Frustrated....help

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Germolene

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Hi all....I have a 5 year old AngloArab, she has been in work for the last 7 months (since I've owned her), and I would say it's only in the last month & half where she's started working in an outline, before this she was a proper star gazer, in fact I thought her head/nose would never drop, so she has made progress there. The problem is, I just can't keep her in an outline, I end up in a real fight with her and even if I don't fight she'll just keep her head up and nose poked out and it's just am awful hollow feeling. I am so frustrated because my instructor and also another very experienced producer have ridden her and she doesn't seem to fight with them like she does with me! I am having lessons with the instructor that is also riding her for me, but I just don't know what I'm doing so wrong! I have spent a lot of money on this mare to make sure she is happy, got her a micklem bridle but I didn't feel any difference really, she has a custom made saddle, she has had the dentist twice, no problems there and also a Physio, no problems there either. Bit wise, I have tried plain single joint snaffle, eggbutt....a sweet iron copper lozenge loose ring, a happy mouth with roller 'she hated this one' and then I got a Wilkie snaffle which is quite thinner and she was/is definitely more responsive/respectful of this bit, BUT she doesn't seem to mouth at all, produced absolutely NO saliva/foam....so as suggested by somebody I tried her with a loose ring sweet iron with copper rings and although she almost immediately started mouthing and produced saliva, she was absolutely horrible to ride in it, was throwing her head all over and really snatching the reins, I just could NOT get her in a contact, especially on the left rein which is her worst. I don't want to resort to a stronger bit and seeing that she can work in an outline just not for me.....I've hit a brick wall now. Beginning to just think, oh well I'm obviously not good enough for her! Does anybody have any suggestions at all?? I have worked a lot on hers and my balance and all the aids I'm giving her match what my instructor does when she rides, but my instructor hardly has any contact and she keeps her head down all the time, but if I have hardly any contact she becomes a giraffe and that's it then! What am I doing wrong???? :-(
 
As nobody else has replied...

Clearly if she is going properly for your instructor and not for you, it is something you are doing wrong - sorry, I know you know this! Really, your instructor should have been able to explain to you clearly where it is going wrong for you and if they can't they may be a better rider than trainer ;)

My guess is that she may be supporting with a lot more leg than you are, or otherwise that you are struggling with your own balance and thus using your hands when you don't want/intend to but really without video it is impossible to say. A stronger bit is NOT the answer, a more illuminating instructor may be, or just pinning your current one down and insisiting she explain where it is going wrong - maybe she mistakenly thinks she is sparing your feelings...
 
Thanks for replying lol. And yes I know it's me, which is why I'm frustrated...I ask my instructor all the time as we have quite a good friendly relationship as she also schools my horse and I'll sit and watch and ask a lot of questions. She says she rides her so well because of years and years of riding but she also tells me not to be hard on myself because my horse is and hard work and evades everything lol.
I'm not getting a stronger bit, as I said before she can work in an outline, so it wouldn't be right to get a stronger bit, because of my issues. It's quite obviously me! Or my hands should I say! I try and try to keep my hands steady and I think they are but my horse obviously knows they're not lol. What can I do to help myself??
 
I am in no way an expert at all, happy hacker through and through but my daughter has had a lot of issues with her hands. She has a lovely horse who have been together for 2 years and had several different instructors before the guy she has now and it has been a real eye opener ! Horse has competed successfully upto elem BD before so he knew the game but we found that daughter was taking her right hand back all the time not always obvious to the eye but she was and horse went into giraffe mode.

Through hard work and lessons with this guy who insists she rides from her leg into her hand and keeps her hands slightly up and forward especially the inside hand. Sounds straight forward but my daughter just was not doing this and pulling back mainly with one hand which the horse then went against. Your horse may be very sensitive to the hand. I know I haven't explained it very well and can feel your frustration but maybe a lesson or two with another instructor might help. My daughter has found it a very difficult habit to break but this winter she has felt the difference and I think once you feel the horse soften it becomes easier….
 
morrismob said:
I am in no way an expert at all, happy hacker through and through but my daughter has had a lot of issues with her hands. She has a lovely horse who have been together for 2 years and had several different instructors before the guy she has now and it has been a real eye opener ! Horse has competed successfully upto elem BD before so he knew the game but we found that daughter was taking her right hand back all the time not always obvious to the eye but she was and horse went into giraffe mode.

Through hard work and lessons with this guy who insists she rides from her leg into her hand and keeps her hands slightly up and forward especially the inside hand. Sounds straight forward but my daughter just was not doing this and pulling back mainly with one hand which the horse then went against. Your horse may be very sensitive to the hand. I know I haven't explained it very well and can feel your frustration but maybe a lesson or two with another instructor might help. My daughter has found it a very difficult habit to break but this winter she has felt the difference and I think once you feel the horse soften it becomes easier….
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This is almost exactly what I was doing, but it made my horse lean so much, he was horrible to ride. I had to ride concentrating on my hands staying an exact pair all the time, and thinking of them as being forwards into his mouth, if that makes sense. Again, it was invisible what I was doing and I didn't know but I was definitely doing it and it got so much better once I stopped! Good luck :)
 
I would consider trying a different instructor tbh!! my mare can fight the contact at times but my instructor can talk me through it.. Don't know if it's any help but a good 30 mins of lateral work, turns on the forehand, shoulder fore, loads of circles etc helps soften my mare.
 
showpony said:
I would consider trying a different instructor tbh!! my mare can fight the contact at times but my instructor can talk me through it.. Don't know if it's any help but a good 30 mins of lateral work, turns on the forehand, shoulder fore, loads of circles etc helps soften my mare.
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Agree totally. The main thing that has helped my daughter is learning the ' harder' movements such as shoulder in, leg yielding and 10m circles moving out to 20m circles and then back in again, she has to soften her hands otherwise horse just can't do it. Other instructors have kept her on a constant 20m circle or walking squares which bored the horse rigid and ending up with daughter wanting to cut her right hand off. The harder movements have made her to really think about allowing with her hands without always worrying about being in an 'outline' which came naturally. Tonight just watched both of them perform a almost perfect canter leg yield in harmony with both horse and rider grinning. Keep going OP but feel the back end and forget the head. ( does that make sense lol ).
 
If you are struggling to keep your hands still then either looping your little fingers through a balance strap or the loops that go from the front of your saddle pad to the girth straps will really help you not to pull back on the reins.

Sometimes worrying too much about getting the horses head down can cause tension in you both and you will be focusing too much on your hands and not your legs and a light seat. Keeping your hands forward by looping through numnah straps will help you ride forwards into a steady contact and will help prevent you fighting with her.
A new instructor may really help as well as not seeing it as a fight and focusing more on getting her soft and relaxed rather than in an outline.
 
It's quite a skill to bring on a young horse so don't be so hard on yourself. If all amateur riders could produce the same results as professionals what would be the point of professionals?

Have you considered sending the mare to your instructor to bring on for a couple of months so that she becomes easier for you to rider? A young horse won't have developed the right muscles to work correctly and will be harder work to get going properly than one that has been trained into the right habits by a professional rider.
 
First of all thank you for your replies everybody, it really helps. I completely understand what you are saying about holding in to something whilst at the same time holding the reins, the only way in which I can get her onto the bit is by holding the saddle skirts too and then once I've established I try to move my hands forwards whilst keeping them steady and together as a pair but then after a few strides she realises and bang up goes the head....I then have to hold the inside rein to the saddle and sponge the outside rein to get her head back down and then we start again... Hope this makes some sense?? I do have to keep my hands quite low and far apart to have any effect, if I try to get a contact with my hands in the proper position just above withers and closer together, there's no way she'll even go into a contact! And Booboo's I'm glad you have said this because I know she is young and she hasn't done much at all, this is what my instructor tells me constantly and tells me to be happy as we are progressing, but I guess when I see her riding her with no fight I get kinda miffed lol. Then I get other people saying that the hands/reins should never be fixed, but that's all that works....for now! I'm hoping that once my mare is strong enough to hold the position then she won't fight me as much??!??
I say to myself all the time, stop focusing on getting her head in and just concentrate on keeping her balanced, don't worry about her head etc, but she feels completely different with her head stuck in the air and I don't like it. I have been told you ride her using a libbys lungie bungie until i get the feeling for how much of a contact I should have, ie: how it's supposed to feel in my hands....so I have been using this aid but she still fights that, I can feel her doing it.

My instructor has been riding her once a week, in the hope that she becomes easier to ride and knows what she should be doing. But I can't help think that this might be making the situation worse?
 
Having her schooled is unlikely to be making the situation worse but I'm not convinced about the fixed hand, either. This is a stage many riders have to go through to learn what it feels like but it doesn't foster an elastic contact, especially with a young horse struggling with the work.

It's very hard to find a balance between having an instructor you trust and getting the information you need. Generally I am not a fan of going to different people willy nilly but it might be, in this situation, another trainer could give you a different perspective.

You could also try something like Centered Riding on your own. It sounds to me like there is a balance or tension issue in your riding which quite likely has nothing to do with your hands, which is interfering with your ability to stay autonomous and give the horse a consistent feel
 
Hi, thanks yes, there is obviously something not right with my riding. I really like my instructor and I think she's really good, sensitive and sympathetic and she's not one of those to stick gadgets on either. It was somebody else I know who produces show ponies at a high level who suggested the lungie bungie and her who also told me not to use fixed hands, low and wide. Which is what my instructor does and what seems to work for my mare. It's so conflicting... :-/
 
I know exactly how you feel! You have just described my mare. I have had her for 3 years and she is now 10, I don't know her history only her breeding. I do know that about 2 weeks ago I got so frustrated that I stopped. By this I mean I stopped schooling her, I decided for the next 2/3 weeks I was just going to hack out, lunge and enjoy her. I felt like I was putting pressure on myself and her and decided to take the pressure off, have a break and then start again. Our 2 weeks are coming to an end and I will probably pop in the menage at weekend after a hack and just do 10 mins of schooling. I'm sorry this doesn't really help but I can empathize with you, good luck and keep at it xx
 
A couple of people have said I can ride their horse who knows the job which will help me get the feel.... Do you think this will help? All horses are different though and it's really MY horse that I need to know how to ride properly.
 
I am glad it's not just me then. She is my 3rd horse and before her I wasn't really bothered about the horse being in a contact or showing etc and just hacked and rode around, it's only since owning this mare that I want to start showing her as she has really good potential. She's only 5 so still a baby, think I need to stop putting so much pressure on us both! :-(
 
Well I am by no means an expert and it is difficult to give advice without seeing a video of the problem.

BUT- from your posts, it sounds like she just isn't at all connected from leg to hand and down both (or any) sides of the bridle.

Basically, whatever contact you provide (and it should/must be a consistent and elastic one she needs to work INTO) You PROVIDE and she SEEKS.

So I would start in walk (though this can sometimes be the hardest gait due to lack of momentum) forget everything else and just concentrate on having a steady and consistent outside rein. If you can, use a flash strap through the D-rings on your saddle and hold onto the flash strap with your outside hand and rein, just loop your fingers through. Stay soft and relaxed in your shoulder and elbow. Keep your inside rein too but do not pull back on it or use it to 'turn her' You should be turning her shoulders using your outside rein and leg. Focus on pushing her into that outside rein with your inside leg. If you have to, keep her on a 20 metre circle at one end of the school and just focus on this. Have almost a leg yield feel on the corners if you have to. Once you feel her drop into that outside rein (even slightly) praise using your voice, give a little more through your shoulder and elbow and push her up into trot, keep a relaxed shoulder and elbow and repeat in trot, carry on holding the flash strap at the front of the saddle (this will ensure you have a consistent outside rein) and keep pushing with that inside leg. Repeat on the other rein.

See if this exercise helps.

If she is evading the contact then you must keep pushing with the leg (though not rushing her out of her rhythm) and FOLLOWING her and keeping the contact wherever she is, so that she learns she can't drop you off it by doing a giraffe impression. I would hazard a guess that she probably isn't straight and perhaps falling out through her outside shoulders and isn't down your outside rein(s) so the above exercise should help with these two for now. Lateral work, shoulder fore, in, leg yield etc will all help but appreciate these are easier sometimes when you already have SOME sort of connection.
 
Germolene said:
A couple of people have said I can ride their horse who knows the job which will help me get the feel.... Do you think this will help? All horses are different though and it's really MY horse that I need to know how to ride properly.
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Very much! Take them up on it if you can. Even if the other horses don't do things perfectly they will have different strengths and weaknesses, and allow you to do some things more easily or show up faults more clearly.

Do you ever ride her immediately after your instructor? Can you ride any of the other horses after someone more experienced? This is a time honoured and invaluable way to develop correct feel.
 
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You know there is something not quite right with all of our riding that's why we all need help! Even Charlotte du Jardin has lessons from Carl Hester!

I would really recommend you let your trainer sort this problem out to make the horse more 'ridable' for you. Reverse what you are doing, i.e. let the trainer ride every day and you have a once a week lesson. Try it for 2-3 weeks and re-evaluate if it's not working but I bet you, you will see a difference.

My horses go to my instructor for 1-2 weeks schooling, especially if I am stuck, or if they need to learn something new - it makes a huge difference.
 
Is the horse lunged at all? This has made a big difference to my horse recently. (Although worth noting my horse is considerably older.)
 
I got into the habit of lunging her before I rode which helped her realised what we've been asking her to do....soften her neck, as it was so upside down and tensed....now that she can do it, albeit properly with another rider, I haven't been lunging as much as tbh it's not my favourite thing! Urrgghhh. And yes I have ridden her immediately after my instructor before and probably got 5 minutes of greatness then she realised it was me and up when her head again ha ha.
That's interesting perfect pirouette because I've been using the inside rein as the consistent contact and squeezing with the outside to get her to soften....but this is the only way I can get that head down, although I will def try the way you've suggested. My instructor just keeps her hands quite low and just infront of the saddle, keeps them very still, the reins look really slack but my horse doesn't even try to break free??? My instructor says it's a matter of balance mainly and that my horse is very nosey and easily distracted, or should I say she uses any excuse to be distracted ha ha.

I can walk without much fight, but once I push into trot it becomes a fight, and sometimes when she brings her head in its like she starts ploughing through it and speeds up, so them I have to slow her down which brings her head back up and then we start again ha ha.

I am really hoping this is just a normal stage that I'm going through...and that it will all click into place soon.

I was going to send her off to a British dressage trainer near me, Fiona Hulme her name is, but I wanted to get my horse further ahead before she went there, if that makes sense.
 
Germolene said:
I got into the habit of lunging her before I rode which helped her realised what we've been asking her to do....soften her neck, as it was so upside down and tensed....now that she can do it, albeit properly with another rider, I haven't been lunging as much as tbh it's not my favourite thing! Urrgghhh. And yes I have ridden her immediately after my instructor before and probably got 5 minutes of greatness then she realised it was me and up when her head again ha ha.
That's interesting perfect pirouette because I've been using the inside rein as the consistent contact and squeezing with the outside to get her to soften....but this is the only way I can get that head down, although I will def try the way you've suggested. My instructor just keeps her hands quite low and just infront of the saddle, keeps them very still, the reins look really slack but my horse doesn't even try to break free??? My instructor says it's a matter of balance mainly and that my horse is very nosey and easily distracted, or should I say she uses any excuse to be distracted ha ha.

I can walk without much fight, but once I push into trot it becomes a fight, and sometimes when she brings her head in its like she starts ploughing through it and speeds up, so them I have to slow her down which brings her head back up and then we start again ha ha.

I am really hoping this is just a normal stage that I'm going through...and that it will all click into place soon.

I was going to send her off to a British dressage trainer near me, Fiona Hulme her name is, but I wanted to get my horse further ahead before she went there, if that makes sense.
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The outside rein should always be consistent, you should be able to 'bring her back' with half halts through your outside rein. The inside rein should indicate direction, you can flex and have gentle squeezes down it (or even take a big flex if need be but these should be forward and maybe wide, but not back) If you flex her too much from the inside rein and have no outside rein, then she will just fall out through that outside shoulder which is where all your problems will start.

Does she go well for you in your lesson with your instructor present? If not, then I would be looking at a different instructor. Preferably a dressage one. Yes, it could be a case of sending her off to a pro to do some of the work, but it may be that you just need a different instructor.
 
I just don't know how much I should be feeling in my hands, ie; how much weight. And because she isn't consistently in an outline, the reins go tight then slack which confuses me even more lol
 
Yup it is a bit of a mine field, the holding onto a flash strap will really help you though with that because it'll force YOU to be consistent and then when she isn't and it goes slack, leg, leg until she seeks it forward again. If she gets too heavy (it should be as my instructor says 'a baby lean') again, more (probably) inside leg.

You need to take a contact and think 'right, whatever she does, I will keep this EXACT same contact' if she snakes her head, it's hard to explain but try to 'follow' her wherever she is going whilst pushing with the leg. You need to be able to feel both sides of the bit at all times if that makes sense.

I ride a horse who is the trickiest horse I have ever ridden in terms of contact, he has a very 'snakey' neck and will bop up, down, anywhere and drop you off it any which way he can, fall out through his shoulders, ANYTHING to get off his hind leg. It is frustrating but we are getting there, but I HAVE to ensure I KEEP a contact and when he drops me, leg, leg until I feel him where I need/want him again. It is a long process but he is getting much better and much more consistent. The rider NEEDS to be consistent though.
 
Ok well I've had some good feedback here...I will deffo attach a flash to the d rings and hold that and see if that helps. I have plenty of experienced people around me, which in one essence is good but then I find there's a lot of confliction too. I can't complain either because my instructor won't take any money off me for schooling her....think she likes her! Lol
 
I am in the same situation as you but dont give up as i am slowly getting there and you will too! I totally 110% agree with Perfect Pirouette. I have my 4 year old at my instructors yard at the moment for help. I had the same problem as you and even though I thought I was having still hands and sitting quietly, i was actually blocking my arms and movement. What i was doing was i was concentrating soo hard on keeping my hands still and light that I was tensing them up and therefore blocking the contact and elasticitly between my arms and the reins through my elbow. My instructor has given me exactly the same advice as perfect piroutte has said. Have a constant feel down the outside rein but keep elastic at the elbow so you dont fix or block the movement, then sponge on the inside rein to encourage roundess BUT... the other big thing i wasnt doing either was backing up with my leg. I was asking him to come round but not driving his engine forward from behind. Its really hard to do and think about all at the same time but by keep doing this and repeating it we are getting there now :D My instructor is forever telling me when i lose contact in my out side or when i start to fix and block my contact on the inside rein ( it must be annoying her now she has to remind me soo much but i do it subconciously so i need reminding). My instructor has also got me to ride her horses too to practice my contact on which has helped greatly so i would recommend riding other horses too. It helped me feel how they should be in my hand and then when i rode my horse i could feel when the contact was right. Keep persevering and good luck
 
This sounds just like my share horse. JUST like her. We would just fight. But it takes two to tango and once I stopped giving her something to fight against it helped.

I have been reading and reading and its really helped me. I've read centred riding by sally swift (really really old copy off eBay for £3 but its been invaluable) and Phillipe Karl's book. They were the most helpful books. With a bit of Sylvia loch thrown in (books and dvd's).

But the breakthrough came after reading this post!!!

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...dvice-A-must-read-I-feel!&highlight=Balancing

You cannot hold her head in. Dressage isn't about getting their head down (which you've said and I was mostly concerned about until quite recently, despite kidding myself I wasn't) it's about getting them in bakance. It just so happens that when they are in balance they are on the bit, which people think means get their head down.

The reading I have fine has helped me to understand what we're trying to achieve and why, but the how - where to start - came from the balancing act thread!!!

We are by no means there. But we are getting there. Much much more. We can get stretchy trot and on and back and she isn't fighting or pulling my arms out with her ears in my face. I am very aware of my position and carrying my hands (they're still too low, I drop my left hand and fix it, she pulls against it) and video my riding as much as possible. She has a very very sensitive mouth and allowing her forward means she seeks the contact. I'm just learning but riding this tricky mare is teaching me how to ride. I've done it all without an instructor as I can't afford to share and lessons.
 
Germolene said:
I just don't know how much I should be feeling in my hands, ie; how much weight. And because she isn't consistently in an outline, the reins go tight then slack which confuses me even more lol
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That could be the problem - if you take then drop the contact she will be confused as to what you are asking. As far as weight goes when I was shown how much it should be I was quite astounded. Initially you may need quite a bit of contact but as you both become more consistent it can soften. But the aim should be not to have the contact drop off completely at all.

Another thing to look at is are you bending you elbows? If your arms are straight you will lose your elasticity and it will result in the contact being dropped. If your elbows are bent you can move with the movement more...

The line should be from bit, hand to elbow. Having straight arms upsets this line and can even change the position of the bit in the mouth is some cases. Look at pictures of horses working correctly and you will always see the rider has a bend in the elbow. Ones where the horse isn't tends to have riders with straight arms.

Here you have Andreas Helgstrand with quite a soft contact

388-Frie-Andreas-Helgstrand-Honnerups-Driver.jpg
 
Hey...well I used to ride with straight arms, I saw a video of me and was like omg! Ha ha. So I've taught myself to have bent elbows, which I do now no probs. I actually rode a friends horse this evening and after 5 mins of getting the feel and him getting used to me vice versa, we had a very good ride and I could keep him in an outline which felt amazing! BUT he knows the job much more than my fizzy 5yo. She said I can use him for lessons and she will also ride my horse as she did the other day and of course she didn't fight as much for her! Lol. I guess I'm so busy making sure my mare actually is going the right way and being straight and balanced and etc etc etc that it's just too much for me to deal with at once lol, and I get very frustrated which doesn't help. I am sure we will get there. I really appreciate all of your responses, it helps me a lot!x
 
Hey, just thought I would give a quick update!! Since riding my friends horse, I have managed to keep Nikki in a contact without and fighting! I can even push my hands forward and have them quite high, rather than low and wide! It feels so much better, I do have to play with the reins quite a bit though which him told it quite normal for a young horse....hopefully onwards and upwards now!! :-)
 
Wow, that was a quick fix!!! What worked so fast for you?
Germolene said:
Hey, just thought I would give a quick update!! Since riding my friends horse, I have managed to keep Nikki in a contact without and fighting! I can even push my hands forward and have them quite high, rather than low and wide! It feels so much better, I do have to play with the reins quite a bit though which him told it quite normal for a young horse....hopefully onwards and upwards now!! :-)
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