Four instructors, four different canter aids, aids to turn... why?

[maya2008]

Now I know there's a French school of thought/training for dressage and a German school. No problem with that. But in the past, every instructor I met used the same basic aids, but some with different approaches depending on the school of thought they followed or whether they were dressage/SJ trained. I had ten years out to have children, and now every instructor I meet has different actual aids for things. I mean, why? Surely there has to be some commonality so you can actually buy a horse and it understands what the new owner means?

So.... you can turn by:
- using your inside rein and outside leg
- using your inside leg only(squeeze or stepping through the stirrup depending on instructor asked)
- using weight + inside leg + outside leg + inside rein
- using weight + inside leg + outside rein
- half halting before one of the above

Or canter by:
- pushing inside hip forwards
- rotating outside hip backwards and dropping it
- inside leg only
- outside leg back, aid from outside leg
- outside leg back, aid from inside leg
- seat aid, then outside leg back, aid from inside leg

Or make a downwards transition by:
- breathing out and closing hands
- leaning back and pulling on reins
- just pulling on the reins
- blocking seat aid, close legs, close hands
- squeeze with knees, close legs then hands.
half halt before one of the above

Now I sit on my recently backed youngster and she responds automatically to the same seat/weight aids that my 13 year old mare did at the same age. Instinct, no teaching required. Horses haven't changed, why are humans messing with the 'language'?

 

[milliepops]

All of that will depend on the skill of the rider, the training level of the horse and the knowledge of the instructor ime

None are particularly *wrong* in particular circumstances, but you're right that as horses and riders develop they tend to settle towards a more nuanced set of aids and away from the pulling and kicking blunt instruments. Not all instructors are equal though

 

[tallyho!]

Crikey I think I use any combination of those depending on which mare I ride and who is in season 🤣

 

[Auslander]

- pushing inside hip forwards
- rotating outside hip backwards and dropping it

I think I'd do myself a mischief if I tried doing that!

It depends on the rider and the horse - their levels of training, and also how the horse has been taught. I've ridden some who canter off an inside leg aid, some that canter when you take the outside leg back, and some that canter when you think canter.
My own (very highly trained) horse canters when he feels like it - it doesn't make any difference what aid you give him!

 

[nikkimariet]

Sounds over complicated.

It's a bit like leg yield; horse moves off a leg at the girth, shoulder first with bend away from the direction of the movement. BUT by doing so you automatically engage your seat/weight and open your leading hand to give the shoulder room, you just don't need the moons and stars aligned and for it to be the second Thursday of the month to complete the leg yield.

It's really hard to describe exactly what is required at times as most of it is intuition and learnt by experience and some of it comes down to preference. Ultimately, it's feel, and that's very hard to teach.

I don't ask for canter, HP or FC with the inside leg though, that's a firm rule for me. I have yet to see really good examples for the above off the inside leg.

 

[DabDab]

Most of those are describing the same overall set of aids, it's just the instructor has a different way/emphasis when describing the mechanics of it. E.g. putting inside hip forwards probably results in the same position as putting outside hip back.

The which leg do you use to ask for canter thing has always been different between different riders and in fact the same rider on different horses. I ask with inside leg, but without my outside leg in place and the seat aid to go with it most horses wouldn't have a scooby what I was on about.

 

[oldie48]

Having just got back from bootcamp (report to follow) I've come to the conclusion that it's all the preparation that I do before giving an aid that makes the difference between success and failure, a simple outside leg back is all that is required if Rose is in front of the leg, correctly flexed, not out through her shoulder, has a decent trot or walk, is straight, I don't tip forward/sit too far back, she's on the bit and using her back so she's moving forwards in self carriage etc etc. The aid is the easy bit! with Bisto I just used to think "canter" and we were off but he was often so tight in his back that I bounced around too much and he was heavy in the hand so he pulled me forward off my seat, however with good preparation I could get a lovely uphill canter again just by thinking it and perhaps a little nudge from the inside leg. Different aids for different horses.

 

[Mule]

Having just got back from bootcamp (report to follow) I've come to the conclusion that it's all the preparation that I do before giving an aid that makes the difference between success and failure, a simple outside leg back is all that is required if Rose is in front of the leg, correctly flexed, not out through her shoulder, has a decent trot or walk, is straight, I don't tip forward/sit too far back, she's on the bit and using her back so she's moving forwards in self carriage etc etc. The aid is the easy bit! with Bisto I just used to think "canter" and we were off but he was often so tight in his back that I bounced around too much and he was heavy in the hand so he pulled me forward off my seat, however with good preparation I could get a lovely uphill canter again just by thinking it and perhaps a little nudge from the inside leg. Different aids for different horses.

It's definitely the preparation for me too. I'd imagine for training a young horse it would be best to keep things simple, just so it doesn't get confused by lots of different aids.

 

[milliepops]

It's definitely the preparation for me too. I'd imagine for training a young horse it would be best to keep things simple, just so it doesn't get confused by lots of different aids.

simple, yes, but I would suggest that the rider should still use the correct aids otherwise the horse will have to re-learn everything at some point. The key is to keep it consistent as much as possible rather than keep changing things, I think.

Of the list in the OP, for the just-broken horse there is an element of somewhat crude aids because the horse is very much learning the ropes, but really for halting, just pulling on the reins +/- leaning back, for instance, would be doing that young horse a disservice, the rider should be teaching the more nuanced or subtle aids quite early on IMO even with the expectation that the horse won't get it to start with.

Same with turning - the just broken horse will probably need the direct instruction from the inside rein to make the instruction clear - turn your head this way and then follow it, but IMO it would be desirable to then include the outside rein etc aids asap so that you can get away from that before you end up with a horse that falls out of the shoulder & you have no way to address it

 

[DabDab]

I actually think a horse being reschooled is possibly more relevant for some of the more obvious, agricultural aids than a youngster. Generally if you're backing a youngster with dressagey type activities in mind then you do quite a lot of lateral work type principles from the ground and when first on board, plus because it's all new to them they are quite attentive and pick up different combinations of aids a bit quicker.

Whereas something like an ex racer can be quite blase about what you're doing up top and take a bit more metaphorical leading by the nose to start with. Same with a lot of riding school types.

 

[maya2008]

It was when I was bemoaning the joys of trying to teach correct transitions to a four year old whilst also leading a Shetland with child attached out hacking to a friend, and she said ‘why don’t you just push down on your stirrups to stop?’ that I decided to start this thread! I had already experienced ‘I like to do it this way’ from various instructors (for an older horse) and that was just...

I use weight aids on baby horses - they get it from day one because the response is innate. The reins and legs are simply backup, ready for more complicated stuff later. But on an established horse, I would expect to be taught a correct sequence of aids, which includes the prep work and half halting etc. Not half the story or using a different leg to canter, or...

And my son is already confused. He just needs one set of instructions he can follow! Turning needs to use the inside leg or you get motorbike turns, so just turning from the rein isn’t exactly safe (for example!).

 

[Theocat]

I started riding a new instructor's advanced horse, and she was trying to get me to ask for canter with my inside hip forward. Nothing doing. Eventually she told me just to ask as I normally would (a deliberate but passive outside leg, and a squeeze on the inside) and we had a perfect strike off every time. Whatever she and I were doing differently with our bodies, the horse was still able to interpret both as an instruction for the same thing.

 

[tallyho!]

It was when I was bemoaning the joys of trying to teach correct transitions to a four year old whilst also leading a Shetland with child attached out hacking to a friend, and she said ‘why don’t you just push down on your stirrups to stop?’ that I decided to start this thread! I had already experienced ‘I like to do it this way’ from various instructors (for an older horse) and that was just...

I use weight aids on baby horses - they get it from day one because the response is innate. The reins and legs are simply backup, ready for more complicated stuff later. But on an established horse, I would expect to be taught a correct sequence of aids, which includes the prep work and half halting etc. Not half the story or using a different leg to canter, or...

And my son is already confused. He just needs one set of instructions he can follow! Turning needs to use the inside leg or you get motorbike turns, so just turning from the rein isn’t exactly safe (for example!).

Does your son also learn at a school?

 

[maya2008]

Does your son also learn at a school?

Nope, private lessons! Instructor insists on using modified aids because he is a 6yo child, but pony needs not to motorbike so he has half a chance of turning it and getting round the corner towards the next jump! So I insist on inside leg when he is riding at home (which he does fine and works) but instructor does not ask for (says inside rein outside leg...). Instructor is otherwise great and has got my son to get a grip and ride rather than sit there, resulting in successful riding and jumping off-lead on naughty Shetland, so I am taking the rough with the smooth.

 

[milliepops]

Does the instructor suggest the same for an adult rider?
Asking as I know one locally that I fundamentally disagree with the way she teaches (and having ridden her horses I think they go in the same arse-backwards way 🙊)
So in her case it's not a problem of teaching novices or children, its actually the way she thinks you should ride 🤔

 

[J&S]

I think you are right, on turning it is inside leg to outside rein. Inside rein and outside leg will just get him pulling the pony round.

 

[DabDab]

Oh yes, I've seen people teach children like that before. When I asked about it with one person she said that it is just a control thing for kids that keep losing the pony out of its shoulder. The outside leg aid isn't really an aid (because by and large they're not strong enough), it's just a way of getting them to tense their muscles on the outside to put resistance on that side in place of being able to use their outside rein effectively.

Maybe they've just missed that your son has developed enough to start using his inside leg too now....?

 

[Boulty]

I also have been taught a ridiculous variety of aids for various things depending on who is doing the teaching & the emphasis they place on each. I sorely wish I'd found someone to teach me to ride properly from the seat to start with as that's what makes the most sense to me as well it's always in contact with the saddle anyway... may as well be doing something useful & productive with it or at least not have it be giving totally contradictory signals eh? I'm not saying I'm actually any GOOD at this as I still rely on my reins when I really shouldn't but was trying to get better. Sadly I've not had a lesson in a few years due to brokenness of horse & eventual PTS so I've probably forgotten everything anyway! (I, for some reason, seem to struggle to know what all the various bits of my body are doing at any one time anyway... literally someone can ask me "why is your left leg doing X" & my response can range from "Is it?" to "Yeah I know it's doing that but I don't know why & haven't a clue how to stop it!")

Anyhow the person who probably taught me most "classically" liked to tell me (& I'm going to end up paraphrasing a bit here as like I said haven't had lessons in a while) that my reins were not there to turn my horse or to act as my brakes. (Apparently my seat is supposed to do both of these... not that it's always any good at it!) They were there to help guide the horse & ask him to soften. Oh & I also used to get told off for looking around the arena rather than at what my horse was doing (possibly because I was incapable of looking around without twisting the rest of my body & unbalancing my horse...)

 

[honetpot]

It very hard for a child to learn to use their seat to ride, usually because the pony hasn’t got a clue because it’s never been taught,
Or the relative weight of the child say 30kg on a 300kg pony is small,
Or the child just does not have that level of control yet.
But it’s not impossible.
I start with getting to feel their bum bones so they haven’t got a chair seat. To get them away from handle bars, learning to turn the head and shoulders when they want to turn before they use their hands.
I think when they are old enough to slow their rising trot down to slow the pony down that is when they really start to get it, but they have to ride to fairly well and have core strength before they can do that.
If you want Riding not to become a chore I wouldn’t do to much in one go and break it down in to simple parts.

 

[whiteflower]

As has been mentioned above it's very much dependant on rider and horse level. For the lower level/less experienced combinations than a more 'literal' description and 'aid' may need to be applied. At a more experienced level alot of what occurs can be done by feel and responding to what you are feeling the horse doing underneath you. There are therefore often no set routeens as the rider response to the horse differs due to what feel the horse is giving. I feel it almost becomes individual to the partnership.
For where you and your son are it's sounds like for now you are better to choose and instructor who's ways work for you and then once more established things will progress more towards feel

 

[Goldenstar]

Horses vary some are very quick to respond to a different riders who give slightly different aids others are not .

 

[tristar]

Now I know there's a French school of thought/training for dressage and a German school. No problem with that. But in the past, every instructor I met used the same basic aids, but some with different approaches depending on the school of thought they followed or whether they were dressage/SJ trained. I had ten years out to have children, and now every instructor I meet has different actual aids for things. I mean, why? Surely there has to be some commonality so you can actually buy a horse and it understands what the new owner means?

So.... you can turn by:
- using your inside rein and outside leg
- using your inside leg only(squeeze or stepping through the stirrup depending on instructor asked)
- using weight + inside leg + outside leg + inside rein
- using weight + inside leg + outside rein
- half halting before one of the above

Or canter by:
- pushing inside hip forwards
- rotating outside hip backwards and dropping it
- inside leg only
- outside leg back, aid from outside leg
- outside leg back, aid from inside leg
- seat aid, then outside leg back, aid from inside leg

Or make a downwards transition by:
- breathing out and closing hands
- leaning back and pulling on reins
- just pulling on the reins
- blocking seat aid, close legs, close hands
- squeeze with knees, close legs then hands.
half halt before one of the above

Now I sit on my recently backed youngster and she responds automatically to the same seat/weight aids that my 13 year old mare did at the same age. Instinct, no teaching required. Horses haven't changed, why are humans messing with the 'language'?

nobody makes money out making things simple, when in doubt do what the horse does, he initiates canter with his outside hind leg, your main job is to being going well, sitting without tension, not catching him in the mouth when he jumps into canter and being prepared to go forwards faster,{ at a basic level anyway}

 

[windand rain]

In all of that the bit that seems to be missing is riding forward into downward transitions.

 

[Keith_Beef]

I first of all learnt to ride a bicycle in traffic, then a motorcycle, then to drive a car and finally a horse.

I find that my idea of keeping an eye on what's happening around me, knowing where everybody else in the school is situated, and necessarily turning my head, shoulders and upper body where I want the horse to go is very much more intuitive that what I see from other riders in my class.

There are two horses I ride who will, at a walk, go exactly where I want, without me holding the reins and without me consciously applying leg aids; but I can't steer them like that at a trot or canter.

Reading this thread makes me think that I might, one day, be able to find that degree of control at all paces just through my seat, and it's encouraging.

 

[tallyho!]

You will Keith Beef! It’s not as hard as you think...

The other problem people have is they sit too far back on their seatbone (or not at all in some cases) and you can’t influence the shoulders like that, your legs are invariably useless.

Has anyone here seen Sylvia Loch’s video on the classical seat? Where the two ladies walk the aids in the tennis court? Just do that.. and remember you can’t do it on a chair so don’t sit like you’re in a chair, on the horse.

I may have overly simplified it but if you think simply, getting the very foundation simple then the rest of the “house” as it were, can be built easily.

You honestly will not go far wrong with Sylvia’s books. Find some classical dressage clinics as I find they all build on the same foundation no matter where you go, but the more complex stuff can be different and anyway that’s where you start to pick things that work for your particular partnership/s (if you have two very different horses with different attitudes let’s say).

 

[tristar]

thats where is at keith, if you know that now one day you will find it

 

[tristar]

You will Keith Beef! It’s not as hard as you think...

The other problem people have is they sit too far back on their seatbone (or not at all in some cases) and you can’t influence the shoulders like that, your legs are invariably useless.

Has anyone here seen Sylvia Loch’s video on the classical seat? Where the two ladies walk the aids in the tennis court? Just do that.. and remember you can’t do it on a chair so don’t sit like you’re in a chair, on the horse.

I may have overly simplified it but if you think simply, getting the very foundation simple then the rest of the “house” as it were, can be built easily.

You honestly will not go far wrong with Sylvia’s books. Find some classical dressage clinics as I find they all build on the same foundation no matter where you go, but the more complex stuff can be different and anyway that’s where you start to pick things that work for your particular partnership/s (if you have two very different horses with different attitudes let’s say).

i saw that years ago, on the tennis court.

i find sitting with too much weight on the seat does not help me