Gag bits - one or two reins?

[tallyho!]

I just don't get a martingale AND a gag/pelham/double??

Have you all got insane horses?

 

[bexcy-bee]

I just don't get a martingale AND a gag/pelham/double??

Have you all got insane horses?

Not anymore no

 

[Woodykat]

I just don't get a martingale AND a gag/pelham/double??

Have you all got insane horses?

99% of the time No

other 1% Yes!

 

[steph91]

i don't think its that well known that you're supposed to have 2 reins on a gag bit. I've grown up with horses and never knew or have seen anyone with 2 reins. I do use one on my mare for hacking and jumping, otherwise she's in a snaffle or her double bridle. I wouldn't like to start using my gag with double reins as i'd find it too much to fiddle with (i tried before with a pelham). But all our hunting horses and everyone else's i've seen always have just a single rein

 

[Kat]

there's two trains of thought on running martingale on two reins - most say top (snaffle) rein tr act like normal running martingale so to speak

wheras some say bottom (curb) as this rein asks a horse to lower head - whereas the snaffle essentially asks a hrose to raise its head so to put a martingale on that would be confilcting signals... but that also implies that a runing martingale should not be used on a snaffle... confused yet? lol!

anyhow - i'd use two reins on gags and martingale on snaffle rein

Fair enough on a curb bit, but not a gag bit as the bottom rein would have a lifting action not a lowering action.

Have a look at the diagrams here:
http://www.sustainabledressage.net/tack/bridle.php

 

[Starbucks]

My mum hunts her horse in a Cheltenham gag with 1 rein, it is a harsh bit but that’s what he needs because he’s a little bugger and completely drags you around all over if you don’t have something strong.

I don’t see what the problem is personally, if it works and the horse goes happily in it then alls good – 1 rein or 2. Western bits have a huge amount of leverage and they are only designed to have one rein..

 

[2Conker]

Thats because it has become fashionable to use just one rein. Its easier for the rider. In short, horsemanship is dwindling rapidly! Knowledge gets lost- people see them used with one rein and rather than learn to use two the just accept one is ok.

Gags should always be used with 2 reins. Thats how they were designed. Using just one rein shows no understanding of the bits action. Anyone using only one rein should be shot.

Definitely with you on this one, teddyt..... 2 reins. We always sent horses out hunting for clients, the few who needed a gag, with 2 reins. Otherwise you've no choice but to wheel them in all the time, even when they're not testing your control.

 

[tallyho!]

I'm flabbergasted.

Poor horses.

Seriously, if the horse is that dangerous/delirious when out that you need gag/pelham/double + martingale/draw reins just to make it stop I myself would change the horse.

 

[NeverSayNever]

well shoot me now until recently i was competing my horse xc in a dutch gag, running martingale and grakle noseband! Ive actually discovered he goes better in a kimblewick, so now he is in that with a cavesson noseband - but still have the martingale. Poor horse nothing He is a strong lad and Im a small, light rider with very little strength Id rather be able to collect him before a fence and have a good, safe approach to it with a nice elastic contact, than be having to haul on him all the way round and ultimately risk both our safety.

 

[bexcy-bee]

I'm flabbergasted.

Poor horses.

Seriously, if the horse is that dangerous/delirious when out that you need gag/pelham/double + martingale/draw reins just to make it stop I myself would change the horse.

What a stupid thing to say!

I wish it was that easy to change the horse, then we would all have perfect horse, like you clearly do!!

 

[tallyho!]

What a stupid thing to say!

I wish it was that easy to change the horse, then we would all have perfect horse, like you clearly do!!

Why is it stupid???

 

[bexcy-bee]

Why is it stupid???

Why would everyone change there horse just because it needs a slightly stronger bit?

As was mentioned, most people were stating they used the snaffle rein, with the 2nd as back up!!

 

[Woodykat]

Can I also just add that I only use the gag for hacking/jumping/xc - i have a nice gentle snaffle for schooling in

Tallyho - you're welcome to come ride my boy around a xc course without 2 reins and a martingale! Or across the Malvern Hills when the hunt come thundering past...

To explain though, I use the gag as when he sod's off, he set's his head low, and when he's just being a general idiot, he has his head in the sky - I understand that makes him sound like a complete loony, but it's not very often that either the bottom rein, or the martingale, actually come into action - it's just there for when I need it - maybe I'm just a wimp!

 

[honetpot]

I do not think a lot of people know what is commenly know as a gag is in fact a curb bit, like a pelham, or a kimblewick and works on poll pressure as someone as already stated and you are levering the head down.
Because it has no curb chain they think it is 'kinder' but if used on a single rein on the lower ring all it does is make the horse stick its nose between its knees and in fact you end up with less control. The neck ends up hyper flexed and there is no control of the shoulders.
If you need to use a gag far better to use two reins and use it most of the time as a simple snaffle and of use the poll lowering effect when needed. I would rather get a well fitting pelham and teach someone how they work with two reins, there is much more finnese. Any curb bit in the wrong hands can make a horses life misrable.

 

[tallyho!]

Why would everyone change there horse just because it needs a slightly stronger bit?

As was mentioned, most people were stating they used the snaffle rein, with the 2nd as back up!!

Well, I think you're taking my comment completely out of context and turning it into something it isn't.

My view is that if the horse needs so much to control it I'd be asking why.

Yes I do have a very good horse thanks who although is strong, will respect a pelham when out in a group - I've never needed a martingale to add as extra brakes. Come to think of it, neither do the group of people I ride with.

 

[JadeyyBabeyy]

havent read the whole post but HAS to be 2 reins!
hate seeing only one on bottom ring.

 

[bexcy-bee]

Well, I think you're taking my comment completely out of context and turning it into something it isn't.

My view is that if the horse needs so much to control it I'd be asking why.

Yes I do have a very good horse thanks who although is strong, will respect a pelham when out in a group - I've never needed a martingale to add as extra brakes. Come to think of it, neither do the group of people I ride with.

Well that's fine then. I don't use it for extra breaks. And, I have just broken in a pony, who is ridden in a happy mouth snaffle, no add ons, when XC hunting, anything.

And I don't believe anyone on here was stating they used it as extra breaks, more just for control.

x

 

[tallyho!]

Can I also just add that I only use the gag for hacking/jumping/xc - i have a nice gentle snaffle for schooling in

Tallyho - you're welcome to come ride my boy around a xc course without 2 reins and a martingale! Or across the Malvern Hills when the hunt come thundering past...

To explain though, I use the gag as when he sod's off, he set's his head low, and when he's just being a general idiot, he has his head in the sky - I understand that makes him sound like a complete loony, but it's not very often that either the bottom rein, or the martingale, actually come into action - it's just there for when I need it - maybe I'm just a wimp!

Is that an invite??? I'd love to esp. the malverns!! Never ridden there...

 

[tractorgirl]

Just a £0.02p but I would differentiate between the cheltenham/balding/barry gag family and a dutch gag, they are very different bits with different actions. The former (cheltenham) has a head raising action, I would use with 2 reins as imho the bottom rein is not designed to be ridden from alone. Very useful for those that drop onto their forehand and bore down, have used one on a big irish hunter that did this. Have seen it used with one rein and not decrying those who do but for me I think you need extremely good hands to do this, better than I have got as if I got left behind over a fence out hunting and was not quick enough (and occasionally it happens!), and accidentally caught the snaffle rein, that's bad enough, but on the gag rein the action is such that the horse would likely jump inverted and more likely to cause a fall, cut horses mouth etc. Also not nice for the horse to be led off gag rein, and occassionally when doing gates etc, horse needs to be held or led, easier off the sanffle. Like the posters above I kept the gag rein knotted on neck 99% of the time just picked it up when he got too on his head, down hill or on a long run as a reminder.

The dutch gag I believe has a head lowering action and I use one out hunting on a stressy sect D with one rein on second bottom ring and a martingale ( ducks and prepares to be shot!), imo the bit in this configuration acts a bit like a wilkie or a jointed kimblewick with slots, both of which you would use with one rein. It works on the sec D as he sticks his head in the air, sets his neck and tanks, this bit would NOT have worked on aforementioned irish hunter. For me it depends on the horse whether I use a curb strap, sometimes they need/like the extra movement in the mouth that a curb strap stops, sometimes the curb strap is helpful for extra leverage/next step up. Should add that said configuration ONLY used out hunting on this horse as the rest of the time he is perfectly well mannered in a snaffle. He also events in a snaffle (only intro mind you!) and dressages to elementary so fairly happy its not a schooling issue, he just really looooves his hunting!

 

[Queenbee87]

I do use one on my mare for hacking and jumping, otherwise she's in a snaffle or her double bridle. I wouldn't like to start using my gag with double reins as i'd find it too much to fiddle with (i tried before with a pelham).

Am I being stupid here or does a double bridle require two reins? Why can you ride with two reins with a double bridle yet struggle with two when using a gag? (i'm blonde so may have totally missed something here!)

 

[siennamum]

Just a £0.02p but I would differentiate between the cheltenham/balding/barry gag family and a dutch gag, they are very different bits with different actions. The former (cheltenham) has a head raising action, I would use with 2 reins as imho the bottom rein is not designed to be ridden from alone. Very useful for those that drop onto their forehand and bore down, have used one on a big irish hunter that did this. Have seen it used with one rein and not decrying those who do but for me I think you need extremely good hands to do this, better than I have got as if I got left behind over a fence out hunting and was not quick enough (and occasionally it happens!), and accidentally caught the snaffle rein, that's bad enough, but on the gag rein the action is such that the horse would likely jump inverted and more likely to cause a fall, cut horses mouth etc. Also not nice for the horse to be led off gag rein, and occassionally when doing gates etc, horse needs to be held or led, easier off the sanffle. Like the posters above I kept the gag rein knotted on neck 99% of the time just picked it up when he got too on his head, down hill or on a long run as a reminder.

The dutch gag I believe has a head lowering action and I use one out hunting on a stressy sect D with one rein on second bottom ring and a martingale ( ducks and prepares to be shot!), imo the bit in this configuration acts a bit like a wilkie or a jointed kimblewick with slots, both of which you would use with one rein. It works on the sec D as he sticks his head in the air, sets his neck and tanks, this bit would NOT have worked on aforementioned irish hunter. For me it depends on the horse whether I use a curb strap, sometimes they need/like the extra movement in the mouth that a curb strap stops, sometimes the curb strap is helpful for extra leverage/next step up. Should add that said configuration ONLY used out hunting on this horse as the rest of the time he is perfectly well mannered in a snaffle. He also events in a snaffle (only intro mind you!) and dressages to elementary so fairly happy its not a schooling issue, he just really looooves his hunting!

This is all perfectly sensible. I have used dutch gags on horses and ponies and find it a useful step up from a hanging snaffle. I hate to see them high in the mouth, I also dislike them with tight flashes, but for a strong horse and with a good pair of hands they are perfectly ok with one rein. I've been using one since the 80's when they were pessoas, and the evangelism around them requiring 2 reins & a curb is a new thing.

Maybe some of the folk who think they are the work of the devil could inform the many riders who have them with one rein & who compete like this at the highest level.Seen plenty going round Badminton.

 

[teddyt]

The dutch gag I believe has a head lowering action and I use one out hunting on a stressy sect D with one rein on second bottom ring and a martingale ( ducks and prepares to be shot!), imo the bit in this configuration acts a bit like a wilkie or a jointed kimblewick with slots, both of which you would use with one rein.

No.
The dutch gag has a much larger ring attached to the mouthpiece for a start. Therefore more swivel. It also has much longer shanks. Therefore nothing like a wilkie or a kimblewick.

The amount of pressure on the poll is multiplied the longer the shank. It depends on the ratio of shank above the mouthpiece to that below the mouthpiece. With a dutch gag it is multiplied at least 2.5 times- which is far more than in a wilkie or a kimblewick.

The whole point of 2 reins is the higher rein is used first then the lower rein is used to give a sharper ad if required. Using 2 reins allows pressure-release.

Using one rein is all pressure and very little release. There is no warning that the contact will be increased- its just increased quickly and then very hard to give again.

Using one rein on anything lower than the biggest ring is very confusing to the horse- even more so if a martingale is involved.

To me, if someone cant ride with 2 reins then they shouldnt use a gag. If the horse needs a gag then the rider needs lessons to learn how to use 2 reins. The horse shouldnt have to compromise due to the inability or unwillingness of the rider to use 2 reins. The area for pressure distribution in the mouth and the poll is tiny- HUGE scope for damage. A large amount of pressure on a small area is not good

 

[teddyt]

Am I being stupid here or does a double bridle require two reins? Why can you ride with two reins with a double bridle yet struggle with two when using a gag? (i'm blonde so may have totally missed something here!)

You are right queenbee

 

[2Conker]

You are right queenbee

ditto, and ditto queenbee....

 

[ShowJumperBeckii]

i tried to use my dutch gag with 2 too see what my horse prefered and she wasnt happy at all with two reins, she went nicer with either roundings or one rein

 

[tractorgirl]

No.
The dutch gag has a much larger ring attached to the mouthpiece for a start. Therefore more swivel. It also has much longer shanks. Therefore nothing like a wilkie or a kimblewick.

The amount of pressure on the poll is multiplied the longer the shank. It depends on the ratio of shank above the mouthpiece to that below the mouthpiece. With a dutch gag it is multiplied at least 2.5 times- which is far more than in a wilkie or a kimblewick.

Well I did prepare to get shot down!

I did say I use it on the second bottom ring not the bottom ring. In this configuration the "space" between the cheekpiece and the rein is not disimilar to a kimblewick, slightly more than a wilkie, but would swivel in a similar way (hence my comparison). I did also say "acts a bit like" not " the same as".

No.
Using 2 reins allows pressure-release.

My hands do this!! Would not expect the bit to do it for me. Using 2 reins or one, if you hang on to 2 reins there is still no pressure release? I can ride with two reins, as I did in the cheltenham and do with a double, I personally choose not to with the dutch gag.


(oh thanks for the support sienna mum - glad am not entirely alone! ;-) )

 

[spotty_pony]

Two reins as then the aid is more refined and it is fairer on the horse as you can ride on just the snaffle rein for most of the time and just use the rein with the curb action when it is needed. However, the dutch gag is not a very popular bit as it is known for being quite harsh, and you see far too many horses in them that don't need them. A lot of horses become stronger and pull more. Also, it has a lot of leverage and can rotate until the rings are horizontal, causing a lot of pressure and discomfort to the horse. Using it with a martingale isn't correct either as the two go against each other completely (the gag encourages the horse to raise its head, but when the head is raised, the martingale comes into action to tell the horse to lower its head - how confusing for the horse!)

I bet this thread is going to cause some mixed opinions.

 

[tallyho!]

Two reins as then the aid is more refined and it is fairer on the horse as you can ride on just the snaffle rein for most of the time and just use the rein with the curb action when it is needed. However, the dutch gag is not a very popular bit as it is known for being quite harsh, and you see far too many horses in them that don't need them. A lot of horses become stronger and pull more. Also, it has a lot of leverage and can rotate until the rings are horizontal, causing a lot of pressure and discomfort to the horse. Using it with a martingale isn't correct either as the two go against each other completely (the gag encourages the horse to raise its head, but when the head is raised, the martingale comes into action to tell the horse to lower its head - how confusing for the horse!)

I bet this thread is going to cause some mixed opinions.

At last!!! Thanks for helping me out

 

[teddyt]

My hands do this!! Would not expect the bit to do it for me. Using 2 reins or one, if you hang on to 2 reins there is still no pressure release? I can ride with two reins, as I did in the cheltenham and do with a double, I personally choose not to with the dutch gag.

My point about the pressure/release is that with one rein it is much harder for the release, especially with the rein lower down. With 2 reins the release is quicker and the pressure is also shorter lived. However good a rider you are its to do with how the bit works.
With one rein you have to take up alot of contact before the the big ring has swivelled all the way as far as it can go and starts to put pressure on the poll. The rider therefore has to have much shorter reins or they have to draw their hands back towards their body. It is therefore physically much harder to release with one rein than it is with 2.

With one rein there is also much more movement of the bit in the mouth- with the associated increased risk of injury to the bars, etc.

Of course you shouldnt hang on to any number of reins.

 

[spotty_pony]

At last!!! Thanks for helping me out

No problem!