian-warmblood-hunter-32428/, and I appreciate he looks a pretty solid hunter (clean lead changes, consistent etc.) but what makes him so valuable? Most horses can step over 3ft and learn a clean change!
CanteringCarrot
Well-Known Member
No, no they cannot. These horses are machines. They don't flick an ear or bat an eye wrong. A good American hunter horse has to be relatively easy to ride or atleast it has to look easy and be absolutely flawless. The horse must have impeccable form over fences and just the right canter, maintaining an even and IMO somewhat slow pace throughout. It's not just a horse that can step over 3ft and learn a clean change. It's much more than that.
Sure it's definitely gotten a bit carried away and prices are a bit ridiculous, but it's also become a status thing too.
sbloom
Well-Known Member
Because they're push button and jump in a certain style and flow, more so in H/J than other disciplines.
clinkerbuilt
Well-Known Member
Is his back leg very straight or am I not appreciating his type?
IrishMilo
Well-Known Member
Nope, his confo is horrible.
IrishMilo
Well-Known Member
I was being fairly facetious. I know it's more complicated that that. My point was why is a horse like that worth 200k over there whereas it would be worth a fraction of that over here.
CanteringCarrot
Well-Known Member
Ah, ok, I did not pick up on that.
The H/J world in the USA is...a bit extra and I'll never fully comprehend it!
ester
Not slacking multitasking
Yeah leg straps are garters instead of joddy clips
what gets me is how ‘ordinary’ the LR ponies look
what gets me is how ‘ordinary’ the LR ponies look
humblepie
Well-Known Member
Royal Windsor is seriously expensive to compete at - the entry fee for the showing class is normally the same as first prize and last year the entries were about £100 for a showing class. You can enter the same classes including qualifiers at other shows for a fraction of the price but the classes were still huge as it is Windsor and the prestige of the show and doing well there sells itself.
All the horses I clicked on in the adverts were enormous - I love the King Le Bron at 18.1.
All the horses I clicked on in the adverts were enormous - I love the King Le Bron at 18.1.
greenbean10
Well-Known Member
I am just as baffled and always have been by the market in America.
To me these hunter horses just look like attractive but dull horses that canter very slowly with their nose practically on the floor jumping tiny jumps while the rider sits and looks pretty! It sounds awful but a lot of them look a little dead behind the eyes to me. Maybe I'm just used to the carnage of BS shows.
jnb
Well-Known Member
Tails and a standing martingale to jump? If it needs a standing martingale how is it worth $20k
Also what's with the saddle up the horse's neck??
Also what's with the saddle up the horse's neck??
druid
Well-Known Member
Em, do you know what the court case was? I'd be interested. Needle stick injury?
I speak as a vet licensed in multiple states in USA - I worked at a well known equine clinic. The things I could treat or dispense there vs Europe is mind boggling.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
Standing Martingales are obligatory
BunnyDog
Well-Known Member
I didn't recall and I did put up a post on the Chronicle forums/Hunter Jumper last night to see if anyone else could recall. 200+ views, not 1 answer or post. So sadly I am at a loss.
I am going to email USEF and ask today. Won't hurt and worth the ask.
Em
BunnyDog
Well-Known Member
Yep.... Jodphur garters.
https://www.tackoftheday.com/romfh-...gOmmmgW4h_6w8YZjfab2eZBmFOpYvGKhoC0_gQAvD_BwE
Em
https://www.tackoftheday.com/romfh-...gOmmmgW4h_6w8YZjfab2eZBmFOpYvGKhoC0_gQAvD_BwE
Em
jnb
Well-Known Member
Anyone know why? I was told at Pony Club 10000 years ago (or feels like it) never to jump in one as, correctly fitted, they restrict the neck movement too much for a horse to safely jump anything?
BunnyDog
Well-Known Member
Ok some answers/thoughts.
First and foremost I don't ride hunters as it's a very exacting discipline that I first started in and never took to. It may look easy, it is not. Beyond that the way people win and who wins are VERY political. What horse wins, political. And the overall way that the discipline runs at the top is not a kettle of fish that I would like to jump into.
A horse sold by the biggest names in the sport will tend to keep winning or at least placing even when no longer ridden to the level of the ride the pro who had it gave it. That to me sucks. It's supposed to be about the best horse in the class. What it is, is the best connected horse in the class. It would be challenging for me to walk in and ride a foot perfect round on a lovely horse that no one had heard of and walk out with a ribbon.
This should explain why I adore jumpers. I was able to walk in as a no name in Kentucky in 2019 and win a 1.30 class on Cudo. Score one for the nobodies!!!
Re: Standing Martingales. In the hunters in the USA they've become an unofficial required piece of tack. There are some who compete without and for sure you're allowed to, but it's just not done. As for restricting the jump, a properly set up standing should allow the rider to hold the leather up into the throat latch when standing on the ground to ensure that it won't affect the horse's ability to use it's neck. But as to the "Why"..... sheep. herd animals. Afraid to be different.
Tail coats are used here in classics and hunter derbies. Trainers and tack shops combined a way to get the clients to pay even more money.
Re: the chestnut for sale. I actually hate to say this but, during the winter, with that trainer/connections the $200k price is a low price. If that horse was a hand taller and in Florida winning, he'd be closer to $400k. Also for the record, the more "Chrome" the higher the price. I heard one trainer joke it adds $45k a leg. $55k for a blaze.
@ester Not sure why they wouldn't look ordinary? I mean a pony is a pony and even the nicest ones gleam in the ring with their minimum 50 braids, but can still roll in the mud like no one's business. (Braiders btw cost $120 and up per mane per day at Devon unless you have a rare barn that allows their people to braid themselves. Most do not anymore for fear it would make the barn look slovenly. Don't get me started on that one)
As to making the money back, I mean it depends on who and how the horse was purchased. Many are purchased by LLC's and are then an asset with tax write off abilities. These are very useful when people in the household make a lot of money because it allows you to deduct for a big amount of losses in our tax returns. So in a way the horse being a losing effort is a positive. Plus you have to understand the future values.
Take for example a case i just went through. I had a lark of an idea to lease a fit and going horse to show in Feb and March and get myself fit again while Cudo is legging up from his winter break. So I asked a girl I knew with a horse for sale if she would consider a short term lease. She would... but when we did the math it worked out to $20k for 2 months. Which was WAY too much for my world. And that didn't include having to board him at a facility that she approved of (aka not my rented farm but one with an indoor and private turn out) The equation is simply a year lease is 50% the value of the sale price. So then breaking up that into months divide by 12. That horse was priced at $120k. So the horses have a lot of value for future leasing etc. Show leases for Florida and the winter can run well into the high 5's and mid 6 figures. So some horses it is possible to get some money back.
I have had the thought to lease Cudo to lower level jumper riders when he is done doing high stuff with me before he retires. But I would have a mountain of stipulations.
Em
First and foremost I don't ride hunters as it's a very exacting discipline that I first started in and never took to. It may look easy, it is not. Beyond that the way people win and who wins are VERY political. What horse wins, political. And the overall way that the discipline runs at the top is not a kettle of fish that I would like to jump into.
A horse sold by the biggest names in the sport will tend to keep winning or at least placing even when no longer ridden to the level of the ride the pro who had it gave it. That to me sucks. It's supposed to be about the best horse in the class. What it is, is the best connected horse in the class. It would be challenging for me to walk in and ride a foot perfect round on a lovely horse that no one had heard of and walk out with a ribbon.
This should explain why I adore jumpers. I was able to walk in as a no name in Kentucky in 2019 and win a 1.30 class on Cudo. Score one for the nobodies!!!
Re: Standing Martingales. In the hunters in the USA they've become an unofficial required piece of tack. There are some who compete without and for sure you're allowed to, but it's just not done. As for restricting the jump, a properly set up standing should allow the rider to hold the leather up into the throat latch when standing on the ground to ensure that it won't affect the horse's ability to use it's neck. But as to the "Why"..... sheep. herd animals. Afraid to be different.
Tail coats are used here in classics and hunter derbies. Trainers and tack shops combined a way to get the clients to pay even more money.
Re: the chestnut for sale. I actually hate to say this but, during the winter, with that trainer/connections the $200k price is a low price. If that horse was a hand taller and in Florida winning, he'd be closer to $400k. Also for the record, the more "Chrome" the higher the price. I heard one trainer joke it adds $45k a leg. $55k for a blaze.
@ester Not sure why they wouldn't look ordinary? I mean a pony is a pony and even the nicest ones gleam in the ring with their minimum 50 braids, but can still roll in the mud like no one's business. (Braiders btw cost $120 and up per mane per day at Devon unless you have a rare barn that allows their people to braid themselves. Most do not anymore for fear it would make the barn look slovenly. Don't get me started on that one)
As to making the money back, I mean it depends on who and how the horse was purchased. Many are purchased by LLC's and are then an asset with tax write off abilities. These are very useful when people in the household make a lot of money because it allows you to deduct for a big amount of losses in our tax returns. So in a way the horse being a losing effort is a positive. Plus you have to understand the future values.
Take for example a case i just went through. I had a lark of an idea to lease a fit and going horse to show in Feb and March and get myself fit again while Cudo is legging up from his winter break. So I asked a girl I knew with a horse for sale if she would consider a short term lease. She would... but when we did the math it worked out to $20k for 2 months. Which was WAY too much for my world. And that didn't include having to board him at a facility that she approved of (aka not my rented farm but one with an indoor and private turn out) The equation is simply a year lease is 50% the value of the sale price. So then breaking up that into months divide by 12. That horse was priced at $120k. So the horses have a lot of value for future leasing etc. Show leases for Florida and the winter can run well into the high 5's and mid 6 figures. So some horses it is possible to get some money back.
I have had the thought to lease Cudo to lower level jumper riders when he is done doing high stuff with me before he retires. But I would have a mountain of stipulations.
Em
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
I now see why my OH was keen for us to sell one of mine to the US when there was an offer in the wings.
I was a bit of a fool! (not really, couldn't have done it
sentimental old bat that i am).
it's a different world.
I was a bit of a fool! (not really, couldn't have done it
sentimental old bat that i am).it's a different world.
BunnyDog
Well-Known Member
@jnb sorry didn't get to answer this part of your question, the currenttrend with saddle pabs is that for the fitted ones in hunters, you want to be able to see the edge of the pads beyond where the saddle ends. So it should look like this:
https://ecogold.ca/product/forward-flap-hunter-pad-secure-860/
(3rd pic in case the link doesn't pop it up)
I think it's important to remember that the stuff that you all perceive with dislike in US shows and horse care is NOT happening to the majority of USA horses.
Most people have a vet to take care of all the care for their animals and use them regularly.
Much of the population of US riders have a trainer of some type and get guidance on elements of care outside of their purview when needed.
Most do NOT show at the ultra exclusive level. Most do not show weekly or even monthly with the heightened costs of life during Covid. The price of hay and grain has risen so much that I know many barns are downgrading their showing plans for their clients because of the costs. Not to mention the increase in gas prices. (Which I know you all pay a fortune for Petrol so I won't complain )
There are a bunch of people that can compete at the top levels, but not a huge part of our American Equestrian population.
Em
https://ecogold.ca/product/forward-flap-hunter-pad-secure-860/
(3rd pic in case the link doesn't pop it up)
I now see why my OH was keen for us to sell one of mine to the US when there was an offer in the wings.
I was a bit of a fool! (not really, couldn't have done it
it's a different world.
I think it's important to remember that the stuff that you all perceive with dislike in US shows and horse care is NOT happening to the majority of USA horses.
Most people have a vet to take care of all the care for their animals and use them regularly.
Much of the population of US riders have a trainer of some type and get guidance on elements of care outside of their purview when needed.
Most do NOT show at the ultra exclusive level. Most do not show weekly or even monthly with the heightened costs of life during Covid. The price of hay and grain has risen so much that I know many barns are downgrading their showing plans for their clients because of the costs. Not to mention the increase in gas prices. (Which I know you all pay a fortune for Petrol so I won't complain
)There are a bunch of people that can compete at the top levels, but not a huge part of our American Equestrian population.
Em
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
I didn't mean it in a disparaging way. more that i couldn't have parted with her, she didn't get sold to anyone!
ester
Not slacking multitasking
Ordinary in that they are quite different to ours, in the way that our LR tend to be over done and most definitely in an outline. Your LR for a ££ class mostly look like they’re out for amble in comparison.
BunnyDog
Well-Known Member
Since I am unfamiliar with your lead rein classes can you explain a bit more so I can understand?
Here these are very much just an amble around the ring. So much so that I generally feel bad that they give ribbons in these classes. Given some heroics I have witnessed just to keep the child from hopping off and running about, I think the parents (and not so much always the kids) deserve a single participation ribbon for surviving.
Em
BunnyDog
Well-Known Member
No no I get that. Just pointing out that selling to the USA, for those that don't mind parting with their horses, is not such a risk of horrific treatment and showing up in bad condition.
Em
ester
Not slacking multitasking
Here they are proper little show ponies, pointy toes and all
we also have lead rein hunter type which are chunkier
And lead rein mountain and moorland but all would be expected to go correctly (and no definitely not rear!)
we also have lead rein hunter type which are chunkier
And lead rein mountain and moorland but all would be expected to go correctly (and no definitely not rear!)
humblepie
Well-Known Member
The "big show" lead rein show ponies here are like little mini thoroughbreds - there is one I have come across a few times who is the splitting image of my ex racehorse, just a lot shorter!
LEC
Opinions are like bum holes, everyone has one.
Hours in side reins in fact many barely come out of them. Ridden by small adults or older children as well.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
yeah hence my 'over done' comment.