Friends that don't agree with owning pets

milliepops said:
Yes I have posted before that I think one day I won't be riding my horses. At the moment i can keep up the doublethink needed to justify it to myself but I don't know if that will last forever. I definitely get more benefit out of the arrangement than they do. up to now I've always taken on horses that are duffers in need of a new home but this year I'm hoping for my first homebred, that's a bit different ethically I think but for now I'm just parking that bit of mental spaghetti ;)
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Where would they be if you didn’t own them? That’s the bit I can’t get my head around. A world without our domesticated animals in would be awful imo.

I disagree that we get more out of it than they do. Simply put, without us, they would die. As someone else said further up, our domesticated animals are so far from their wild forebearers that it would be impossible to expect them to survive without the care of humans.
 
Without domesticated animals most of the human race would not exist.. As nomadic hunter gatherers our numbers would have been dramatically smaller and there would have been little time for development in other areas such as science and medicine.
Doubt there would have been many, or even any, vegans in that case... So you could say that the opportunity to be vegan is there very much on the back of the domestication of animals... As is the good health and any vitamin supplements when needed.
 
Attaching themselves to humans has been a very smart evolutionary move for all domesticated species, including crop plants and farm animals. Whether it is more of a symbiosis like with dogs or a more exploitative relationship it still benefits both parties from an evolutionary perspective. From an ethical perspective it's obviously more complex but there's little point throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I treat my animals well and carefully consider where the food I buy comes from. I can't follow a vegan diet as I did it for 3 years and it made me very ill. Which my judgey vegan (ex)friend point blank refused to hear. Another friend who is vegan keeps animals and uses leather products etc but interestingly doesn't describe herself as vegan any more. Just says she follows a plant-based diet. She's obviously been stung by the purists at some point!
 
Veganism/vegetarianism is not a natural choice for humans. We are designed by nature to be omnivores, as are most great apes, with a strong inclination towards meat eating as indicated by our dentition, digestive system, vitamin/mineral requirements and taste buds. It is perfectly possible to exist on a plant-only diet, but it is not how our systems were designed.

*PS: I was a vegetarian for 14+ years.
 
I've been a vegetarian for 35 years, simple reason I am is because I don't digest meat very well. I still rear and kill chickens, still use leather in my saddlery workshop, feed my dogs raw meat and bones and still cook meat for meat eating friends. I don't push my views on anybody, each unto their own. Recently re introduced beef fat and non veggie gravy in to my diet and I enjoy it. If people start lecturing me or suggesting I do otherwise they can Pee off
 
If you wanted to engage with them on it...

I don’t think I would want to live in a world where people didn’t have companion animals.

Having animals in my life has taught me patience, compassion, responsibility and how to build a relationship on trust without words and through actions only. I’ve learned about life and death, how to make hard decisions, and how to know when to ask for help and to use experts or trust my instincts. I’ve also lived in quite a few countries and some with many distinct cultures and I genuinely believe that communities who have relationships with animals that go beyond resource and subsistence are more compassionate and kinder to each other.

I think that caring for animals makes us better people, and I’d think the world would be a poorer, more selfish and less compassionate place without companion animals.

I realise that this is a human-centric thought process so could be used to reinforce the ‘animals for the benefit of people’ objection. However, if you add it to the concept of mutual benefit that posters above have put forward above, and the evolution realities that would mean our horses wouldn’t fare terribly well if we all turned them loose, I’m personally comfortable that the ethical pros would far outweigh the cons.

I did ten years as a vegetarian, 3 as a vegan and now eat small amounts of meat, dairy and eggs from our neighboring farms with some very occasional exceptions for foreign cheeses like feta and parmesan.
 
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meleeka said:
Where would they be if you didn’t own them? That’s the bit I can’t get my head around. A world without our domesticated animals in would be awful imo.

I disagree that we get more out of it than they do. Simply put, without us, they would die. As someone else said further up, our domesticated animals are so far from their wild forebearers that it would be impossible to expect them to survive without the care of humans.
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I'd still have them, I just probably deep down think I wouldn't be riding them. And the foal on the way wouldn't have been born. I don't think my horses get anything really out of the training I do with them or being bundled off to shows, that is a one-way benefit arrangement. It puts a certain degree of mental and physical stress on them, can't avoid it when you do something so unnatural to them.

I have 3 pensioned off in the field that objectively have quite a nice existence.
 
milliepops said:
I'd still have them, I just probably deep down think I wouldn't be riding them. And the foal on the way wouldn't have been born. I don't think my horses get anything really out of the training I do with them or being bundled off to shows, that is a one-way benefit arrangement. It puts a certain degree of mental and physical stress on them, can't avoid it when you do something so unnatural to them.
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Surely your horses get to exist at all, and during that existence they are fed, looked after and protected and kept free of disease. That is a two way benefit most definitely. As has been said above, a world without our companion and domestic animals would be a very sad place IMHO. They provide so much for us, and we provide so much for them. I can understand wanting to redress the balance around that in many ways, but to eliminate those animals from existance at all and to believe this a better state of affairs - I can't get my head around that at all......
 
The nudging each other would be enough for me to seriously rethink this friendship. I agree, it's not a vegan issue. It's being a crap friend issue. I have flirted with veganism and still have vegan friends. None of us have ever been judgemental and when I ate vegan, people only found out by me ordering from the vegan options out and about. I still do that when I can. My pets have always had a species appropriate diet, but I'm under no illusions as to who owns who. I was the one on hands and knees earlier picking poo balls out of the churned up turf - not the other way round. ;-)
 
Leandy said:
Surely your horses get to exist at all, and during that existence they are fed, looked after and protected and kept free of disease. That is a two way benefit most definitely. As has been said above, a world without our companion and domestic animals would be a very sad place IMHO. They provide so much for us, and we provide so much for them. I can understand wanting to redress the balance around that in many ways, but to eliminate those animals from existance at all and to believe this a better state of affairs - I can't get my head around that at all......
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I've already said twice that I would still keep mine, i already keep 3 non ridden horses ;) they get fed and looked after etc but don't have to do schooling or go to shows or lessons like the other 2 suckers.
I just don't really know whether it's a fair balance to ride a horse for fun, in return for keeping it alive... I enjoy the company of the non ridden ones so I'll always have them anyway.
 
milliepops said:
I've already said twice that I would still keep mine, i already keep 3 non ridden horses ;) they get fed and looked after etc but don't have to do schooling or go to shows or lessons like the other 2 suckers.
I just don't really know whether it's a fair balance to ride a horse for fun, in return for keeping it alive... I enjoy the company of the non ridden ones so I'll always have them anyway.
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I think there are horses though that are happier and healthier with a 'job'.
 
Fransurrey said:
The nudging each other would be enough for me to seriously rethink this friendship. I agree, it's not a vegan issue. It's being a crap friend issue. I have flirted with veganism and still have vegan friends. None of us have ever been judgemental and when I ate vegan, people only found out by me ordering from the vegan options out and about. I still do that when I can. My pets have always had a species appropriate diet, but I'm under no illusions as to who owns who. I was the one on hands and knees earlier picking poo balls out of the churned up turf - not the other way round. ;-)
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Yes it's the nudging/ rudeness that upset/surprised me most. Although it doesn't sit too comfortably just how little they agree with my lifestyle. As others have pointed out I also find they're becoming quite hypocritical; they go on more holidays than anyone I know.
 
meleeka said:
Where would they be if you didn’t own them? That’s the bit I can’t get my head around. A world without our domesticated animals in would be awful imo.

I disagree that we get more out of it than they do. Simply put, without us, they would die. As someone else said further up, our domesticated animals are so far from their wild forebearers that it would be impossible to expect them to survive without the care of humans.
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Without getting too deep I think the argument is that we would stop breeding some animals rather than turf out the ones that we currently have. It is not necessarily my view but is something I have been thinking over and I think the argument could differ depending what animal we talk about. My last pets (guinea pets) had a very large cage, safety from predators, suitable diet and the vet when they needed it. In exchange I had them taken them from their family group, put them in a social group of my own choosing and denied them the opportunity to breed. Did I have the right to take those choices away? It is an interesting question and is something I have only recently considered. It's something I often fancy discussing but as it is so emotive it is hard even amongst friends :)
 
Bellaboo18 said:
I think there are horses though that are happier and healthier with a 'job'.
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I honestly used to think I had one of those, until I retired her. Now her job is spying on the neighbours and perusing the hedges ;) She's a very happy retiree.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not remotely having a dig at people who like riding (I am one of them and I train my horses quite hard for their types and expect a lot of them). but I also see how content my previously busy horses are, when they don't have to do anything for me any more, except have some scratches and eat carrots when I turn up :) I did have to make big changes to give them a good retirement though, being on livery with limited turnout wouldn't have cut it.
 
Courbette said:
Without getting too deep I think the argument is that we would stop breeding some animals rather than turf out the ones that we currently have.
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this, exactly, in my case. I've a mare in foal at the moment who will hopefully produce my next riding horse. I wouldn't have done that if I wasn't riding any more, though I may well have had space to take on another old crock ;)
 
Cobgobblegobble said:
Without domesticated animals most of the human race would not exist.. As nomadic hunter gatherers our numbers would have been dramatically smaller and there would have been little time for development in other areas such as science and medicine.
Doubt there would have been many, or even any, vegans in that case... So you could say that the opportunity to be vegan is there very much on the back of the domestication of animals... As is the good health and any vitamin supplements when needed.
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Agreed, if it wasnt for import and export of foods around the world we would have little choice in our diet. Modern man lives in luxury due to this and can choose any diet due to modern transports of global foods.

The domesticated animals we have generally live longer dont they, due to us looking after them so well.
Show me wild horses that average 20-30 yrs of age! Parasites, disease, malnutrition, injuries all cause earlyish deaths in wild horses. Yet domesticated horses often reach multiple decades.
So animals as ‘pets’ get a longer life experience, a more diverse experience due to being around humans and other animals, and they get to live longer by being looked after by us. That is a great experience for them and us. Undeniable.
How wonderful they are so adaptable that they mould to our lifestyles, alongside us, and thrive.

(Abused animals as pets, ignored, not given the chance of being an animal/caged etc is NOT acceptable and does not enhance their life, they are better off free in the wild for shorter years than longer life domesticated and abused)

Animals are very adaptable. I dont wholly agree with the stance that due to domestication for so long dogs/cats/horses couldnt survive in the wild. There are many countries where stray dogs particularly are a large population and they scavange for food. My cats have always hunted for birds, rats, mice and this new one can catch squirrels! My GSD chases deer in the hopes of a meal, and pheasants, bird nests for eggs etc. I know if i released my horses they would movement graze throughout the valleys and just get on with life.
Its like we can mask the wild nature of animals with domestication, but their wild nature is always there for them to revert to should they need to.
So i can’t have the stance that domesticating animals is essential because they need us as we’ve bred out the ‘wild’ in them.
Except for maybe those ‘handbag mini dogs’ that are fashionable with some! ;)
Certain dog breeds are a grey area because weve taken them so far from their natural genetic heritage by selective breeding, which if left alone, nature would not have produced those sub-species of canine.

Nature produces species of animals and plants that can survive in the wild, human selective breeding and hybridisation has produced species of both that wouldnt have been produced naturally, so their adaptability to the wild life depends on how far removed from the natural genetic pool they have been bred.

Animals are far more adaptable and accepting - they accept vegetarians, meat eaters and vegan humans, whereas humans cant seem to accept one another - the animals can teach US a lot!

OP - your friends astound me. As has been said, this isnt a vegan issue, its a personality issue. You cooked them meat when they were meateaters while youre vegetarian. Now theyre vegan they want you to provide vegan food and give up your pets! That’s classed as being narcissistic behaviour.
Never ever did i expect a meat eating household to accomodate me. I would eat what they were having, without the meat. Im not fussy. Compromise is easy. Some friends would try to cook vegan which i thought was so kind but un-necessary as im happy with a plate of veg for one meal! My meat eating friends likewise are happy to eat vegetarian when visiting, they like it. Its about being adaptable, not dictatorial.
I believe if it wasnt food choices that brought these personality traits out in the open with your friends it would have been something else alerting you to the fact they like to judge others harshly and thrive on putting others down.

Its hard to realise this with longterm friends, but we’re all travelling our own paths, and we’re not all going in the same direction. The path forks and some will go another way, leaving very little in common to enjoy one anothers company.
It doesnt have to be this way if we were to agree to disagree, accept we’re all different and discuss beliefs, than argue/criticize and put others down.
 
I have a problem with the idea that one owns a pet.. I think the truth is that the pet owns you.

They dictate how you spend your time, your money... Even sometimes where you live... Whether you take holidays, how long you go out for... The accommodations we make for our pets are myriad and most people will be so used to them that they no longer notice.. But if it wasn't a partnership that worked for both sides it would have gone out of fashion shortly after it started all those thousands of years ago.
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milliepops said:
I've already said twice that I would still keep mine, i already keep 3 non ridden horses ;) they get fed and looked after etc but don't have to do schooling or go to shows or lessons like the other 2 suckers.
I just don't really know whether it's a fair balance to ride a horse for fun, in return for keeping it alive... I enjoy the company of the non ridden ones so I'll always have them anyway.
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milliepops said:
yes I agree with this. If you want to maintain the friendship I think I'd get it out in the open one day, and acknowledge that you have some differences but the friendship is important so try to agree to disagree on that subject and then move on.

If that's not possible then I guess it's the end of that.hu

My Dad thinks keeping and riding horses is cruel... we just don't talk about it ;)
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I think of This a bit differently to - most things in life haven’t to ‘do’ SOmething so that they can exist... hunt for food, avoid danger, go to work, my horses get everything they need and A home for life with turn out, medical care etc if they have to carry me around for 3 hours a week that they don’t need seem dont seemto object too strongly to i think is is a fair Trade and better than we treat most humans tbh
 
milliepops said:
I'd still have them, I just probably deep down think I wouldn't be riding them. And the foal on the way wouldn't have been born. I don't think my horses get anything really out of the training I do with them or being bundled off to shows, that is a one-way benefit arrangement. It puts a certain degree of mental and physical stress on them, can't avoid it when you do something so unnatural to them.

I have 3 pensioned off in the field that objectively have quite a nice existence.
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i really can`t understand this, i always feel that my horses love to be ridden, love being with people and benefit greatly from being fit.

but, i must say i approach riding as if i am doing it for them not just myself, so i feel it makes me think differently to seeing it as an end to competition, more a privileged place that i find myself in, i could never willingly give up riding, i live to ride and spend time with horses, but on their backs is the best place in the world for me .

i know an international showjumping stallion who when he was retired would throw a wobbly on the yard if he saw other horses going on the box to show, he hated being left behind, broke every ones heart nearly,and many other animals who hate the being left at home thing, we need to listen to their needs and wants

i think its great your retirees have such a nice time together though

i remember my grandfather , when he was 88 saying how he wished he could get on a horse and ride again, with such passion i never forgot, so i learned from that to not waste it and get on those horses at every chance even for a doddle round
 
milliepops said:
yes I agree with this. If you want to maintain the friendship I think I'd get it out in the open one day, and acknowledge that you have some differences but the friendship is important so try to agree to disagree on that subject and then move on.

If that's not possible then I guess it's the end of that.

My Dad thinks keeping and riding horses is cruel... we just don't talk about it ;)
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How did you end up getting in to horses? Your dad mustn't have been keen on bringing you for lessons.
 
I dearly love riding and teaching a horse how to use its body in a way that makes it stronger and more supple , with understanding, is something I enjoy greatly but i simply dont think my horses stand around wishing I'd turn up to ride them. I think they're tremendously forgiving and accommodating animals but it does concern me that those traits mean its easy for us to take advantage. ??‍♀️
 
I would ditch them .
no messing .
Theres really only one thing that’s a no no with me and that’s pets or should I say those don’t embrace the pet thing .
I am an atheist with religious friends but pets that’s a non negotiable with me .
Why do most vegans turn in to crashing judgemental bores ?
 
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They sound insufferable - you must have a lot of patience to still be friends. If they start on at you I would just point out that neither your dogs or your horses want to be thrown out to fend for themselves, and that they certainly would not make a very good job of it. In my opinion it is a total myth that animals were happier in the wild - the reality is that many died horrible deaths at a young age, but since they were not castrated and had many offspring there were enough to replace them. The same idea as having 15 children and not taking care of them, so only a certain number would survive. Good luck with these friends!
 
milliepops said:
I dearly love riding and teaching a horse how to use its body in a way that makes it stronger and more supple , with understanding, is something I enjoy greatly but i simply dont think my horses stand around wishing I'd turn up to ride them. I think they're tremendously forgiving and accommodating animals but it does concern me that those traits mean its easy for us to take advantage. ??‍♀️
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Is it taking advantage of its for their good... I hate going to the gym and would happily sit on my arse but my partner kicks me up the bum (metaphorically) and says I’ll feel better if I go - he’s right too... I enjoy it when I go and I feel better so is that exploitation because I don’t sit around at home thinking ‘I really want to go to the gym?’
 
blitznbobs said:
Is it taking advantage of its for their good... I hate going to the gym and would happily sit on my arse but my partner kicks me up the bum (metaphorically) and says I’ll feel better if I go - he’s right too... I enjoy it when I go and I feel better so is that exploitation because I don’t sit around at home thinking ‘I really want to go to the gym?’
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This is the sticking point for me and probably why I have started to question my views. I'm on a large livery yard and there are quite a few horses out of work at the minute, many through complications from being ridden or mistakes made in management and most probably preventable. It's moving slightly off topic but animal ownership is not a level playing field although if all the 'good' owners stopped keeping animal there would be nobody to set an example to those who need a nudge in the right direction.

A dog with a caring owner and an active lifestyle if a different proposition to a child's rabbit thats rarely let out of it's hutch for example.
 
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