Fuming WWYD?

glamourpuss said:
I believe that if you are a supposed professional then you should do a professional job.
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I agree, I think that looking after horses is a lot more complex than cats or dogs. I wonder if she now realises this too. I would want to know the circumstances behind the two breakouts, if you say nothing and "all was well" the lady may not realise how serious this is.

I had a young girl's horse sharing the field with my horse, she came along to bring her horse in and left the field gate open. My horse came out of the field and stood outside in an "I shouldn't be here" panic but luckily I was only a few minutes behind the girl. I went round and gave her a big telling off and she never did it again. Yes, nothing happened and all was well, but it may not have been and it was a very big deal as they were living out at the time.
 
I can see where popsdosh is coming from.... If you don't say anything to the sitter, and they then send a hugely inflated invoice, you can't really complain at that stage. If you have complained already, you have a stronger case in having it reduced to previously agreed level.

Our three horses got out a few years ago (thanks local hunt :( ) and galloped four miles up the road (crossing a B road before they were caught) so any instance of horses getting out at all just leaves me completely cold :( and is v v serious in my book.. I'd have expected sitter to be on the phone to you apologising as soon as you got back TBH, and then you wouldn't I guess be so annoyed now...

Fiona
 
If your horse behaved when you showed him to her, she might not have got a proper grasp on how he can be when he's bolshy. You know exactly what he can be like, so I think you should have made the choice to allow him only to be led in his stallion headcollar or stay turned out in your absence. I really think you should have taken control of that decision, being the more knowledgeable and experienced regarding his potential behaviour.

The underfeeding and fence off are unacceptable. Loose horses and colic could have been disastrous consequences and really, turning on a fence, feeding adequately and prepping beet are basic safety and care needs which any groom should be capable of managing properly.

I would pay according to the price agreed but I would also have a discussion about what happened. I run a business and appreciate considered feedback. It's important for her to hear your concerns, I think because aside from anything, she needs to decide whether horse care is something she should be offering if she can't manage it well.
 
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Fiona said:
I really feel for you OP, I'm sure you were worried the whole time you were away which sort of defeats the purpose of going in the first place :(

I've had two tricky to lead horses before now, made more difficult by the fact that the only tried it on about once every six months so v v hard to predict whether there would be a problem or not.

I'd pay up, but would I must admit be very tempted to enter into a dialogue with her as to why she tried to lead the horse in a headcollar (was the rope round his nose even) but the other mistakes were annoying rather than dangerous so I wouldn't mention them.

And obviously wouldn't use her again....

Fiona
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^^ this. It'd be really tempting to go into full-on rage mode but it really never achieves anything.
I've got one who I find easy to lead around home but she can get away from other people if they don't read her body language properly, so I know what it's like. I hate going away and leaving them - I prefer to sort them so they don't have to be handled at all if possible (leave out, or leave in with mountains of hay).

Try not to stew on it, what's done is done, and now you know not to rely on her in the future.
 
Well I wouldnt be paying her. she didnt give the service you asked for.Sounds a total nightmare. If the horse with the suspensory is injured I would be sending her the vets bill. infact she'd be getting the bill full stop.
 
I'd wait till i got the invoice and see what the charges are and then have a reasonable discussion about it - with a written letter outlining any points you feel need to be made. As a business person, there's no such thing as bad feedback, it all helps you improve.

1. A difficult horse to lead can get away from any handler at times. She saw you lead him and under-estimated how tricky he was. There's no way I'd trust any stranger to lead my difficult horse. And there's no way in hell I'd allow anyone to try and put a chifney on one - it could go so horribly wrong! I think it was a bad decsision to have him hadnled by someone you weren't 100% sure of. A difficult horse is going to act up with a nervous hadnler. It would have been safer to just leave them in the field, but hindsight is 100%

2. Was the electric fence definitely off? It doesn't sound like it was confirmed. If it was then she was negligent, but it doesn't seem like you definitely know, and accidents can happen. And if you don't know if it was definitely off then you haven't a leg to stand to argue the point. Sometimes my lot just barrel through fences at times.

3. I wouldn't have expected her to refill the sugar beet unless specifically told. Some people don't know how to, she mightn't have trusted she knew the right amount of water, or how much to put in, or when to make it in case it went off. She might have thought you used quikibeet. Unless she was told specifically to make it then she's not at fault.

4. The hay issue would annoy me if they were only getting 50% of the amount or something. Sometimes people fluff up hay when they are putting it in barrow, and it looks more than it is.

The horses escaping thing is terrfiying and the injury thing annoying, but I don't think there's any need to explode at her, she obviously thought she did her best. But to avoid future disasters with other peoples horses, i'd jot down a few pointers about things you thought could have been done better. Maybe she will realise horses aren't within her scope. Her 'minding' or them before might have consisted of throwing buckets of feed into a field or something. That's a completely different ballgame to leading tricky horses and she genuinely mightn't have known she was in over her head.

Edited to say: I agree with the other poster that your horses shouldn't have access to the roads, regardless of how long your drive is etc. There is always the chance a horse will spook and leg it off. I'd never feel safe if they weren't secured in some way, especially if there was a stranger looking after them
 
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Orca said:
I would pay according to the price agreed but I would also have a discussion about what happened. I run a business and appreciate considered feedback. It's important for her to hear your concerns, I think because aside from anything, she needs to decide whether horse care is something she should be offering if she can't manage it well.
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This.
 
9tails said:
Does this lady have horses? Had horses? Because if she doesn't, she probably won't know how to use a rope over nose, stallion chain or chiffney.
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Just to say that I'm an experienced horse person, but I have never used any of those items, and wouldn't have a clue as to how to fit them.

If this lady left a gate or gates open that should have been shut, thus allowing the horses to leg it down the drive towards the road when they broke free, then in my book that was her most serious error. I would have blown up at that.
 
If I was the OP i'd be tempted to put it down to lack of research on my part about the woman. Did she explain how much horse expereicne she had? If she misled you about it then i'd be more annoyed. But I honestly wouldn't trust someone to mind my horses unless I knew exactly their competancy and if they owned horses themselves.
 
glamourpuss said:
I think whoever posted that one of those things could be seen as one of those things....but all together it is a deeper concern.
Fiona you are 100% right the worry after the Friday did take the shine off my time away.
I think it's more upsetting because this isn't some friend helping me out, this is supposedly a professional freelance groom, whom I am paying for a service (& not lower rate I might add) If a farrier/saddler/vet made lots of errors then I'm sure no one would suck it up or put it down to one of those things. I believe that if you are a supposed professional then you should do a professional job.

Instructions should be followed & care taken. Ah well live & learn (& not go away unless my usual groom can do it!!)
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Anyone can call themselves a professional whatever though. It doesn't imply good standards, only that you get paid to do it. I've been around horses for 40 years and have plenty of experience of handling bolshy and rude ones, but I've never ever used a chiffney. The rope over the nose is the strongest control I have ever had to use.

Hope the suspensories turn out to just have felt the extra exercise a bit.
 
I look after a friends ponies when they go o0n holiday. They are the only people I do holiday cover for, and this is because we are friends, and they have had issues in the past when they have left them. They now book me before booking their holiday, it may be worth doing this with your regular person in the future.
As to the other issues, it would depend on what the vet said and if he came before the bill did. I would say you have learnt a lesson that people aren't always as competent as they think or make out. Even though you had watched her I would suggest that horses always behave worse when you aren't watching over them. If serious damage has been caused, I would suggest asking her how well insured she is, especially as you gave her the option for them to stay out, and just be fed in the field.
 
I would wait until you get the bill and then decide.
I would have to say something, as that is me, hopefully politely and saying how she must be less experienced than you were led to believe. I think you will have to pay the whole bill or a massive fall out will ensure, and life is too short.
I would ask her about her insurance - and I bet she doesn't have any!
 
I was once told to work out what I want before writing a complaint - do you want a reduction on your bill? An apology? Recognition that she doesn't have the experience that she thinks has and needs to reflect that when talking to prospective clients? Normally, once I've work out what I want the best course of action becomes clear....
 
njyr said:
I was once told to work out what I want before writing a complaint - do you want a reduction on your bill? An apology? Recognition that she doesn't have the experience that she thinks has and needs to reflect that when talking to prospective clients? Normally, once I've work out what I want the best course of action becomes clear....
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This is correct, frustrating, but in one way you should just keep quiet, she now knows she can't handle tricky situations and you know you should have anyone up to do the job with supervision before you leave them to it.
 
The escaping and fuels hopping could just be bad luck on her part.

Did you leave a clear list of things to do?
I would alwayeace a written list stating the obvious rather than just verbally which can be forgotten.
Even things like pick out feet, change rugs, soak more beet!

As for amount of haylage it can be difficult to judge. Again you need to be specific, 2 flat each etc rather than an arm full!

I've give her the benefit of the doubt, pay her and gI've her another chance while you are there or near by so you can check her work and thenane a decision to use her again or not.
 
I am reminded of a someone who said to me every horse is engaged in a mission to kill itself and most grooms are there to assist it.
 
Goldenstar said:
Would just add it always IME takes a freelance far longer to do what you ask them than you think if they don't know the yard and they are trying to do a good job .
I have learn over the years you need expect it to take extra time .
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I completely agree.

I would just pay the bill, and put it down to experience.
 
When I look after the horses for my daughter I always have a precise in depth itemised list of do's and don't and even if I follow it to the letter she is never happy. We have two horses and both of them whilst perfectly well behaved for her are total p*** takers with me. Nowadays I do the feeds/hay and mucking out and pay the yard owner to turn out/bring in.
Not helpful for you I know but it just goes to show that no matter how precise and in depth the instructions are no-one ever does things the way the owner does and it is always sods law that the most perfectly well behaved horse can take advantage when the owner is away.
 
njyr said:
I was once told to work out what I want before writing a complaint - do you want a reduction on your bill? An apology? Recognition that she doesn't have the experience that she thinks has and needs to reflect that when talking to prospective clients? Normally, once I've work out what I want the best course of action becomes clear....
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completely agree with above

these things happen- my horses always get into trouble on days that I am either ill or in a rush- i was both ill and in a rush when they last decided to break through fencing! or when I am away- but I rarely am and things like this story remind me why I am so precious of mine!

in terms of the bill: I simply would not want to pay for any extra time that was spent solving what went wrong i.e. catching the horses! however, these things do happen. but if I did not know the horse and had been warned I personally would of checked how to use the stallion chain and used it just encase, or a bridle. personally I don't like chiffneys.
 
I think you should tell her what you thought she did or didn't do correctly and explain that this is the reason you wont be employing her again - after you've calmed down of course. You don't have to yell or be aggressive towards her but without saying anything to her at all, she wont know how disappointed and upset you are and is more than likely to do the same to some other owner's horses. Tell her that on that basis you will pay her in this instance only (especially if she doesn't offer a discount or accept any liability or her actions or lack of them) and that you will not be recommending her services.
 
Bonkers2 said:
I would have made sure she could cope, which she obviously could not.
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How do I do that? Genuine question. She has a business advertising herself as providing freelance groom & pet care. She told me that she has had horses for years but currently doesn't have one due to finances & time.
She came to my yard & was shown everything clearly I asked her if she was happy with what I was asking her to do, if she wasn't I was offering an alternative. She told me she was.
I don't honestly know what more I could've done other than supervise for the first day!

What do others do when they need paid help? How do they ensure the person they are paying can do the job?
I did exactly the same with the other groom I use & there has NEVER been an issue with her work (& she seems to understand my instructions regarding the amount of Haylage they need)
 
glamourpuss said:
How do I do that? Genuine question. She has a business advertising herself as providing freelance groom & pet care. She told me that she has had horses for years but currently doesn't have one due to finances & time.
She came to my yard & was shown everything clearly I asked her if she was happy with what I was asking her to do, if she wasn't I was offering an alternative. She told me she was.
I don't honestly know what more I could've done other than supervise for the first day!

What do others do when they need paid help? How do they ensure the person they are paying can do the job?
I did exactly the same with the other groom I use & there has NEVER been an issue with her work (& she seems to understand my instructions regarding the amount of Haylage they need)
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Since you ask I get a friend to call in check up on anyone who has not worked on the yard long enough for me to know and trust them .
I have two friends who I would ask to do this one is an equine vet and the other is a good horsey friend who used to event .
But I would not go away and leave a stranger looking after mine unless it was a total nightmare emergency like one of my elderly inlaws who live four hours away taking ill and ending help.
I have two freelancers who I use all the time and another friend who will help out if they can't do extra .
 
glamourpuss said:
How do I do that? Genuine question. She has a business advertising herself as providing freelance groom & pet care. She told me that she has had horses for years but currently doesn't have one due to finances & time.
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a chat about where she's worked, qualifications (not the be all and end all but if she has decent BHS quals she should be able to handle strange horses safely-they also used to teach use of different tack but maybe they don't anymore). There's a world of difference to her having her own horses for years and dealing with other people's horses that are strange to her and that are used to being handled mostly by one person. I am not saying you don't have cause to be annoyed but from what you've listed, only the escaped horse would be an issue personally.

I recently had someone house and pet sit for me, a detailed list should she want it, for the horses. I have a youngster who can be a bit special and so he was left in a paddock where if he was an ar5e he could be left where he was, rather than risk a loose horse-but then I have the wherewithal to have them completely fenced in from the road.I have paddocks up the road from the house but decided against using these this time in case there were any issues. Employing someone unknown to you though is always a bit of a gamble and people can be hard to find-especially in the sticks!

When I was freelancing, I would advertise myself as BHS Stage 4, with several years experience in livery yards, flat racing and equine vet nursing in Newmarket. I could provide references from several different equine employers and was insured obviously.
 
I had a groom for a few weeks, I knew the horse would try to take the pixel when she went from one field to another when turned out if you happened to be off guard, she said he was fine, I believe he was in the correct field
I told he never to let him off with anything or he would nap, the only time she went out on her own, [I asked her if she was happy to take him], he napped and she brought him home, or we could say he brought her home grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr, we went out again with me behind in the van, he thought about it, then thought better of it.
He was a very "safe" horse, no shenanigans that would worry anyone, but I would not have let her handle him without seeing that she could.
 
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First of all I think none of this is your fault, but I am always amazed at the amount of people who think they know a lot about horses and know actually f..all. They have looked after a couple, owned one, looked after a friends, what ever but they are not risk aware.
I have employed various people and I think only one have I thought, 'she really knows her stuff and I would be completely happy they could just about cope with anything.'
Because of this when I go away and pay someone to look after them I make it as idiot proof as possible. If that means leaving them out with a big bale that what I would do, so they have to handle them as little as possible. A lot of people have no idea even how to catch a horse, turn out or handle one safely, even people who own them. I have looked after enough people laid flat on their back having done the most stupid thing you should never do with a horse, the scary bit they did not even realise what they was doing was an accident waiting to happen, not to be surprised what happened to you.
I just hope you an they were properly insured, I would chalk it up to experience
 
glamourpuss said:
How do I do that? Genuine question. She has a business advertising herself as providing freelance groom & pet care. She told me that she has had horses for years but currently doesn't have one due to finances & time.
She came to my yard & was shown everything clearly I asked her if she was happy with what I was asking her to do, if she wasn't I was offering an alternative. She told me she was.
I don't honestly know what more I could've done other than supervise for the first )
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I would of wanted her handling my horse with me there before I left her by herself. Being shown a difficult horse being handled and handling yourself are 2 very different things. You might of picked up on the suitability there and then.

If leaving my pride and joy with someone I would want seen proof of capabilities rather than she said's.

Being a horse owner and dealing with a strange horse are no way to be linked as experience. The are world's apart.
 
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