Gag bits - one or two reins?

[monkeybum13]

I've used a dutch gag with just one rein (on 3 different horses/ponies, 2 who also had martingales) and horses have gone happily in it so shoot me now!

Yes I do know how to ride with two reins as I can ride perfectly well with a double bridle.

 

[cloudandmatrix]

i used a 2ring gag with a frenchlink mouth piece with one rein on my cob mare who could be heavy on her forehand- helped her get up in my hands, and gave me brakes without yanking if i needed them. i think on the third ring- constant use and i would say two reins, but if its a one off- eg horse being a nutter out hunting, then one is fine in soft hands- not small kids hands.......
now i can ride in a double bridle, i would say for a cheltanam or balding gag i would use 2 reins unless the horse was really really strong.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I'm flabbergasted.

Poor horses.

Seriously, if the horse is that dangerous/delirious when out that you need gag/pelham/double + martingale/draw reins just to make it stop I myself would change the horse.

.......... or the rider!

 

[JenniferS]

I've used a dutch gag with just one rein (on 3 different horses/ponies, 2 who also had martingales) and horses have gone happily in it so shoot me now!

Yes I do know how to ride with two reins as I can ride perfectly well with a double bridle.

This.

 

[tallyho!]

This.

Hmmm... I'd go happily too if I had a crank-lever attached to a rider and a leather belt attaching my mouth to my girth.

 

[monkeybum13]

Hmmm... I'd go happily too if I had a crank-lever attached to a rider and a leather belt attaching my mouth to my girth.

That's the first time I've heard a running martingale describes as a leather belt attaching a horses mouth to it's girth

 

[tallyho!]

That's the first time I've heard a running martingale describes as a leather belt attaching a horses mouth to it's girth

Ooh we are picky this morning.

Alright then, a strap, a lash, a bit of leather with rings on, or even webbing these days. Whatever you call it the principle is the same.

And don't say it slides on the rein so it can't be a belt because I was illustrating the point that it's a strapping device. Defend it all you want, still doesn't make what you do correct or humane.

So there

 

[jenbleep]

Blimming hell what have I started?

All the people that say the gag should be used with two reins due to the amount of pressure - what would you say about a tom thumb bit which can only be used with one rein? It has a similar action to a gag doesn't it, so is this bit cruel and painful for horses?

Just interested because I've been doing my research lately!

 

[tallyho!]

Blimming hell what have I started?

All the people that say the gag should be used with two reins due to the amount of pressure - what would you say about a tom thumb bit which can only be used with one rein? It has a similar action to a gag doesn't it, so is this bit cruel and painful for horses?

Just interested because I've been doing my research lately!

Well when you put it that way, if you use a dutch gag just on bottom ring then it may aswell be a tom thumb.

It's the most severe bit invented by americans. The shanks not only have a crank-lever action but a squeezing action too and horses have been known to get broken jaws with this.

The dutch gag isn't meant to be a tom thumb so that's why you use it with two reins and a curb so the pressure is distributed onto the bars, poll, tongue and jaw. Better surely?

This is also why a jointed pelham is a false pelham - it becomes a crank-lever type as the joint presses on the tongue then the shanks squeeze the mouth together as well as exerting poll/jaw pressure - ouch.

When you add a martingale, and the horse lifts head, the joint then inverts upwards like a finger on the roof of the mouth making the horse lift head even higher. This is also a reason why I don't like martingales even with snaffles. I think they work best with straight bar bits as then if the head lifts, you get a pull down action on the bars only. No conflict.

Not that I'm an authority on the subject but horses should be taught on the ground how a bit works.

E.g. when introducing a snaffle, you play with it in the mouth gently teaching to bend the neck and lift/lower head. This way, he's forewarned before you get on. Otherwise if you just get on and he makes a mistake and gets a nasty jab somewhere he will instantly resent it.

 

[jenbleep]

Oh I meant a UK tom thumb...I suppose it's similar though, but the shank is a lot smaller?

 

[tallyho!]

Oh I meant a UK tom thumb...I suppose it's similar though, but the shank is a lot smaller?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rHqP00azyc

The UK 'tom thumb' isn't a tom thumb, it's totally unrecognisable as one especially as they now have double/triple joints - what use is that? Shouldn't be called that.

The link is useful to see action of LEVER bits. I've no idea who Rick Gore is but he speaks sense in this video I found just now.

 

[madeleine1]

this is really interesting. i hope you lot can help me.

i brought a horse in may from a riding school where the grandaughter of the place used to compete my to medium dressage when she wasnt in the riding school.

the horse has always been in a gag in the riding school,(dont no what she was in for dressage but i assume it was a snaffle). the rains are always on the second ring, one rein. i know the people i brought her of know alot as people drive for hours for lessons with these people. however they might have been useing one rein in the school as people cant cope with two.

should i put two on, and how do i do this, i have another set of basic reins, should i just use these? confussed me

 

[madeleine1]

is it cruel using one rein on the secnd ring as she is very strong and i dont no if i made it clear but is the second rein just added to the bit. eg are they normal reins or do i need to buy something else

 

[Gorgeous George]

I used to ride George in his with just one rein on the first small ring, but I have recently started using roundings from the snaffle ring to the first small ring (ok double reins would be the ideal, but I use the gag for hacking and jumping and I openly admit that I just could manage double reins in those situations), it has made a real difference to us both and I'm glad I changed.

George hacks and jumps in his gag and a fairly loose (but safe) martingale, not because he is particularly strong, but if he is unsure about something he can start to ignore me and put his head up and I don't think its sensible to put us in that potentially dangerous situation, and the tack combo we use prevents that happening. He seems happy and I am more confident and relaxed, also having the neck strap there is a useful grab handle if needed! It suits us and we both enjoy our hacking and jumping and George is in no way mistreated

ETS: The mouthpiece I use is a mullen mouth straight bar.

 

[teddyt]

is it cruel using one rein on the secnd ring as she is very strong and i dont no if i made it clear but is the second rein just added to the bit. eg are they normal reins or do i need to buy something else

As i said above, if you only use one rein it is much harder for the rider to give (however experienced) because the shank moves towards the rider when a contact is taken. The rider therefore has to move their hands back towards their body, from this position it is harder to give the contact or the rider has to constantly shorten and then lengthen their rein- again, the release is less likely.

The bit is designed to be used with 2 reins and its action and therefore communication to the horse is much clearer if 2 reins are used.

You can use any 2 reins but it is better if the lower rein is not grippy/rubber but plain leather. the upper rein, attached to the biggest ring can be any type of rein. The lower rein can be attached to either of the smaller lower rings, the lower down you go the 'stronger' the bit is.

All the people that say the gag should be used with two reins due to the amount of pressure - what would you say about a tom thumb bit which can only be used with one rein? It has a similar action to a gag doesn't it, so is this bit cruel and painful for horses?

The english tom thumb can only be used with 1 rein. Personally i think this is incorrect too but far preferable to a dutch gag with only one rein. Thats because the mouthpiece is attached to a smaller ring and the shank is shorter. It is therefore easier than a dutch gag to release the pressure if you only use one rein.

 

[tallyho!]

The english tom thumb can only be used with 1 rein. Personally i think this is incorrect too but far preferable to a dutch gag with only one rein. Thats because the mouthpiece is attached to a smaller ring and the shank is shorter. It is therefore easier than a dutch gag to release the pressure if you only use one rein.

Not just the english one, international one is too.

If horse/pony too strong, then it's got a lot to learn. Anyone can stick a severe bit in a horses mouth and make it stop. Surely you want a responsive ride, not a tank with one gear and a handbrake. May I suggest going back to the scales of training???/

 

[steph91]

Am I being stupid here or does a double bridle require two reins? Why can you ride with two reins with a double bridle yet struggle with two when using a gag? (i'm blonde so may have totally missed something here!)


Yes i ride her in the double bridle with two reins, but that is for flatwork as we mainly do showing.
I don't jump in the double as she tanks into the fences and takes the reins out of my hands, therefore i can only handle one set of reins and feel confident that i am still giving with my reins. But i rarely do jump and half the time it is a snaffle, but she races to the jump and i can not hold her at all.
So all the people that are 'dissing' using a gag with one rein, can you recommended a replacement bit that is strong, with only 1 rein

 

[tallyho!]

Am I being stupid here or does a double bridle require two reins? Why can you ride with two reins with a double bridle yet struggle with two when using a gag? (i'm blonde so may have totally missed something here!)


Yes i ride her in the double bridle with two reins, but that is for flatwork as we mainly do showing.
I don't jump in the double as she tanks into the fences and takes the reins out of my hands, therefore i can only handle one set of reins and feel confident that i am still giving with my reins. But i rarely do jump and half the time it is a snaffle, but she races to the jump and i can not hold her at all.
So all the people that are 'dissing' using a gag with one rein, can you recommended a replacement bit that is strong, with only 1 rein

A double bridle has two bits. If you use one rein on the curb and nothing on the bridoon then there is a bit doing nothing.

A double is used when the horse has got the basics sorted and therefore is used to define movements in subtlety. Not sure it was designed to be used on strong horses, someone found it was useful as a brake and now it's become fashion to use it for jumping/xc etc. Awful.

I can't seem to get across that a strong horse is one that does not understand the aids and is basically just careering off out of control because it does not understand, is in pain or plain scared hence the extreme measures.

It's entirely possible to train a horse to be balanced and confident so you don't have to resort to severe bits.

If the horse tanks off when jumping, it's not ready. What preparation have you done for jumping? Is it conditioned for jumps i.e. relaxed, rhythm, balanced, collected, on the aids, straight even?

I can't recommend a suitable bit because the horse isn't ready.

It seems everyone is resorting a stronger bit without addressing the fundamentals first. This is wrong in so many ways and reflects what has been said on here many times about horses and riders going on to do things when they're not ready yet. I's all rush rush rush, stick a strong bit in, it'll be fine mentality and then back it up with the each to thier own attitude.

If this were true, how did armies train hundreds at a time to the same standard?

I'm not apologising for being so opinionated as I think it's clear people see shortcuts as last resorts!!!!

Anyway, try a kimblewick. At least it's a short shank and can be used by hard hands without breaking the horse.

 

[2Conker]

A double bridle has two bits. If you use one rein on the curb and nothing on the bridoon then there is a bit doing nothing.

A double is used when the horse has got the basics sorted and therefore is used to define movements in subtlety. Not sure it was designed to be used on strong horses, someone found it was useful as a brake and now it's become fashion to use it for jumping/xc etc. Awful.

I can't seem to get across that a strong horse is one that does not understand the aids and is basically just careering off out of control because it does not understand, is in pain or plain scared hence the extreme measures.

It's entirely possible to train a horse to be balanced and confident so you don't have to resort to severe bits.

If the horse tanks off when jumping, it's not ready. What preparation have you done for jumping? Is it conditioned for jumps i.e. relaxed, rhythm, balanced, collected, on the aids, straight even?

I can't recommend a suitable bit because the horse isn't ready.

It seems everyone is resorting a stronger bit without addressing the fundamentals first. This is wrong in so many ways and reflects what has been said on here many times about horses and riders going on to do things when they're not ready yet. I's all rush rush rush, stick a strong bit in, it'll be fine mentality and then back it up with the each to thier own attitude.

If this were true, how did armies train hundreds at a time to the same standard?

I'm not apologising for being so opinionated as I think it's clear people see shortcuts as last resorts!!!!

Anyway, try a kimblewick. At least it's a short shank and can be used by hard hands without breaking the horse.

Yeh, a secure, independent seat and legs to guide and control the horse; bits and reins are the add-ons. Seems to have got all back to front.

 

[siennamum]

I can't seem to get across that a strong horse is one that does not understand the aids and is basically just careering off out of control because it does not understand, is in pain or plain scared hence the extreme measures.

It's entirely possible to train a horse to be balanced and confident so you don't have to resort to severe bits.

If the horse tanks off when jumping, it's not ready. What preparation have you done for jumping? Is it conditioned for jumps i.e. relaxed, rhythm, balanced, collected, on the aids, straight even?

Blimey if only Ian Stark had known you when he was trying to hold Murphy Himself, he could have realised he just needed to reschool the horse. What fools people are who ride their 4* horses in strong bits instead of schooling them.

 

[asbo]

2 reins and martingale on the snaffle.

do i get shot for riding in a waterford?

 

[tallyho!]

Blimey if only Ian Stark had known you when he was trying to hold Murphy Himself, he could have realised he just needed to reschool the horse. What fools people are who ride their 4* horses in strong bits instead of schooling them.

Yep. Exactly

 

[madeleine1]

Blimey if only Ian Stark had known you when he was trying to hold Murphy Himself, he could have realised he just needed to reschool the horse. What fools people are who ride their 4* horses in strong bits instead of schooling them.

im glad u said this as i was worrying my highly schooled 14 year old needed reschooling

 

[monkeybum13]

2 reins and martingale on the snaffle.

do i get shot for riding in a waterford?[/QUOTE]

Yes!
I asked a question about waterfords on here and one reply was to use a bike chain "as it would have the same effect" as it was so inhumane

 

[JenniferS]

2 reins and martingale on the snaffle.

do i get shot for riding in a waterford?[/QUOTE]

Yes!
I asked a question about waterfords on here and one reply was to use a bike chain "as it would have the same effect" as it was so inhumane

I was once told that a jointed dutch gag was the equivalent of stuffing barbed wire in your horses' mouth

Don't think I've ever laughed so much..

1) It had the same mouthpiece as a loose ring snaffle or whatever and 2) It acts using poll pressure.

 

[Steorra]

Vastly prefer to see two reins on a gag, and a rider skilled enough to use them independently.

With regards to professional competitive riders using strong bits - a professional's primary aim is to win. Winning pays the bills, keeps the sponsors, gets the next ride. So they do what it takes. The sensible ones care for the horse because a good horse is a valuable commodity. The ones who are true horsemen and women care about the horse for it's own sake. But it's their job, not a hobby, and they need results.

As a 'hobby rider' I have a completely different attitude - my main aim is that my horse and I are safe, comfy and happy. I want to improve, and I work very hard at it, but for me competition results aren't that important in the grand scheme of things. I like to win, but that isn't what puts food on the table and money in the bank. I come at riding from a completely different angle to those who compete for a living - I'm not saying they are wrong, just that I have different aims. And so, I would imagine, do the majority of amateur riders.

So yes, sometimes I see professionals using equipment that I wouldn't use, in ways that I wouldn't use it. By and large (there are a few things I've seen that I think are truly inhumane) they aren't in the wrong, but neither am I.

 

[outandabout]

My horse usually goes in a snaffle, but he needs something stronger for xc when he is very fit. He doesn't 'tank off' per se, but the finesse on the approach in terms of placing him is lost when he is this strong as he is less responsive to the snaffle. After much trial and error, he gets on best with a Dutch Gag on the second ring. He genuinely didn't get on with the two reins (I am perfectly capable of riding and jumping with two sets, btw ) and leather curb, so I now use this with *shock horror* a martingale. A light touch on the gag is all that is necessary to remain fully in control and he reverts to his usual obedient self. I don't hang onto the bit when I'm not 'using it', so to speak, but otherwise maintain a light contact. We are safe, comfy and happy going xc like this, so what's the problem?

 

[teddyt]

It seems everyone is resorting a stronger bit without addressing the fundamentals first. This is wrong in so many ways and reflects what has been said on here many times about horses and riders going on to do things when they're not ready yet. I's all rush rush rush, stick a strong bit in, it'll be fine mentality and then back it up with the each to thier own attitude.

Totally agree. A stronger bit/noseband/draw reins/whatever offer much quicker 'results' than training the horse a few hours a week and a few lessons for the rider. it woulnt b so bad if people actually learnt what they are putting in their horses mouths. Does anyone even consider the mouth conformation?

In the case of the Dutch gag most mouthpieces are fat and single jointed, which make the bit even worse as few horses have the room for this.

Steorra- i agree. Just because a professional uses something doesnt make it right

fadedv- at least you have done some homework and tried other options. I still dont agree with your use of one rein but i am glad that you have at least explored other options


Open- Of course its possible for the bit to be used with one rein and some horses may appear to go ok with one rein. The point is that the way the bit works requires 2 reins for the action to be clear. 2 reins are better for the horse because they allow clearer communication and a more refined aid. Ultimately though, unless the rider is prepared to school the horse with 2 reins and teach themselves to ride with 2 reins, one rein will always be the easier option. Unless you have trained the horse for some time with 2 reins i cannot see how you can categorically say that horses go fine with one rein so why change it. How do you know that 2 reins arent better?

 

[tallyho!]

I fear I'm going on a bit now but it is entirely possible to control a horse without a bit at all... as is done in many countries around the world.

This is a vid from the hated 'p' word but is a good demo...

I don't see neckstraps anymore, they have been replaced by, as teddyt said, flashes, nosebands, martingales & harsh bits. No one seems to know about the one rein stop anymore either. And I rarely see the young hunters ridden with the seat - only the elders seem to still use it - hence most use a snaffle and some even go side-saddle with a snaffle!

For what it's worth... and bear in mind they are in an arena with lots of spectators - prime spooking set-up!

http://www.vidsurf.net/watch/ImzUgnhV-EU/David_OConnor_riding_bridleless_in_a_parelli_show.html

 

[steph91]

A double bridle has two bits. If you use one rein on the curb and nothing on the bridoon then there is a bit doing nothing.

A double is used when the horse has got the basics sorted and therefore is used to define movements in subtlety. Not sure it was designed to be used on strong horses, someone found it was useful as a brake and now it's become fashion to use it for jumping/xc etc. Awful.

I can't seem to get across that a strong horse is one that does not understand the aids and is basically just careering off out of control because it does not understand, is in pain or plain scared hence the extreme measures.

It's entirely possible to train a horse to be balanced and confident so you don't have to resort to severe bits.

If the horse tanks off when jumping, it's not ready. What preparation have you done for jumping? Is it conditioned for jumps i.e. relaxed, rhythm, balanced, collected, on the aids, straight even?

I can't recommend a suitable bit because the horse isn't ready.

It seems everyone is resorting a stronger bit without addressing the fundamentals first. This is wrong in so many ways and reflects what has been said on here many times about horses and riders going on to do things when they're not ready yet. I's all rush rush rush, stick a strong bit in, it'll be fine mentality and then back it up with the each to thier own attitude.

If this were true, how did armies train hundreds at a time to the same standard?

I'm not apologising for being so opinionated as I think it's clear people see shortcuts as last resorts!!!!

Anyway, try a kimblewick. At least it's a short shank and can be used by hard hands without breaking the horse.

I don't think you read my quote at all well, as i said i DON'T JUMP in the double bridle, and school her in a snaffle and double bridle for showing purposes, i ride mainly off the bridoon rein and only use the weymouth when necessary.
I also said i don't jump much, fairly little actually, as she is not ready to jump (in my opinion) although we used to practice a lot.
She is an old hunting horse so when she see's a jump her head raises and she goes, so we have been practicing with pole work.
I agree that people do use stronger bits instead of schooling their horse. Out of the many horses i've had this is the first i have every put anything stronger than a snaffle in. But sometimes it is neccessary, when you want to go out for a quiet hack and have a canter down a little track and all your horse wants to do is gallop and not stop you do need the extra control. I would rather known that i can stop my horse if needs be by using the gag rather than cause an accident in a snaffle.