Frustrated! Young problematic horse.

If he continues to be so distressed all of the time and no situation could be found in which he improved, or at least started to improve I think I would consider PTS - ie if he could go and live in a field full time in an established herd with minimal necessary contact and was better that would be fine- if whatever you do he paces fence/stable etc he is either in pain (physical/mental) or making himself ill that cannot be any life for him and I would consider PTS - that isn't from a hho put everything down perspective honest and I would be doing my darndest to help him first (living conditions or behaviouralists, training etc) and obviously it would then be a judgement call. It just seems a long time since the initial veterinary treatment for him to be in the sort of state he is currently.
 
As many people have already said, the current recommended course of action is highly likely to make the situation much worse, possibly to the point of no return. The horse already has a coping mechanism for stress - it has developed a marked pacing stereotypy. Stressing it further will exacerbate that or may lead to a total shutdown - a condition known as 'learned helplessness'. There seem to be lots of suggestions for trainers with a good understanding of animal behaviour, and I will add Debbie Marsden and graduates of hers to the list - http://www.debbiemarsden.co.uk/. She is a scientist who has worked in the field of animal behaviour for many years, and so has an exceptional understanding of problems and their solutions.
 
soloequestrian said:
The horse already has a coping mechanism for stress - it has developed a marked pacing stereotypy. Stressing it further will exacerbate that or may lead to a total shutdown - a condition known as 'learned helplessness'.
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I suspect that is the state the OP's trainer is aiming for. Is it a Parelli trainer OP? I bet it blooming is.
 
the first thing that comes to mind is if the pro trainer is so right in their approach, why have you not made any progress with the horse? does the fact that 90% of the opinion on here is completely opposite to that of the pro trainer not make you wonder if a different approach may be more beneficial? determinedly carrying on the route you are taking sounds like a recipe for disaster, backing a horse who is already stressed is not going to calm him down but quite likely push him over the edge! i just hope the person backing him has adequate insurance to cover them in their months off work after this poor horse has freaked out and bolted or thrown himself over backwards!
 
lastchancer said:
I suspect that is the state the OP's trainer is aiming for.
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Bingo. The trainer has wrapped it up in the 'learning to deal with his stress' rubbish.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness

The dog experiments remind me of that Mexican trainer who was on FHOTD for throwing plastic chairs at his horse until it gave up and just stood there as it was smacked repeatedly with the chairs.
 
I would think that some time out in a field, then some time with someone like Jason Webb would be what the horse needs
 
Goldenstar said:
Tbh I would is this was my issue to deal with .
I would let him come in at night with the other horses and turn out with them , so establish a good calm settled routine .
The other horses are out and come in only briefly then that's what I would do with him.
He needs the company of a couple of sensible adult horses to learn from.
I would just chip away at the handling in tiny steps .
I would take a book and read it in his stable ( might wait for better weather for this).
You need to get him through this before backing in considered and you will need to choose the person who does it with extreme care.
But the first thing I would do is invest in some gastroguard and I would prepared to for him to be kept on it a while at a lower dose ( one quarter tube a day seems to work well ) if you get a good result from the full dosage .
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This^
Well Goldenstar, we finally agree on something!!
 
Faracat said:
Bingo. The trainer has wrapped it up in the 'learning to deal with his stress' rubbish.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness

The dog experiments remind me of that Mexican trainer who was on FHOTD for throwing plastic chairs at his horse until it gave up and just stood there as it was smacked repeatedly with the chairs.
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Oh god, that's just awful. Bloody moron.
 
Illusion100 said:
His issues are psychological. He becomes consumed by anything he interprets as potentially stressful. The desensitising work he had done by Pro. Trainer was extremely impressive and they came highly recommended by Professionals competing at levels us mere mortals can only dream of.
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Please don't rule out gastric or hind gut ulcers suggested which often make horses very explosive or nervous. Leaving aside any handling issues at the vets or trainers he will probably have been stressed from the change of environment and stress is a big cause of ulcers.
Perhaps also look at whether a mineral supplement is needed? Hay/haylage and grass often don't provide enough or balanced minerals.

Just don't think you should close your mind to possible physical issues as a basic problem from the history you have written.
 
I think some of the replies on this thread are quite harsh and unnecesary- some downright dangerous. If you read through the OP's posts, it does seem that she has explored many avenues. This horse has had plenty of time turned away- in fact most of his life, which has not helped.

I understand the use of the bridle and chain in that it is safer, but it is not going to solve any problems in the long run.

OP- I do really feel for you, it seems that you are trying to do your best for this horse. It also sounds that he does have serious and deep routed behaviour problems, which are not pleasant to have to deal with, especially as an amatuer doing this as a hobby.

I have to say, I also don't agree with the route that your trainer is going down in locking your horse in a stable is going to help. I understand the reasoning that you have given and I still don't agree.

Are there particular scenarios that your boy struggles the most with? What does he do? Is he in a constant state of stress?

I don't think I would even consider backing him yet in this state- sounds like an accident waiting to happen.

I feel for you OP.

ETA- I also agree that a gastro guard trial would be very beneficial.
 
Goldenstar makes some very helpful suggestions, although, taking a book into the stable might not be a great idea if he is 'stressed' and throwing himself around!

I do understand what the trainer is trying to achieve but it does not seem form your post that they have given you a way in which to reward him should he settle and de-stress!! Having worked on behavioural issues with a very good trainer (no more issues) and having seen her help others, I know that sometimes what she has said has been taken literally as in 'it must be done every day, week, etc.,' when that is not the case, 'it takes as long as it takes' and if it takes less time, then you do not continue to push it! My feeling is that the only thing he is learning right now is containment and that he will have no concept that he needs to behave before he is released as small releases (rewarding the try) don't happen - no matter how he behaves, he is stuck in prison - he won't know that there is a set period of time he just wants to escape! Would it be worth asking the trainer if, when he settles, you could take him out of the stable, for some grass or even just to roll in an outdoor or indoor school or something, building it up as the 'good behaviour' increases - by providing a reward/release for 'good behaviour' which, if this is done over a constant period of time (a few hours or a few days and building) - he should start to associate quiet 'good behaviour' with getting out and about; which, hopefully, would lead to you being seen as his releaser rather than his prison guard! Horses live in the now so he will have forgotten all about the 'treatment' at the Vets but you haven't and, by locking him up for a 'set in stone' prescribed time, you are putting a lot of pressure on your horse and yourself to have it fixed by then!

I am with others on this forum, I would not sit (or allow others to sit) on this horse as it could likely explode leaving someone with a loss of income!

Please, please read (or watch) Buck Brannaman, Buster McLaury, Mark Rashid or Kathleen Lindley and find a way to work with, rather than 'punish'.
 
kirstie said:
If you read through the OP's posts, it does seem that she has explored many avenues. This horse has had plenty of time turned away- in fact most of his life, which has not helped.
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Just wanted to go back to OP's first post...
.
Illusion100 said:
Bought as a weanling, gelded at year and a half and now 3 yrs old.

He had an OCD lesion removed at 8 months old and prospects for athletic career good/excellent.

Before going to vet practice you could do anything with him, very sweet and willing to do anything with patience and understanding. The only aspect was that he could get a little fearful now and then, but a simple 5 seconds to realise no-on else was panicking, he was the willing to give it a go.

36 hours at vet practice later....returned a hat rack, extremely angry and fearful.
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Similar weight loss etc. happened at the trainers yard. Lack of turnout may have been part of the cause though.

In this case my feeling is yes handing/training is part of the solution but managing the horse in a consistent way he finds the least stressful has to be the foundation along with treating possible ulcers (if not addressed already). Putting him on box rest may eventually break him but how much stress, physically and mentally, will this approach cause him?
We can't separate the mind and body in my opinion, all aspects have to be addressed.
 
I do wish to add that the horse has only been in the stable for 4 days. He has not been stuck in a box for weeks on end and I'm wondering 'Oooh wonder why he is hyper and unhappy?!' He is already improving considerably and am pleased with his progress in such a short time period.

He is stabled next to a calm horse, so he has constant company. He is eating and drinking well. In no way shape or form has this horse 'shut down'. When he becomes stressed in stable he is ignored, when he settles again he is given attention. He is learning that a calmer state of mind earns him attention and a stressed outlook achieves nothing.

He is a typical 3 yr old in many ways. Has to investigate everything that's going on, plays with grooming brushes, likes having stable rubber draped over his head etc.

He actually has a very sweet personality and is very affectionate. However the trauma he experienced has been so detrimental because he is very intelligent and sensitive.

Same as everyone else, you know your horse. You listen to advice, opinions and experiences of others....BUT, that doesn't mean it is right for your horse. Having spoken to numerous trainers/behaviourist I KNEW immediately that the Trainer he went to was right for him.

The option if having PTS is not going to happen. As many posters advised, he was turned away and has had plenty of time 'just to be a horse', it is now time for him to start his education. He will not be rushed or forced to do anything, when the time comes and if a decision is made to delay backing then that will happen.

He is the most challenging horse I have come across, not due to him, but traumatic handling by individuals you would expect to treat your horse with care and compassion. I am not a Novice owner or rider and don't feel I should have to justify following advice I trust, that has previously worked 100%, in the very early stages him coming into his stable.

My op was to identify difficulties and enquire if anyone had experienced similar and how did they cope. Not please pass judgement on a horse you have never seen or handled and criticise anything you don't agree with.

I am just the same as everyone else. A person who loves their horse and wants the best for it. There is no plan to leave this horse in a stable full time and at the rate he is improving and settling, I am confident he will progress to field in day/stabled at night by weekend.

For the poster who asked, no Parelli training involved.
 
There is no attention to 'break' him regarding stabling him. He is already much better, much calmer, more relaxed and 'back to his old self', so to speak as in a curious, affectionate little lad.

He has not lost any condition this time around, so his previous experience at Trainers yard seems to have been very beneficial in this regard. He is eating like a Gannet (perfectly normal for him when he is relaxed!).

A vet friend is always just a phone call away and no concerns of ulcers expressed even though topic has been discussed to length.

He is playing with wheelbarrow etc and generally being a typical 3 yr old atm. He certainly seems to have realised being relaxed is much better than being stressed when in his stable.
 
kirstie said:
I think some of the replies on this thread are quite harsh and unnecesary- some downright dangerous. If you read through the OP's posts, it does seem that she has explored many avenues. This horse has had plenty of time turned away- in fact most of his life, which has not helped.

I understand the use of the bridle and chain in that it is safer, but it is not going to solve any problems in the long run.

OP- I do really feel for you, it seems that you are trying to do your best for this horse. It also sounds that he does have serious and deep routed behaviour problems, which are not pleasant to have to deal with, especially as an amatuer doing this as a hobby.

I have to say, I also don't agree with the route that your trainer is going down in locking your horse in a stable is going to help. I understand the reasoning that you have given and I still don't agree.

Are there particular scenarios that your boy struggles the most with? What does he do? Is he in a constant state of stress?

I don't think I would even consider backing him yet in this state- sounds like an accident waiting to happen.

I feel for you OP.

ETA- I also agree that a gastro guard trial would be very beneficial.
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Hi, the bridle and chain are not and never intended to be a long term solution. At this stage purely safety precautions. He struggles with an awful lot of things and have chased my tail trying every method.

I do appreciate that the approach I have been advised is not conventional but it worked before and is working now, even after 4 days. Extreme behaviour sometimes needs an extreme approach. I do not however recommend that this is done with any horse without careful consideration and detailed history given, but it is working for my boy when everything else failed. I refuse to give up on him when he is such a lovely horse deep down.

The trainer would in no way back him if he wasn't ready. Very blunt, to the point and knows their stuff.

Thanks for being compassionate, there is defo a light at the end of the tunnel. It's just a very long tunnel!
 
Well put - if it works, it works and what works for some horses does not work for all. Glad to hear he is settling down and, as you say, a short term measure to ensure your safety is often needed because, if you get hurt, who continues on with the good work! My boy is now 12 but I had a number of years of trouble before I met a trainer who told me that I needed to be firm, but fair and, in his case, it worked - he is now a super lad and every day when I ride out, I think how lucky I am to have him!! Here's to you for not giving up!
 
I wrote a reply to this earlier today at work but then the site crashed (or my phone did!).

I haven't read the additional responses since this afternoon but from scanning it sounds like he's calmed a bit.

However, just to add my 10pence worth (you probably have had enough by now! :) )

I do not think shutting a horse in a stable is going to ease his stresses and I certainly would have turned out and, to be honest just left him be for a bit. I think sometimes e can do too much with them as we feel we must.

I have been through similar-ish with my youngster who I bought as a 15mth old. Without going in to the full (long) details, I had a fair bit of help from someone to assist with his groundwork and it has really helped me understand him a lot more - turns out he's much more of a sensitive soul than he makes out!

The lady who helped me has done training with Andrew McLean (although she uses various techniques in addition to this). It may be worth your while getting in touch with someone from this sort of background/training as they will break everything down and teach you how to control your horse's behaviour and things such as his flight response etc. Mine relaxes so much more when he realises someone is in control of what he is doing!

I certainly don't think a horse can learn to "manage his stress". The horse is a flight/prey animal so shutting them in a box is not going to help an already stressed horse.
 
Im struggling to understand to idea behind this? Your horse is to stay in his stable until he relaxes. Once he accepts he'll be stabled and appears relaxed, you are then going to introduce t/o. Will he not go straight back to stressing again in his stable, once he's had his freedom back? If he does, does he then stay in his stable until he looks relaxed again, or once he's allowed out do you continue with him going out in the day in at night regardless?

Do you do any bonding with him? I play loads of games with my lads and they will happily follow me around, if im leading them and they get scared by something, they tend to hide behind me or freeze and wait until i walk them past it, they wouldnt bolt off, they trust me. I cant imagine wanting to ride a horse that doesnt trust you.
 
He sounds like a very unhappy boy I am sure you are happy to follow your trainers view but it does seem very strange to expect a flight animal to de stress while he is effectively trapped in a box. I have a pony on livery with me who is very sensitive and reactive She has lived with me all her life it is her temperament that makes her sharp and worried so she is turned out 24/7 is fed in the field and stroked and fussed on her terms. She is super to ride although was 6 before she was ridden regularly backed at 4 and a half and turned away again She has been stabled but is much happier out with the others. She is now confident and happy to hack out alone and in company is absolutely the perfect pony but she is a one person pony. Her new owner has been on holiday for three weeks and although I have been looking after her all her life she missed her girl and has been a real diva refusing to be caught to have her rugs sorted and generally being a pain, her girl arrived back yesterday and she is in seventh heaven. My point being that maybe your boy needs one to one with just you for a while. Get him out into his field with other horses and spend as much time just you and him bonding and helping him feel secure in your presence so he has faith in at least one consistent human so no trainers no vets no other interference no pressure to do anything at all until he is happy with it. If you feel his confinement is helping then only you go near him and only you do him and only you spend time with him.
 
Hi all, my boy is doing great. Much more relaxed and other liveries have informed me that he has been very chilled when they have been sorting their horses/yardwork.

Tonight, he was just like any other horse. Mucked out round him etc and he was happy playing with wheelbarrow and 'assisting' me. Just munching his hay and watching the world go by. He has learned that his stable isn't such a bad place after all and enjoys the 'room service' very much!
 
Haven't read all the responses but I start young ones including unhandled. I do not ever keep them in a box 24/7. They may be in overnight or during the day depending but never confined. It's not conducive to good mental health. A routine and time to be a horse is always much better. It's part of the process. We start as we mean to go on.

Other than that unless I'm dealing with the situation personally I can't tell you what to do.

Terri
 
ladyt25 said:
I wrote a reply to this earlier today at work but then the site crashed (or my phone did!).

I haven't read the additional responses since this afternoon but from scanning it sounds like he's calmed a bit.

However, just to add my 10pence worth (you probably have had enough by now! :) )

I do not think shutting a horse in a stable is going to ease his stresses and I certainly would have turned out and, to be honest just left him be for a bit. I think sometimes e can do too much with them as we feel we must.

I have been through similar-ish with my youngster who I bought as a 15mth old. Without going in to the full (long) details, I had a fair bit of help from someone to assist with his groundwork and it has really helped me understand him a lot more - turns out he's much more of a sensitive soul than he makes out!

The lady who helped me has done training with Andrew McLean (although she uses various techniques in addition to this). It may be worth your while getting in touch with someone from this sort of background/training as they will break everything down and teach you how to control your horse's behaviour and things such as his flight response etc. Mine relaxes so much more when he realises someone is in control of what he is doing!

I certainly don't think a horse can learn to "manage his stress". The horse is a flight/prey animal so shutting them in a box is not going to help an already stressed horse.
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Hey, my lad is doing very well. I appreciate that this approach isn't the norm but it has really helped my boy. He is learning stress gets him no-where and calmness gets him lavished with attention. He really is a special case and I completely trust the Trainers advice. It took many months to find someone I felt confident to send him to.

I would not subject my horse to unnecessary stress just to see if it works, I feel I have exhausted every other option and have finally found a method that works. I'm sure I have no need to explain how heartbreaking it is to see a stressed horse but I have to focus on his long-term health.

His groundwork instructions are very specific. Black and white. No confusion or 'grey areas' for him.

He is doing so much better and being the lovely little guy I know is his true self.
 
Flyermc said:
Im struggling to understand to idea behind this? Your horse is to stay in his stable until he relaxes. Once he accepts he'll be stabled and appears relaxed, you are then going to introduce t/o. Will he not go straight back to stressing again in his stable, once he's had his freedom back? If he does, does he then stay in his stable until he looks relaxed again, or once he's allowed out do you continue with him going out in the day in at night regardless?

Do you do any bonding with him? I play loads of games with my lads and they will happily follow me around, if im leading them and they get scared by something, they tend to hide behind me or freeze and wait until i walk them past it, they wouldnt bolt off, they trust me. I cant imagine wanting to ride a horse that doesnt trust you.
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No, he had been stabled at Trainers yard for 3 weeks (no turnout) and when he was returned and put out in field at my yard, he didn't even break into a trot. Just ears pricked, checked everything out and started grazing. Before he went to Trainer he was neurotic in field.

Yes, we do have a bond but unfortunately previous advice (NH) exaggerated his fear.
 
Just an update. Horse now very chilled. Box-walking and panicking at yard 'going-ons' stopped. Still in good condition (no weight loss), eating/drinking well. Ears always pricked and enjoying being groomed and fussed and also the never-ending room service! (He gave me a baby tooth as a present today, so thoughtful). No injuries or mishaps to report, although trying to get in the wheelbarrow isn't helpful!

His new game is picking out which grooming brush he wants done with next, rubber currycomb and hairbrush being current favorites (although he does like having stable rubber draped over head). He is off to have an investigation around yard in morning with a very calm babysitter and a few hours in field.
 
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