Frustrated! Young problematic horse.

Brightbay said:
No behaviourist would recommend this, which is why I think it would be very useful for OP to speak to a qualified behaviourist - they would be able to explain why the current management of the horse is contributing to the problem. They will also be able to work with the vet if there are health issues.
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That's exactly what I wondered.
 
Thanks for replies everyone.

I decided to purchase Rescue Remedy, Valerian and Camomile today to try with him, however when I arrived at yard tonight he was considerably calmer but I decided to start the herbal route tonight anyway and see if they have any significant effect in the short-term.

A stable mirror is already on it's way, hopefully arriving tomorrow.

I have contacted numerous professionals, since, throughout and currently all his life since he returned from surgery, (vets, behaviourists, physios, dentists etc) He has been examined from head to toe and all ok physically. He is in great body condition (not fat by any standards, just nicely covered), lovely shine to coat etc. I have not been advised by any professional at any stage that his management is detrimental or should be altered.

His issues are psychological. He becomes consumed by anything he interprets as potentially stressful. The desensitising work he had done by Pro. Trainer was extremely impressive and they came highly recommended by Professionals competing at levels us mere mortals can only dream of.

At this stage, handling him on the ground requires a bridle, chain and schooling whip. He loves the chain, as soon as he sees it he is straight over to have it put on. It is his 'safety blanket' so to speak. Rub him all over with the whip and he rests a hindleg, goes doey eyed and has a snooze.....when he is in his 'comfort zone'.

Take him out of his comfort zone (anything he perceives as potentially stressful) and without that chain he would be impossible. He is NOT scared of it, he respects it, but heck....keeping his mind on 'planet Earth' even with the chain can be extremely hard work.

He has spent months being led with calm 'babysitters', slow introductions, basically 'anything and everything' has been tried and tested (apart from Herbal route and stable mirror, which happening atm). Nothing worked.

The only one who has achieved any result was the Pro. Trainer, (my choice of Trainer was carefully deliberated). The advice is for him to remain in any stressful situation until he fully accepts it, otherwise stress/anxiety is the 'go to' response, which means he never learns to cope. It is the ONLY technique that has helped him.

He is 4 this year and will be 4 (give or take a few weeks) when he is backed. I deliberately left backing until his 4th year to allow for him to mature physically re: spinal growths plates. The rider is lightweight who will back him and so am I.

Every possible alternative route has been explored to no avail. I could 100% confirm turning him away for another year wouldn't make a blind bit of difference.

For poster who asked his bloodlines include Demonstrator, Criminal Law, Fleetwater Opposition, Cavalier Royale.
 
Also, use of the chain is not over the nose or used to tug on the bit. It is used to rattle the chain upwards in a manner that does not involve the bit. I have no desire for my youngster to develop a 'hard mouth'.

The bit is an extra control precaution and only receives significant pressure if he rears or attempts to bolt.

Not a fan of abuse!
 
Illusion100 said:
Thanks for replies everyone.

I decided to purchase Rescue Remedy, Valerian and Camomile today to try with him, however when I arrived at yard tonight he was considerably calmer but I decided to start the herbal route tonight anyway and see if they have any significant effect in the short-term.

A stable mirror is already on it's way, hopefully arriving tomorrow.

I have contacted numerous professionals, since, throughout and currently all his life since he returned from surgery, (vets, behaviourists, physios, dentists etc) He has been examined from head to toe and all ok physically. He is in great body condition (not fat by any standards, just nicely covered), lovely shine to coat etc. I have not been advised by any professional at any stage that his management is detrimental or should be altered.

His issues are psychological. He becomes consumed by anything he interprets as potentially stressful. The desensitising work he had done by Pro. Trainer was extremely impressive and they came highly recommended by Professionals competing at levels us mere mortals can only dream of.

At this stage, handling him on the ground requires a bridle, chain and schooling whip. He loves the chain, as soon as he sees it he is straight over to have it put on. It is his 'safety blanket' so to speak. Rub him all over with the whip and he rests a hindleg, goes doey eyed and has a snooze.....when he is in his 'comfort zone'.

Take him out of his comfort zone (anything he perceives as potentially stressful) and without that chain he would be impossible. He is NOT scared of it, he respects it, but heck....keeping his mind on 'planet Earth' even with the chain can be extremely hard work.

He has spent months being led with calm 'babysitters', slow introductions, basically 'anything and everything' has been tried and tested (apart from Herbal route and stable mirror, which happening atm). Nothing worked.

The only one who has achieved any result was the Pro. Trainer, (my choice of Trainer was carefully deliberated). The advice is for him to remain in any stressful situation until he fully accepts it, otherwise stress/anxiety is the 'go to' response, which means he never learns to cope. It is the ONLY technique that has helped him.

He is 4 this year and will be 4 (give or take a few weeks) when he is backed. I deliberately left backing until his 4th year to allow for him to mature physically re: spinal growths plates. The rider is lightweight who will back him and so am I.

Every possible alternative route has been explored to no avail. I could 100% confirm turning him away for another year wouldn't make a blind bit of difference.

For poster who asked his bloodlines include Demonstrator, Criminal Law, Fleetwater Opposition, Cavalier Royale.
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Sounds more like shutting down than comfort zone. I can not see how a horse can learn to accept stress being shut in on its own, studies on horses travelling have shown that horses that exhibit the least signs of stress are often very stressed with increased heart rates.
I have a brood mare that has been traumatised, hates to be caught but will 'give up' when cornered so that she can be seen by the vet, wormed, and have her feet trimmed but you can see from her pulse she is totally freaked out. She has 'learned to accept' that she will be caught but in no way can this be viewed as a positive experience for her.
She is managed in a small herd situation where she knows her place and is handled as quietly and as little as possible, with a set routine. I know you want to ride this horse eventually but sometimes what we want is at odds with what the horse needs.
 
I would ignore everything this professional trainer says tbh. I may only be a mere mortal but I am not the one with a problem horse... Why ask for advice and then tell everyone they are wrong? After all you are the one with a problem horse and asking for advice...

Sorry to be blunt but I feel really sorry for your horse. Establishing a routine with a few minutes stabled several times a day, and maybe feeding in the stable, would be far more kind than 'flooding' your horse and causing him to shut down - which is what you are going to do.

You may have a calm horse at the end of it but he will be a shut down horse, doing things because he has to, rather than he wants to :(

Fwiw - this mere mortal has backed 7 youngsters from start to finish and only had issues with one - solved by turning him away and bringing him back at 5. And this did work - he came back into work a different animal - willing and eager to please rather than the stress head he was at 4.

I have also backed a rescue TB who was that bad that no one could get near her. She refused to be stabled and would try to jump out initially. I introduced her slowly to the stable - feeding her outside the doorway with the door shut, in the doorway, in the stable with the door open, in the stable with the door shut, then finally increasing the time left in the stable. Never once did I consider leaving her in there stressed and if anyone had suggested it they would have gone rapidly down in my estimations...

There are ways to do things with kindness and there are ways to do things by taking a horses personality away and causing them to shut down - I know which way I would not consider :(

Please rethink how you manage your poor horse x
 
Turn the poor thing out and handle him every day from the field, bring him in for a feed, take him a walk, lunge him, anything to entertain him rather than trying to drill him. Proper work can come when he (and you) are in a calmer frame of mind. You're blowing his mind by over complicating matters. Seriously, it could just be that he's too sharp a youngster for you.

I had one like this as a 2yo and and nearly 20 years later he's still just as sharp and not as straight forward as most younger horses. No behaviorist, nose chain or been shut in will change him nor would I want it too.
 
honetpot said:
Sounds more like shutting down than comfort zone. I can not see how a horse can learn to accept stress being shut in on its own, studies on horses travelling have shown that horses that exhibit the least signs of stress are often very stressed with increased heart rates.
I have a brood mare that has been traumatised, hates to be caught but will 'give up' when cornered so that she can be seen by the vet, wormed, and have her feet trimmed but you can see from her pulse she is totally freaked out. She has 'learned to accept' that she will be caught but in no way can this be viewed as a positive experience for her.
She is managed in a small herd situation where she knows her place and is handled as quietly and as little as possible, with a set routine. I know you want to ride this horse eventually but sometimes what we want is at odds with what the horse needs.
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You have the wrong perception, this is difficult as specific situations can be very difficult to convey via typing.
 
Illusion100 said:
You have the wrong perception, this is difficult as specific situations can be very difficult to convey via typing.
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I believe they have the right perception. what the OP is doing to the horse has been proven not to work... The horse is the proof of that. The post you are calling wrong is a very valid alternative and far more likely to work than what the op is doing.

Rather than just calling someone wrong why not clarify why you feel they are wrong and offer an alternative? A post like that has no substance and no value...
 
Explained back story and asked if anyone else had been in my shoes and how they managed to stay sane dealing with such a horse. Different than asking on advice on what to do.

I hope I certainly did not, or ever meant to imply, that any advice given is not heeded.

Thank you for your credentials.
 
Illusion100 said:
Explained back story and asked if anyone else had been in my shoes and how they managed to stay sane dealing with such a horse. Different than asking on advice on what to do.

I hope I certainly did not, or ever meant to imply, that any advice given is not heeded.

Thank you for your credentials.
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Yes I have and dealt with it successfully without flooding or shutting down the horse as described above
 
lastchancer said:
Turn the poor thing out and handle him every day from the field, bring him in for a feed, take him a walk, lunge him, anything to entertain him rather than trying to drill him. Proper work can come when he (and you) are in a calmer frame of mind. You're blowing his mind by over complicating matters. Seriously, it could just be that he's too sharp a youngster for you.

I had one like this as a 2yo and and nearly 20 years later he's still just as sharp and not as straight forward as most younger horses. No behaviorist, nose chain or been shut in will change him nor would I want it too.
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I agree with this.
 
Illusion100 said:
Chain over nose has not been used (explained above). Could I ask, if this horse had suffered an injury and required 2 months box rest, what would you advise that's different from the situation he is in now?
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I would never box rest a horse for 2 months. If the injury is that serious that the horse cannot move for two months I be considering PTS. Horses are designed to move by restricting this important process you are serious impending their heath (gut, feet, mental well being for eg).
 
Thank you everyone for all your suggestions, input and opinions. It is greatly appreciated.

It is horrible to have a beautiful young horse traumatised by abusive handling by a vet practice and then, as the owner, try your utmost to do the right thing in the aftermath caused.

Again, many comments have been informative and thank you again for taking the time to respond.
 
Not sure if it is available where you are but have a look at this: http://www.connectedriding.com it might help.
I won a competition and my gelding spent a week with Peggy and came back able to self relax himself, before he used to stress and couldn't bring himself back down.
It wasn't magic but over time he turned into a lovely chilled boy.
 
My mare who is have been sadly traumatised, was a foster brood mare from Ireland. Her foal was euthanized and then she was sedated to travel to a stud farm to foster a very well bred TB foal. Her owner wondered if not only the loss of her natural foal but the amount of sedation she was given over a long period had affected her.
You will never know what happened at the vets but perhaps drugs could have played apart, it would perhaps an idea to find out what he was given. Large doses of steroids are known to cause mood changes in humans which can be extreme.
 
honetpot said:
Sounds more like shutting down than comfort zone. I can not see how a horse can learn to accept stress being shut in on its own, studies on horses travelling have shown that horses that exhibit the least signs of stress are often very stressed with increased heart rates.
I have a brood mare that has been traumatised, hates to be caught but will 'give up' when cornered so that she can be seen by the vet, wormed, and have her feet trimmed but you can see from her pulse she is totally freaked out. She has 'learned to accept' that she will be caught but in no way can this be viewed as a positive experience for her.
She is managed in a small herd situation where she knows her place and is handled as quietly and as little as possible, with a set routine. I know you want to ride this horse eventually but sometimes what we want is at odds with what the horse needs.
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Exactly :)
OP has quite clearly described a horse who has learned to shut down, until they are so over threshold that they explode. This can be dealt with, but not with a horse who is not turned out, does not have free access to calm equine company and who is handled and managed as described.
 
maccachic said:
I would never box rest a horse for 2 months. If the injury is that serious that the horse cannot move for two months I be considering PTS. Horses are designed to move by restricting this important process you are serious impending their heath (gut, feet, mental well being for eg).
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I think that's an awful view to take .
I have had horses on box rest for long periods nine months I think was the longest and the horse went on to have a completely normal life after .
It's a skill managing box rest I was lucky when young to work with people who put a high premium on these skills .
It's hard work though for the people doing the care it's takes longer per day to do a horse on box rest properly than a horse in work .
 
Because of the weather you could say that four have mine have been on box rest, but as they are in a barn together apart from the 'young prince' who has his own section, they seem to suffer no ill effects, they have an unlimited supply of forage and companionship.
My friends horse has been on box rest for 2-3months in a field shelter that opens on to a small yard where his companion is for most of the day, so they can eat together and have a good scratch. He has just been allowed out on the concrete yard so now his field mate is kept in a small section of paddock just in front so they share hay nets.
Last year I got a rescue yearling off the welsh hills and for the first 2 months he had to be in because he was in such a poor state. All my stables have half walls so you put another next door or on the yard in front so they are never alone and establish a routine. Although wild and nervous because he had never been handled he now is almost normal in his handling, but this was a different kind of fear which most unhandled animals seem to be able to overcome if handled quietly and not over stressed.
I know its a bit off the subject but horses do not naturally live in caves, they run away from things they are scared of and stand away from it and most normal horses seek the company of others for security. I just think shutting a horse in a box on its own does not make any sense, but I would be interested in the theory of why anyone would think that if should.
 
Illusion100 said:
Explained back story and asked if anyone else had been in my shoes and how they managed to stay sane dealing with such a horse. Different than asking on advice on what to do.

I hope I certainly did not, or ever meant to imply, that any advice given is not heeded.

Thank you for your credentials.
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I've read this thread, quietly agreed with most posters and despaired that every alternative is pooh-poohed.

You know why people are answering giving suggestions? It's because what you're doing will never work on this particular horse. In fact, I'd go as far to say that what you're doing will make the horse a lot worse and you'll eventually be unable to handle him at all.

The reason you're not getting the answers that say "Carry on as you're doing, you're heading in the right direction. I was in exactly the same position but I plugged on with the same thing that hadn't worked for months/years then suddenly the horse changed totally and I was left with a golden example of horse saintliness" is because it hasn't and isn't going to happen!
 
9tails - they are following the advice of a well known trainer. I actually wonder whether this is true - as no sane person would actually recommend that regime in this day and age. But OP (with her unmanageable horse) knows best...

OP have you considered selling the horse and getting another that is already backed maybe? Have you considered that if you can't manage the horse unbacked, it is only going to be worse when ridden :(
 
RE the box rest question. I don't believe that confining an already stressed horse in this way is the same as box resting a horse with an injury that must have it's movement restricted. When my grey injured her tendon she was in an electric fenced area in the field. This worked for her as she'd have been frantic in the stable and that wouldn't have helped her injury, but she was calm and happy in her pen, so the leg healed. Box rest doesn't have to be in a stable.

Ester - are you suggesting that he should be PTS if he continues to be so distressed all the time, or that it's inhumane to add to his stress by stabling him in that way?

OP - I really do hope that you find the key to helping your horse, I just don't think that you're on the right path at the moment.
 
I've got a young stressy mare and I've worked with Ben Hart with great success. Positive reinforcement based training, no flooding allowed at all, owner educated about the science of behaviour and learning (equine and human). Gave me the tools I needed to manage her successfully.

I highly recommend him.
 
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