For those who like a puzzle

[Boulty]

Have been filming the Fuzzball again today as looks like joint injections in hocks & front coffins can go ahead as insurance appear to have accepted claim & I wanted some “on bute” footage to compare to post joint injection as subjectively he is moving more easily and appears less lame on the bute (my physio actually thinks he looks better on the bute than the post nerve block video the vets sent but if her & my trimmer are correct in that there’s something else going on that we just haven’t found yet that would make sense). I also think from his wear pattern that his breakover has shifted a bit more centrally than it was (still in a diagonal line with the outside edge being more worn but maybe a tad straighter line than it was? Haven’t taken photos cos it started to rain!)

Anyhow this then led to me taking stills to compare landings to how they were before, whether he’s plaiting to the same degree, how well he’s tracking up on the RH… and then led me to notice that his RF is so so much more wonky than the LF at all times. As I said we’re Xraying the neck ( attempting to get views to check for ECVM but jury still out on if my vet will take them or if I’ll need to go elsewhere for that… awkward as vet thinks we’ve all gone mad!)

Anyhow pics with human in equidry are pre-bute (ie when was definitely lame on all 4 legs), pics on gravel are at vets after nerve blocks and pics on concrete with no human are today (yes I know the actual videos would be helpful but 2 sets have other people walking / trotting up that I don’t have permission to share openly)

Walk













Trot

 

[Boulty]

Continued






Not got a good still of RF landing from vet video


From behind








My own random thought is that since this latest issue started it’s been noted that he’s not tracking up on the RH / that RH is tracking to outside of the RF and we’ve been blaming the hocks buuuut looking at the extremely dodgy things the RF is doing how could the RH ever possibly track up with that?

 

[Rough and tumble]

Hard to tell just from the photos and not a video what did vets think ? However he does look on the rather large size so this will not help his joints at all , it may be the angle of the photos so apologise in advance if this is not the case just a observation

 

[Sandstone1]

You need a video to see lameness but he looks very overweight.

 

[Boulty]

It’s not the lameness I’m musing over more the front foot landing (especially on the right) and the angle the whole right foreleg from remains at whilst in motion (basically waiting for some of the geeky people)

Vids not poss as they contain other people that I don’t have permission to post publicly. (& the one that contains me is the one I’m least interested in plus lighting on it is shocking due to being taken in pissing rain)

Yep he’s fat. We know he’s fat. He’s on a grass free track system with all hay small netted / double netted. If he was on grass he’d be twice as fat. If he was in work he’d be less fat (it is the one and only way he ever loses weight) but alas he’s not sound enough to work & so he remains fat. (He has kissing spines so he’s not allowed to swim either before anyone suggests it. He’s done treadmill before when he was sounder than is currently but again he couldn’t do the intensity / water depth / speed required for significant weight loss due to having to not compromise his back and then I was advised it was actively causing undesirable movement patterns despite being careful so had to stop)

 

[Sandstone1]

I know its very hard to keep their weight down.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

He looks to land on the outside of both front hooves, which I would be suspicious of. Farrier/vet need to decide whether the problem is the foot balance or the leg confo and think about if something can be adjusted. Possibly not.
I bought a Welsh X TB 4 yr old with pigeon toes. Farrier said it was too late to affect the leg confo through trimming, so we had to let her continue as she was. Farrier was great though and she was sound for many years.

 

[ycbm]

Pics on concrete are probably the best, but he has one heck of a lateral landing on the outside of the right front in particular. Is there any clinical explanation for that?

.

 

[Boulty]

Pics on concrete are probably the best, but he has one heck of a lateral landing on the outside of the right front in particular. Is there any clinical explanation for that?

.

Well that there is the question… he’s never had the best of landings but it’s gotten worse recently.

He’s got fairly extensive sidebone in both fronts so when landing was mildly lateral but he was otherwise moving relatively straight we assumed he landed that way because of the sidebone maybe making a more correct landing uncomfortable. Vet was unconcerned by sidebone when discovered & remains unconcerned. (Other professionals involved are slightly mystified by it given the next to zero work horse has done)

Then when the kissing spine was diagnosed we expected that if we made his back more comfortable then maybe he’d straighten up a bit but that never came to pass (although when I was doing the original rehab for that I’m pretty sure he was tracking up a lot more normally as I spent a lot of hours longreining him / staring at his arse!)

He’s also recently been diagnosed with hock arthritis behind and is lame in front which vet thinks blocks to the feet (but as you can see when either on bute or with nerve blocks on board he still lands like that so pretty sure there’s another issue driving this)

In theory we COULD MRI but nobody is currently thinking that’s best use of funds / that it would flag anything that would lead to a change of approach.

I guess what I’m finding interesting / a bit odd is how twisted the rest of that leg stays after he’s landed on it, which the LF doesn’t seem to do / not to anywhere near the same degree.

This is all part of why my trimmer and physio want me to get neck Xrays done (& why physio is pushing for ECVM views) as they both strongly feel that whilst the foot balance isn’t where we’d like it due to how he wears them there’s something elsewhere in his body causing this / that the wear pattern and foot balance are the result of something else going on rather than the cause of the problem

As for vet… can’t get them to acknowledge that this is a problem (& so insurance won’t fund my fishing trip unless I find something)

 

[nutjob]

The lateral landing does look pronounced but I would question whether this is a symptom of ecvm, especially if he passes all the neurological tests. I had one who did this (not as noticeable as yours) and he turned out to have a sdft injury which was picked up on mri, the injury was slightly above the hoof but it blocked to the hoof and was originally diagnosed as navicular syndrome. There are a couple of fb groups for wobblers / ecvm where you can take a look at some of the videos of other peoples horses or post one of your own for comments, someone might recognise this as a symptom they've seen before.

When I was deciding what to do with my wobbler I considered taking him to Rainbow equine as they are experts in this field, they may be able to give you an opinion based on his clinical history, results and current videos whether the neck is worth investigating.

 

[Boulty]

Will admit I am on one of the FB groups but other than fishing for vet suggestions I’ve not posted much.

Trimmer has had 2 horses he was involved with that moved / started to move in a similar manner that were found to have what he thinks was ECVM (possibly before that label was put on it?) or something similar. That’s what started me down that rabbit hole. Physio also thinks he has some very weird compensatory patterns that he either won’t let her touch / her attempting to correct some of that coincided with him getting a lot worse.

He also inconsistently stumbles, has been down on his knees when he ought to have easily been able to save himself, struggles walking downhill & has never been able to maintain canter around a corner/ has always massively massively struggled with it in general. He also intermittently walks with a weird very low head carriage. (Like literally nose nearly brushing the ground) Oh & he struggles to coordinate himself backing up.

I’ve had a previous really bad experience at Rainbow involving one of the directors so have been avoiding the place. Was a different director to the one I think you’re referring to and perhaps if I stipulate I want no contact at all with the person in question & that I want to watch to make sure my horse isn’t harshly treated in any way it may be possible… (the issue would be getting a short notice day off work as they’re losing patience with me a bit over this as technically less than 4 weeks is against policy and I’ve had 2 or 3 now for vet appointments)

Anyway is now off in for joint injections & whatever bits of his neck my normal vets can manage to X-ray on Thurs so should know a bit more then & hopefully feet being reassessed by trimmer a few weeks after that.

 

[nutjob]

He also inconsistently stumbles, has been down on his knees when he ought to have easily been able to save himself, struggles walking downhill & has never been able to maintain canter around a corner/ has always massively massively struggled with it in general. He also intermittently walks with a weird very low head carriage. (Like literally nose nearly brushing the ground) Oh & he struggles to coordinate himself backing up.

I'd also be having neck xrays in this case, these symptoms do sound like a neck issue .

Thanks for sharing your experience at Rainbow, I didn't take mine in the end, I was recommended to go there for a ct myelogram following abnormal xray findings and to get an expert opinion on the treatment options. Unfortunately, mine doesn't travel well and it's quite far, so with this in mind I thought I could finish up £1000's down and be in no better position. I'm so sorry your horse wasn't treated with the consideration he deserved, it's totally unnecessary, I'd be livid and would also avoid the place.

Hopefully you will get some answers on Thursday, it's so worrying.

 

[Boulty]

I'd also be having neck xrays in this case, these symptoms do sound like a neck issue .

Thanks for sharing your experience at Rainbow, I didn't take mine in the end, I was recommended to go there for a ct myelogram following abnormal xray findings and to get an expert opinion on the treatment options. Unfortunately, mine doesn't travel well and it's quite far, so with this in mind I thought I could finish up £1000's down and be in no better position. I'm so sorry your horse wasn't treated with the consideration he deserved, it's totally unnecessary, I'd be livid and would also avoid the place.

Hopefully you will get some answers on Thursday, it's so worrying.

Yeah keeping my fingers crossed for… I’m not sure what in all honesty. At least if we find something I’ve got an answer but obviously nothing we could potentially find is particularly good news

Horse in question that I had at the time was sensitive anyway in that it only took 1 bad experience to hate something until the end of time but it would have been nice if they hadn’t tried to start removing his shoes for MRI whilst they were concurrently placing an IV in his neck (I mean who DOES that?!) with about 5 or 6 people pinning him into a corner leading to him rearing up after I had specifically told them he wasn’t good for shoe removal & could they please sedate him FIRST. (I witnessed this by accident because I left something in reception and walked back past). Said horse was horrendous for anything IV until the day he died having previously been ok and was just generally worse for anything vet related that he’d previously been ok with. Vet was also very dismissive of things that horse had actually been referred to him for (that it turned out years down the line were a very valid concern) and even when focusing on what he believed the problem to be missed things that were potentially relevant to that issue whilst hyper focusing on others (that further down the line turned out to be mostly irrelevant) and did not present me with a balanced view of all the options available. (There was also the fun of them leading me to believe they’d put his shoes back on afterwards as they had an on site farrier & then declining to do so leading to a lot of extra stress and some very frantic phonecalls!)

 

[Boulty]

Slight update is that joint injections were done last Thurs.

Not sure that the hock ones have worked all that well as currently very snatchy with hind feet and most definitely not sound behind in trot / canter (worse than pre injection) as of a few days ago. (I do not ask him to do these things but obviously can’t control what stupidity he chooses to involve himself in) Still on Bute but only 1/2 daily. Going to have a better look tomorrow when I have more time but don’t think I’ll have anyone else to help me so think this shall mainly be achieved by me walking / jogging backwards! The alpha2 info seems to reckon improvement noticeable from a few days post injection but guessing it will take a few weeks to see full effect (at least I hope so because if this is it then he looked sounder than this behind on the slightly higher Bute dose)

No worse / perhaps marginally better looking in front in terms of general comfort but not attempted to assess landing


As for neck X-rays sufficient views of C6 not obtained in opinion of research contact & only 1 view with C7 in it so need to try to get them redone otherwise it was rather pointless doing them in first place if incomplete. (& also physio will not treat him again without being satisfied this has been checked properly)

It would appear that Rainbow beckons as they did actually know what I was asking for and that probably isn’t going to be the case anywhere else within sensible driving distance & I just really really need someone who “gets” what I want & why. Just going to have to suck it up & hope for a more positive experience (& politely request a different vet)

Going to potentially be a bit of logistical fungetting there though as I’m not convinced a full referral letter shall be possible as obviously current vet not the main driver behind wanting to rule this out & unsure they’ll take him without (currently exploring the “ask for a foot MRI & see if they’ll do it whilst there” route as tbh if what we’re currently trying doesn’t work then that was a possible next step anyway… not necessarily one I was mega keen to do due to cost but probably more convenient to do before I sell the lorry if I’m thinking clearly) and this is without seeing if work will grant me another day off.

We’ve also discussed doing the version of the EMS test where they give him glucose with a possible view to trialling drugs if indicative of EMS as there really is no hope in hell of getting any weight off him in the near future as he’s already on a grass free track with teeny holes nets, fully clipped & either naked or in a rainsheet & the piddling amount of exercise he may or may not be able to do is not going to cut it.

 

[nutjob]

If you do decide to go to rainbow, then I would think you should request the specific vet who worked / trained in the US and is an expert in wobblers. Hopefully this is not the person you had a problem with the last time. Otherwise if you tag it on to an mri you could get a different vet which doesn't give you the maximum benefit.

Also, if he turned out to have an abnormality in the neck would there be any benefit to having an mri? I just paid £1.8k for one foot and the fetlock (not my wobbler horse) I wasn't insured so it was a big expense, obviously if your insurance has agreed to cover it then it's a different situation.

So annoying that your vet didn't take enough images when you'd specifically requested it. Mine charges quite a large up front fee for set up and then each image is not too costly so it's better value to get everything in one go. Even it they can't evaluate them you have the images to forward on for review elsewhere.

Good luck with him, it's so demoralising when you don't have a clear answer and don't know what to do for the best.

 

[pistolpete]

What does he weigh now? I really feel for you. It’s been a lot less fun for you than it should have been getting a ‘blank canvas’!

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I have no experience of using Rainbow but plenty of saying exactly which vet I do, or do NOT want to treat my animal. I have been known to write those instructions on the consent form.
Then no-one can say that the message wasn't passed on, or it was forgotten etc. As one vet once said to me 'You are paying the bill, you can say how the money is spent'.

 

[Boulty]

If you do decide to go to rainbow, then I would think you should request the specific vet who worked / trained in the US and is an expert in wobblers. Hopefully this is not the person you had a problem with the last time. Otherwise if you tag it on to an mri you could get a different vet which doesn't give you the maximum benefit.

Also, if he turned out to have an abnormality in the neck would there be any benefit to having an mri? I just paid £1.8k for one foot and the fetlock (not my wobbler horse) I wasn't insured so it was a big expense, obviously if your insurance has agreed to cover it then it's a different situation.

So annoying that your vet didn't take enough images when you'd specifically requested it. Mine charges quite a large up front fee for set up and then each image is not too costly so it's better value to get everything in one go. Even it they can't evaluate them you have the images to forward on for review elsewhere.

Good luck with him, it's so demoralising when you don't have a clear answer and don't know what to do for the best.

Thanks for the thoughts.

When my vets have sent everything over (hopefully start of next week) then going to have another chat with Rainbow… I THINK the guy I probably need for the neck X-rays is Jonathan (& he is not the vet I had the bad experience with) but need to discuss further when all ducks in a row. I’m totally ok with a different vet doing the MRI if that works better for them.

Insurance should fund MRI and have funded similar on a previous horse in the past (although I did perhaps ought to run it past them next week they have approved & paid for other things already for this issue). I’ve been given a rough guess of £1.8k for both feet. It shall blow a hole in funds (& if I weren’t going somewhere with an MRI for the X-rays it wouldn’t necessarily be what I’d be doing right now) but realistically the only other thing I might use it for is using leftover alpha 2 or arthramid for more coffin joint injections which I’d probably only do once more before claim expires anyway (which I think I’d be left with just about enough for)

The X-rays I’m funding myself (unless we find something clinically significant) as they’re classing it as us screening for our own interest

I guess my thinking is that if we DON’T find anything in the neck then it’s covering all bases ( although yeah I’ll probably ask if they can please X-ray first & only proceed with MRI if we don’t find anything awful)

 

[Boulty]

What does he weigh now? I really feel for you. It’s been a lot less fun for you than it should have been getting a ‘blank canvas’!

Oh about 612kg atm on weighbridge… this is the exact same as he weighed in September so he has lost 0kg over winter (probably because although there’s less of a Spring excess on the track there’s also no Winter scarcity)

 

[pistolpete]

Oh about 612kg atm on weighbridge… this is the exact same as he weighed in September so he has lost 0kg over winter (probably because although there’s less of a Spring excess on the track there’s also no Winter scarcity)

Yes that can be an issue with Highlands. They really are built for hardship not caring owners. He’s tall though. Q is only 13.2 and 550. Maybe 612 is bearable.

 

[Sandstone1]

I hope you get some answers. I know you are aware he is over weight but any lameness issue he has would most likely be improved a lot by getting some weight off him. If hes not lost over winter its a concern going in to Spring/summer. I know its very hard to control their weight but it would possibly really help him in the long run.
Can he be stabled part time? Wear a Muzzle? Grass free area?
Anyway hope you get to the bottom of his problems.

 

[JFTDWS]

Mine are both 470-480kg fit (at 14,1). Dae is probably 500kg now, Fergus is closer to his fit weight. So at 600kg, I feel like there's a lot of weight to go there. And that can't be helping any of the physical issues.

I'm not saying that to be a knob - getting weight off a horse not in work is really, really hard, and you're doing a lot to try to tackle it by having him grass free and clipped out. Is the hay is ad lib (despite being double netted etc)? If it's limited in quantity, some kind of EMS drug seems like a reasonable thing to explore. Your options are pretty limited because, as we know, he's not the easiest to manage in terms of fencing either.

I hope you find some answers in the next round of diagnostics, anyway.

 

[Boulty]

I hope you get some answers. I know you are aware he is over weight but any lameness issue he has would most likely be improved a lot by getting some weight off him. If hes not lost over winter its a concern going in to Spring/summer. I know its very hard to control their weight but it would possibly really help him in the long run.
Can he be stabled part time? Wear a Muzzle? Grass free area?
Anyway hope you get to the bottom of his problems.

He lives full time on a grass free track system. Not a massive amount more can be done with him management wise without compromising QOL. (Well tbf if you do anything he doesn’t like he trashes fences, removes & destroys any muzzle design he deems too restrictive & still eats too much through the ones he WILL tolerate)

 

[Sandstone1]

He lives full time on a grass free track system. Not a massive amount more can be done with him management wise without compromising QOL. (Well tbf if you do anything he doesn’t like he trashes fences, removes & destroys any muzzle design he deems too restrictive & still eats too much through the ones he WILL tolerate)

I know it can be a nightmare. They seem to get fat on fresh air. One of mine had metformin to help weight loss but I am not sure if that still used. Good Luck anyway.

 

[Boulty]

Mine are both 470-480kg fit (at 14,1). Dae is probably 500kg now, Fergus is closer to his fit weight. So at 600kg, I feel like there's a lot of weight to go there. And that can't be helping any of the physical issues.

I'm not saying that to be a knob - getting weight off a horse not in work is really, really hard, and you're doing a lot to try to tackle it by having him grass free and clipped out. Is the hay is ad lib (despite being double netted etc)? If it's limited in quantity, some kind of EMS drug seems like a reasonable thing to explore. Your options are pretty limited because, as we know, he's not the easiest to manage in terms of fencing either.

I hope you find some answers in the next round of diagnostics, anyway.

Oh completely agree that in an ideal world I’d like him to weigh about 500kg (but in the real world I’d settle for 550 as he is a chunky, heavier type anyway and is about 14.2-14.3 and I don’t think 500 would happen without serious, hard work that I know he won’t stand up to)

There’s a limited no of nets that go out once a day. Some of the individual nets run out but there’s never a point where every single net is empty.

There’s a few poorer doers and some more “normal” types plus 4 or 5 other good doers so obviously track owner has to strike a balance (if they were ALL good doers I’d personally want to double net ALL the hay).

In an ideal world the boxes the nets go in would be slightly more evenly spread / with larger distances between but ground conditions, no of mud mats available etc realistically place limitations on that. (But it’s my only local option unless someone wants to rent me some land)

 

[JFTDWS]

Oh completely agree that in an ideal world I’d like him to weigh about 500kg (but in the real world I’d settle for 550 as he is a chunky, heavier type anyway and is about 14.2-14.3 and I don’t think 500 would happen without serious, hard work that I know he won’t stand up to)

There’s a limited no of nets that go out once a day. Some of the individual nets run out but there’s never a point where every single net is empty.

There’s a few poorer doers and some more “normal” types plus 4 or 5 other good doers so obviously track owner has to strike a balance (if they were ALL good doers I’d personally want to double net ALL the hay).

In an ideal world the boxes the nets go in would be slightly more evenly spread / with larger distances between but ground conditions, no of mud mats available etc realistically place limitations on that. (But it’s my only local option unless someone wants to rent me some land)

I thought that would be the case, re the nets. It's not something solvable, really. You'd either need a track of only those on strict weight loss diet, or your own land to manage. I'm a big fan of feeding straw, but on a multi-horse/owner track you'd never be able to make that work.

The combination of his weight, soundness issues and attitude to fencing make it really hard for you.

 

[SEL]

If you get really stuck like me (out of work good doer from an old meat breed so genetically designed for blubber) then the new weight loss drugs are worth a shot

I'm having jabs and her bloods taken to check liver / Kidney function in 10 days and if they're OK she'll be drugged along with muzzle. I run a grass track but it's still too much for her. I was hoping for another 30kg off her before Spring but it's been too warm this winter.

 

[HopOnTrot]

I’m using Invokana with my mare, trialling a dose every other day as she’s currently the right weight/body score but still “feeling the sugar”

Could it be low grade laminitis that’s affecting the front feet?

 

[pistolpete]

I really do feel your pain two poor doers in with my elephant. Both going off to better grazing temporarily which means even more grass for my already too fat retired highland!

 

[HopOnTrot]

Is there an option to bring him off the track? I know stabling isn't ideal but you could stable with a soaked double bagged net and turn out on the track for a bit, you could consider muzzling, I know my mare can still use a haynet with a muzzle on, it just takes longer!