Friends that don't agree with owning pets

whereas I see lots of horses being worked that should be either retired or PTS. I'm not quite sure that me doing my best to keep mine as well as possible IN work really can square that circle. I don't think anyone who I see riding a crocked horse looks at me busting a gut to look after mine and sees that as an example to follow, I think they are oblivious to their horse's suffering :(
and thinking about that in general makes me question what I do - AM i noticing all the little things that my horses suffer? do I address them all or do I miss things? is that really fair? dunno. Will conveniently forget it all again for a bit ;)
 
blitznbobs said:
I don’t understand the dog thing... dogs have been with humans for over 30000 years and maybe more than 50000 years according to the latest fossil finds . This means that dogs have evolved to live in symbiosis with us it is therefore exploiting dogs to make them do anything other than live with us. As we are their natural habitat.
Click to expand...

there's a theory that the dogs actually 'trained' us - they found a source of easy food in a human camp/household and hung around to take advantage. Then over time became workmates and companions.
 
mle22 said:
In the very, very long relationship between humans and horses, horses have always been used and abused.
Click to expand...

Some people have used and abused horses,( and women, and children, and each other) yes, but many people have gone to great lengths to provide a rewarding, happy life for their animals, to cure their diseases, understand them better, take care of them in their old age. Generalisations are not truths, they are propaganda and they distort the truth.
 
Thank you to everyone that's replied. You've helped me think it through.

As far as my personal opinion goes, I think we have a responsibility to look after the animals we've domesticated. I am confident my animals live a happy life. I don't think it's enough to give them the gift to exist, we need to give them a life worth living. A life free from pain and unnecessary stress, a life where they can exhibit natural behaviours.
I don't think we have a planet where the animals we have domesticated can thrive in the wild. We're just too overpopulated.
I have no ethical concern about keeping pets and I definitely know pets that enjoy a job. No horse is being forced around badminton.
We all have lines that we won't morally cross. For me I don't eat meat as I don't want to support intensive farming however I actually have no problem eating meat that has lived a more natural life, I just don't as it's easier for me to have a black and white line. l also wouldn't personally breed an animal when I know there's far too many already without homes.

But actually none of the above matters. They are my views and I'm comfortable enough with them that I don't need to force them on to anyone. I think it's good to question our actions but for now I'm happy with the life I lead.

As for my friends, I don't think at the moment I enjoy their company like I once did. Hopefully we'll go full circle and find some common ground again in the future but for now I don't think we'll be spending much time together.

Thank you to everyone that's posted, I was upset and wondered if I was being overly sensitive.
 
catkin said:
there's a theory that the dogs actually 'trained' us - they found a source of easy food in a human camp/household and hung around to take advantage. Then over time became workmates and companions.
Click to expand...

This can be applied even more so to cats... cats moved in with humans as our grain stores were a great source of mice and vermin... and they've never seen it as necessary to give up their independence
 
Genetics plays a big part in this whole equation. My Lab, for example, goes mad for pheasants, even tho' she's not a gun dog. The bloodlines of horses will influence their motivations too e.g successful racehorses are bred with that competitive instinct, show jumpers are bred with the instinct to jump that big jump etc. etc. There's lots of scientific evidence around this.
 
meleeka said:
Where would they be if you didn’t own them? That’s the bit I can’t get my head around. A world without our domesticated animals in would be awful imo.

I disagree that we get more out of it than they do. Simply put, without us, they would die. As someone else said further up, our domesticated animals are so far from their wild forebearers that it would be impossible to expect them to survive without the care of humans.
Click to expand...

That's not wholly accurate for horses... they were domesticated probably 6000 years ago and some finds are showing preserved bodies dug up with horse DNA of even older than that.

The "wild" horses in America are feral - were domestic but have lived a wild life possibly since the Conquistadors in the 1500's so it's very possible if we were to be wiped out fin the blink of an eye or some reason, any horse not locked in a stable will most likely learn to live a feral life wherever they are - with perhaps the exception of warmbloods ;P.
 
Sugarplum said:
No, only "Ethical Vegans" - people who do not believe in any form of animal suffering and avoid any form of animal product, byproduct or processed with animal products. There's quite a lot to it.

Dietary vegans are not protected.
Click to expand...

I had previously been led to believe that being vegan was the first definition and that eating a plant based diet was the latter.

I know someone who claims to be an ethical vegan and yet is in the military. I’m not sure how the two are compatible
 
Sugarplum said:
That's not wholly accurate for horses... they were domesticated probably 6000 years ago and some finds are showing preserved bodies dug up with horse DNA of even older than that.

The "wild" horses in America are feral - were domestic but have lived a wild life possibly since the Conquistadors in the 1500's so it's very possible if we were to be wiped out fin the blink of an eye or some reason, any horse not locked in a stable will most likely learn to live a feral life wherever they are - with perhaps the exception of warmbloods ;P.
Click to expand...

My comment was referring to cats and dogs really. Obviously horses, not being hunters, would and do survive without human help because they’d find food. I live near the New Forest and the horses look far better now than they did 20 years ago when they had minimal intervention and the numbers weren’t controlled.
 
OP, I hope that you can find a way forward with your friends. However, friends should be fun to be with and not judgemental, so this needs either a tough open conversation or a walk away. Like others, I ‘d worry about the dog, they sound like they haven’t considered it’s needs at all.
Interesting discussion about companion animals (or pets!). My cat owns me and my OH, but like MP I don’t think too hard about the ethics of riding my horse. I do my best to meet his needs and keep him comfortable, and try not to think about the fact that he’d be best off not being ridden at all!

The ethical vegan concept is interesting, where do you draw the line? Human population has the biggest impact on other living beings, so do ethical vegans have to commit to not having kids? The sad fact is that there are too many people on the planet. That is ultimately the thing that will have the biggest impact on all other animals on earth.
 
I watched a documentary a few years ago about a woman's 'journey,' starting as a US hunter/jumper trainer, which is a pretty ruthless world as far as welfare or anything else goes, and then interviewing kinder, gentler trainers like Mark Rashid and Buck Brannaman and so forth, and then she ended with interviewing Alexander Nevzorov, who clearly has some axes to grind against everything, and the filmaker concluding that riding horses in and of itself was cruel and no longer (allegedly) riding her own horses, but rather pursuing relationships with them while her feet remained firmly planted on the ground. The film did make me think about the ethics of riding. But not enough to not do it. I suppose I looked at my horse and asked myself, Is she giving me any indication that being ridden is stressful or uncomfortable? Not really. In fact, she's eager for it, especially hacking. One could lead the horse on hacks, but she walks faster than most humans. Then I put on a saddle.

'Drawing the line' is kind of impossible. Do you forego driving, animal products of any sort, plastics, oil, mass produced things....? You just can't unless you live in a cabin in the woods and you are totally self-sufficient. That doesn't mean we shouldn't do what we can, making whatever differences we feel we can personally make. But we shouldn't be preachy assholes about those choices. Ultimately, being a preachy asshole backfires. Absolutely, meat consumption should be decreased, but making people defensive won't help and just polarises the whole discourse.
 
Last edited:
Years ago I was looking at hiking boots in a store and there was a version labeled "The Vegan." I asked the saleswoman about them and she said that they had no animal products unless you include the dead dinosaurs.
 
The posts about horses enjoying being ridden or those who'd prefer not to be is interesting. The thread has got me thinking about my own horse. Mine adores jumping. If he sees a jump he zooms over and tries to jump it:D If he had a choice I'd say he'd choose to jump but wouldn't choose schooling or solo hacking. Now that his problems with stiffness has been sorted (see my barefoot post if interested) I think he'll be happier to do dressage because it will be easier for him.

I've lost interest in jumping over the last year and a half so I just pop the odd cross pole to keep him happy. I do now feel that I should jump him because he enjoys it so much. I think when he's ok to jump barefoot I will bring him to the group lessons that the local riding school has. It seems fair that we should do something that's enjoyable for him too. The group lessons are more of a social thing anyway so it's not like I'll have to be really interested in jumping.
 
Cobgobblegobble said:
I have a problem with the idea that one owns a pet.. I think the truth is that the pet owns you.

They dictate how you spend your time, your money... Even sometimes where you live... Whether you take holidays, how long you go out for... The accommodations we make for our pets are myriad and most people will be so used to them that they no longer notice.. But if it wasn't a partnership that worked for both sides it would have gone out of fashion shortly after it started all those thousands of years ago.
.
Click to expand...


This is SO SO true. I found my dog on the street almost 11 years ago, sick and unable to walk properly. We got him back to health, drove him 2000 km to the best orthopedic vet in Europe (many times including all the follow up visits) for 2 major and 3 minor surgeries. Took about a year to get him right, but since then he has had 10 years of a fantastic and active life. His needs dictate what we do, we have not taken a holiday without him since he found us, so we have to stick to somewhere that is within driving distance and is dog friendly. But the relationship is totally symbiotic, we would not be without him for the world and he brings us so much joy.
 
I agree, there are lots of good pet owners and for these it is a great partnership that works both ways. It’s not so great for the estimated 130,000 (dogs) than find themselves in UK shelters every year. My last dog had spent 4 yrs in kennels awaiting rehoming before we took him on.
 
Genuine question prompted by my daughters imminent return to school. What does an "Ethical Vegan" do if they or their child has lice?
 
Jules111 said:
Genuine question prompted by my daughters imminent return to school. What does an "Ethical Vegan" do if they or their child has lice?
Click to expand...

As far as I've been able to find out the answer is either a nit comb in the garden.. Or nit treatment like anyone else. Depending on how ethical (or itchy?) they are feeling. ?
 
My ethical vegan pal wanted me to dispose of a tick i pulled off my dog in a ‘kind’ way! “Dont kill it!”
Frowns at me using sticky fly paper to catch midges.
So for head lice, i would imagine the old nit comb!

It’s all about allowing everything complete freedom to live in the environment it was born in, without any human killing anything.
Many do have a grudge against the human race as a whole dictating the fate of every living thing on the planet and taking over completely.
 
I think at the root of extreme ethical veganism is the inacceptance of death.

There’s a lyric in a led zeppelin song “all that lives is born to die”,

For some, this is deeply troubling and unacceptable. The ethical vegan stance/preference is Life for ALL creatures should be joyful, always. Never any suffering.
Yet all things die, and often as a consequence of someone/something else’s actions. Road traffic accidents, bad diet + disease, wrongly prescribed medication kills millions just in america annually. Humans, Animals, bugs and bacteria are killed by the fate of natural weather/ecology, not just humans.
It’s hard to accept suffering occurs even if not intended.
Death is inevitable for all, living in sorrow because of it is an injustice to Life.

My vegan friend blatantly admits harbouring death anxiety.
 
Here's a question for ethical vegans. I have two sundews and one venus flytrap in my bedroom that catch bugs flying through the window, and I originally bought the sundews to eat the fruit flies that were emerging from some chilli plants I was growing (I got the flytrap long after I'd given up on chilli plants, but I fancied it). The plants are pretty effective. Is that ethical, because a carniverous plant eating insects is a "natural" -- as in non-human -- processs (unlike flypaper or a rolled up newspaper)? Of course, sundews and venus flytraps don't naturally grow in small Glasgow flats, so it isn't a non-human process at all. I'm not personally killing any bugs, but I did make the choice to buy the plants, and I water them so they stay alive and eat more bugs.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top