Full grass livery - obligations

[PinkvSantaboots]

Yes, we will move. However the full livery contract does stipulate providing suitable grazing, and if it’s going to make them ill it’s not really suitable!

Thats your horses though it might be perfectly fine for other horses, they haven't done anything wrong it's just the way they do things doesn't suit your horses, I know they were meant to carry on the same as the other people did it but its there land they entitled to run it how they like.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

I feel like lots of people here are missing the OP's point, which was that when they moved, "it was set up next to the old yard and we were promised the same service and more if we moved, for a higher price.". But the farmer is not providing anything like the same service, and it sounds like he's arguably not fulfilling the terms of the contract. Hence the problem.

I get the point but farmers tend to do what they like and ok the grazing situation has changed and because op doesn't want them on fresh grass it doesn't suit.

Next door to me is livery run by farmers they get people constantly whingeing they don't have enough grazing so often they can't win whatever they do.

 

[criso]

I'd split it into 2 things, the service offered and the environment.

They may have felt they were offering the same service as the previous yard in terms of management, checks, facilities etc but the environment is totally different and doesn't work for horses that need restricted grazing.

The biggest complaint I hear from people who put their horses on grass livery is lack of grass especially in winter and being asked to pay for hay to be put in and issues like mud fever. Where you are may be someone's ideal, you're never going to suit everyone

In terms of cost, good grass livery, assuming comparable facilities, needs more land than if you have horses stabled half the time so wouldn't necessarily be cheaper.

 

[Dexter]

I think your being completely unreasonable to ask a farmer to forfeit subsidies in order to provide what you want/need for £200 a month full grass livery. Why cant you muzzle? Lots of people do in your situation.

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

I run a small DIY concern and here we have a similar problem in that the grass is unfortunately very rich, and there is plenty of it. With my permission my liveries have set up a Track system for each of their horses. This way they are given freedom to set up the sort of grazing and institute the sort of management they need for their horses. I leave them to it, don't interfere. We have a combination of good-doers and poor-doers here; generally the good doers have the Track which runs around the outside of the field, and the poor doers such as the veteran retired hunter belonging to one livery, goes into the middle bit. It IS possible on a Track system to manage most needs.

However if your horses are continually being turned out onto fresh rich grass, this is as you say putting them at high risk from laminitis. Obviously this is not in the best interests of your horses. That said, it is the farmer's £££ for their livelihood which is at stake, and it therefore is patently obvious that this isn't going to change. Period. I think the thing I would be concerned about, as a livery, is that you do not seem to be given any choice about this, and this is obviously an area of concern for you as you do not wish your horses to be on this grass. Neither would I. However I would respectfully suggest that this is the way things are at this yard. And will be ad infinitum.

To go back to your statement of "grass being managed by the yard"...... ehhmmm.... dunno about it being their "responsibility". See I partially agree (I think); but then again I have to say that I disagree quite a lot too with that statement. For lots of reasons. The grass is what it is. In the winter a lot of places have to say sorry we can't provide winter turnout. Now this year we have had an unusual spring & summer which has produced the craziest richest grass ever seen on the planet and everyone's horses are going down with laminitis. That isn't my fault as YO; nor is it your farmer's fault. That is the way things are. Non of us can sh!t miracles and produce exactly the right amount of grass in the right amount. The issue is if the livery ASKS whether they can limit grass by either strip-grazing or track-system, and encounters a blank refusal, then THAT does become an issue of "management". I always try to accommodate liveries and if there is an issue we can always discuss it and try and find a way forward. However the farmer is reliant upon the subsidy for part of their livelihood and frankly I think you will have to find a way around this, OR move. Would the farmer be amenable to a Track system going round the outside, say? It may be worth an ask......

Sadly however I think your only option is to consider moving to somewhere more suitable. You are paying £££ for livery which is not suitable for your horses at the end of the day, and you are rightly concerned that the type of grazing supplied by the yard is putting them at risk. The subsidy and the way that it operates is the problem, and it comprises part of the farmer's livelihood. This isn't his fault; the system is set up the way it is and this is the way it operates. But it is the reason things are as they are and being perfectly blunt this ain't gonna change anytime soon at this yard!

 

[poiuytrewq]

I think your being completely unreasonable to ask a farmer to forfeit subsidies in order to provide what you want/need for £200 a month full grass livery. Why cant you muzzle? Lots of people do in your situation.

I may have this totally wrong.
Op is the farmer constantly moving horses so that no area ever looks grazed and therefore he can collect subsidies on it?
Because If so that is very wrong!
He’s completely taking the P and earning twice on the same land whilst not fulfilling contracts to either party.

 

[Widgeon]

He’s completely taking the P and earning twice on the same land whilst not fulfilling contracts to either party.

That was how I read it too - I am rather surprised at the number of people defending the farmer's actions as reasonable!

 

[poiuytrewq]

That was how I read it too - I am rather surprised at the number of people defending the farmer's actions as reasonable!

IF we are right not reasonable or legal.

Actually if he did it as he should and separated the land for horses, there fore being able to provide better for these particular horses as they would get their own eaten down area and then claimed for the remaining which was left untouched as it should be it would work out much better. (Well except for the farmers pocket I guess)

 

[Burnttoast]

I may have got this completely wrong but isn't the point of full livery that the yard is responsible for the health and welfare of the horse and should take whatever actions are appropriate to that end? Happy to be corrected, I've never been on full livery, grass or otherwise.

 

[Art Nouveau]

I may have this totally wrong.
Op is the farmer constantly moving horses so that no area ever looks grazed and therefore he can collect subsidies on it?
Because If so that is very wrong!
He’s completely taking the P and earning twice on the same land whilst not fulfilling contracts to either party.

Sounds about right to me?
I looked at countryside stewardship options for my land but decided it wouldn't work. The only option that was feasible was one for having different grass lengths in the field, but even then the horses would definitely eat some sections lower than the lowest permitted height before my next field would be ready to move them on.
The farmer can have CS and grazing animals on the same land, that's how it works.

ETA are you thinking of set-aside? That's not the only stewardship scheme the farmer could be under

 

[blitznbobs]

You get subsidies on grazing pasture whether its grazed or not- what he is doing is good land management and looking after his grass. This is a
Modern method of grazing land for cattle and is good for milk production and meat quality - perhaps he thinks horses and cattle are more similar than they are . Either way you know what you are getting so if you dont like it you can move on

 

[criso]

I may have got this completely wrong but isn't the point of full livery that the yard is responsible for the health and welfare of the horse and should take whatever actions are appropriate to that end? Happy to be corrected, I've never been on full livery, grass or otherwise.

I would say full livery is an agreement for a set of services and the day to day care of the horse. The grazing/turnout will vary. You might go to one yard that has no turnout in winter, limited or lots. The grazing may be rich, very poor or in between.

Full grass livery is less common but I would expect that to include daily checks, rug changes, giving feed if needed bringing in and holding for vet farrier etc. When I had a horse at grass, not full livery, I would be paying about £100 a month for a check and feed each day. It was a bit less as I only needed that Mon - Friday. That was on top of the monthly charge for use of field.

 

[poiuytrewq]

Sounds about right to me?
I looked at countryside stewardship options for my land but decided it wouldn't work. The only option that was feasible was one for having different grass lengths in the field, but even then the horses would definitely eat some sections lower than the lowest permitted height before my next field would be ready to move them on.
The farmer can have CS and grazing animals on the same land, that's how it works.

ETA are you thinking of set-aside? That's not the only stewardship scheme the farmer could be under

Maybe so! I know we have lots of bits of land here at the farm that can’t be grazed or even have a muck heap put on (as I found out)
Because they get subsidies for leaving it

 

[SantaVera]

You need to move to a more suitable place. In order to collect subsidiaries the farmer has certain criteria to fulfill which includes not poaching the ground. He'll never provide a bare paddock or track that is better for the ponies or fat cobs. He's trying to have his cake and eat it.

 

[SantaVera]

Re full livery I expect the farmer doesn't know what the real meaning of this is,if he was letting it for sheep, for example, he'd just have them on there for a specified amount of months and maybe check every now and then if any are dead and that's all. I think he probably thinks the same applies to horses. He's trying to cash in by having horses on his ground instead of sheep or cows.

 

[ihatework]

I may have got this completely wrong but isn't the point of full livery that the yard is responsible for the health and welfare of the horse and should take whatever actions are appropriate to that end? Happy to be corrected, I've never been on full livery, grass or otherwise.

Full livery is open to interpretation and really just comes down to what is being contractually offered.

For me £50/week is very reasonable for safe grazing and daily checks with the caveat that if we need to intervene/excessively manage then you will incur additional cost.

Good grass is great for some (less extra cost for hay!) and as the OP case less good for others.

Grass livery that involves intensive management of good doers, is hard on the land and labour intensive and therefore comes at a price that in most areas of the country is in excess of £50/week! In fact finding full grass livery (as in attending every whim!) other than fields/herds/visuals/hay is actually quite difficult!

 

[Honey08]

I’m currently looking at grass livery for my gelding. Places that cater for every eventuality (hard standing tracks and turnouts for bad weather/lami prone horses, grass meadows, sparse turnouts for those that can’t cope with much grass, and big barns they can wander in and out of from all of those facilities. They’ve obviously done TONS of work setting it all up. It’s nearly double what you’re paying.. I’ve not seen any grass livery for much less than £300 pcm. For £200 a month I think you’d just get a field and checked over a couple of times a day. If you have a special needs horse you’d need more “fuss” and I’d expect it to cost more. My horse currently falls into that catagory too.

 

[tobiano1984]

I may have this totally wrong.
Op is the farmer constantly moving horses so that no area ever looks grazed and therefore he can collect subsidies on it?
Because If so that is very wrong!
He’s completely taking the P and earning twice on the same land whilst not fulfilling contracts to either party.

Yes that’s right!

 

[tobiano1984]

I may have got this completely wrong but isn't the point of full livery that the yard is responsible for the health and welfare of the horse and should take whatever actions are appropriate to that end? Happy to be corrected, I've never been on full livery, grass or otherwise.

Yes - my other horse is on full livery in Berkshire now and I can expect to go away for a week and come back and he’s still alive - they manage his grass intake, muzzling etc

 

[tobiano1984]

Update - horses have all moved. It was getting too tricky as I’d moved my main horse to be nearer me (London) and my other one was loaned at the previous place discussed above. The loaner was having a nightmare with him and their own cob so they’ve moved to a non-farmer managed yard!
I do think the farmer is trying to have their cake and eat it - the subsidy dictates that the grass has to look like grassland and have the right mix of plants etc, and to my mind, having run my own livery yard previously, horses are not kind to grass. So they were being moved every week or two onto fresh grass, never having any time of hardship and just piling weight on.

 

[Bellalily]

I’d move pdq. My first concern when visiting a new place is grilling the owner/manager on grazing. No horse needs cattle pasture.

 

[Bellalily]

Yes, we will move. However the full livery contract does stipulate providing suitable grazing, and if it’s going to make them ill it’s not really suitable!

No horse needs lush cattle grazing. So no, he’s not fulfilling his side of the contract. Vote with your feet.

 

[MagicMelon]

Livery isn't cheap around here but for that money you can get proper grass livery, where your horse will be checked, rugged , feeds and hay put out , held for Farrier or vet. £200 pcm for literally just a field and no service is a lot.

Personally I know I would never rent out my field AND do all that work for only £7 a day.

Ultimately OP if it doesnt suit, you just have to move. Can you electric tape off a corner meantime so your horses dont just get fatter and fatter?