expanding_horizon
Well-Known Member
The reasoning for sending horse home given wasn’t that Gawsworth couldn’t cope with the horse’s condition, it says that their opinion was the owner couldn’t cope with the emotions of rehabilitation.
Gawsworth Track Livery
- Thread starter JosieSt
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The reasoning for sending horse home given wasn’t that Gawsworth couldn’t cope with the horse’s condition, it says that their opinion was the owner couldn’t cope with the emotions of rehabilitation.
expanding_horizon
Well-Known Member
I had a very negative experience with a horse at Rockley winter 2010. He went sound and came back lame, with huge several inch deep frog splits / holes in feet, and moving on 3 tracks. It’s not something I felt comfortable sharing at the time. Communication was fine discussing sending him but poor once he was there.
expanding_horizon
Well-Known Member
Sharing this because I believe it's the right thing to do
Jasper
Almost exactly a year ago, my horse Jasper – a gorgeous, kind, curious, friendly, and exceptionally well-bred boy (by a grand prix showjumper, out of the offspring of world champion Claret) –...josiewrites.weebly.com
So sorry, and thank you for sharing.
Birker2020
Well-Known Member
Maybe they should have been a little more supportive. When Lari was getting so badly bullied after reintroduction to herd following being away due to his injury the YO introduced him back into the herd carefully. He was jumping out of the field to escape the bully horse even though there was acres and acres for him to roam in. This was dangerous as it was sheep netting and I was really worried he'd misjudge his jump and end up breaking a leg or something.
We visited him on the Monday and told the Y.O that we had spoken to the Y.O where he'd been stabled on livery (and where my stable is being held for my next horse) and we were thinking of pulling him out of the retirement yard and taking him 'back home' again. She couldn't have been nicer, said it was completely my decision, obviously said she couldn't separate him for his own safety permanently and she had done everything she could have done and there wasn't anything more she could do to help integrate him back into the herd. We said we'd go away and give it the rest of the week and think about it. Amazingly during that week two new horses (mares) were introduced to the herd and took a shine to Lari and were literally squaring up to anything that remotely threatened him. When we went back to visit, Lari was as his name sake, literally 'Happy as Lari' with the set up. After a while with his new found confidence he drifted apart from them and started mingling with the other horses including the 'bully horse' who he'd been so terrified of previously. But my point is that she couldn't have been more compliant, helpful and communicative with us if she'd tried, she was amazing.
That is the sign of a good yard owner and it is why he's back there and why I've been on the same livery yard too, for nearly two decades. They are meant to communicate effectively, it appears that your expectation of communication and what you were actually given fell short, which is disappointing.
Surbie
Well-Known Member
That was my understanding too.
irishdraft
Well-Known Member
So sorry to read of your story and experience with the track livery. I do follow gtl on FB and a certain hoofcare professional that the Bethan has got into a media spat with. They both claim to be doing it the right way but I have no idea of gtl experience or qualifications for her to offer this type of livery and be so dogmatic about it. It's incredibly difficult these days for the average owner to decide the best way forward for our horses with so many conflicting ways of doing things. You did the best you could and that's all any of us can do, it's only life experience that's teaches us for future situations x
dorsetladette
Well-Known Member
Please be kind to yourself OP. You did what was right with the information you had at the time.
The GTL has an account on here. I hope she is able to put her POV across factually.
The GTL has an account on here. I hope she is able to put her POV across factually.
Ossy2
Well-Known Member
I’m guessing if GTL come onto post here it will be to ask for post to be closed that seems to be their modus operandi.
OP you have my sympathy for the loss of your horse, I know how heartbreaking the loss of your horse is.
While we should appreciate GTL have no obligation to respond, in the interest of a fair debate on a public forum it would be great to have their side at least
OP you have my sympathy for the loss of your horse, I know how heartbreaking the loss of your horse is.
While we should appreciate GTL have no obligation to respond, in the interest of a fair debate on a public forum it would be great to have their side at least
pistolpete
Well-Known Member
Just reminds me why I keep control of mine even if it’s inappropriate livery! I don’t think I’ll ever be able to hand over care unless it was to a friend. Thought about looking for a loan home but doubt I could do it. PTS probably kinder.
SEL
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure my emotions would be in check if my horse had lost a lot of weight, was footsore and the vet hadn't been called.
I was annoyed enough to get back from holiday once to find my mare with a streaming eye infection and no vet.
expanding_horizon
Well-Known Member
Absolutely. though I suspect they were civil as they are a very polite person. I was at the same yard as the owner for a few years (before they moved to another part of the country), they are lovely through and through.
Jambarissa
Well-Known Member
I'm so sorry this happened to you, you made the best decision with the information you had. This is all any of us can do.
I love the idea of track liveries, I have the type of horses which tend to be good doers, at risk of lami and suffering from CPL, a track would be perfect and I think they'd do fine somewhere like GTL.
I would certainly think twice about sending a horse with any condition that needs individual management. It must be very difficult to treat horses as individuals in that situation or even be able to keep a close eye on them when they're off and about. I think this is where it falls short, maybe when it was starting up and was smaller it was easier but it's promoted as suitable for horses with a wide range of quite difficult issues, I don't see how that can be possible without a huge staff.
I love the idea of track liveries, I have the type of horses which tend to be good doers, at risk of lami and suffering from CPL, a track would be perfect and I think they'd do fine somewhere like GTL.
I would certainly think twice about sending a horse with any condition that needs individual management. It must be very difficult to treat horses as individuals in that situation or even be able to keep a close eye on them when they're off and about. I think this is where it falls short, maybe when it was starting up and was smaller it was easier but it's promoted as suitable for horses with a wide range of quite difficult issues, I don't see how that can be possible without a huge staff.
Bellaboo18
Well-Known Member
So sorry for your loss OP and thanks for sharing your story. It's important both the positive and negative stories are out there for people to see.
Personally, I think the problem with these setups is it's a bit one size fits all. For a horse that can handle it, I'd rather mine were out in a large acreage, not eating all of their forage from tiny holed nets. I saw the post to say they can't feed some horses in the barn because they'd hang out all day there to be fed, I do try to listen to my horses and can't see any harm in them hanging out in a barn
Personally, I think the problem with these setups is it's a bit one size fits all. For a horse that can handle it, I'd rather mine were out in a large acreage, not eating all of their forage from tiny holed nets. I saw the post to say they can't feed some horses in the barn because they'd hang out all day there to be fed, I do try to listen to my horses and can't see any harm in them hanging out in a barn
Tarragon
Well-Known Member
I am sorry to read your account. he sounds like a wonderful horse.
I am wary about adding any horse to a mixed herd, especially one where the dynamics are out of my control and change fairly frequently. I think that the issue you had here was a combination of the horse not being suited to the management at GTL, and the management at GTL not being prompt enough to notice and react.
You will never know what would have happened to your horse if you had done anything differently; if you hadn't decided on rehabilitating using a track livery, or choosing GTL, or visiting more frequently in the first 6 weeks etc. etc.
I do feel uneasy when people make such a public and damming announcement, knowing that their version of events is going to be read by so many people. It wouldn't surprise me if GTL decide not to comment, as having such a public open debate will do no-one any good.
I am wary about adding any horse to a mixed herd, especially one where the dynamics are out of my control and change fairly frequently. I think that the issue you had here was a combination of the horse not being suited to the management at GTL, and the management at GTL not being prompt enough to notice and react.
You will never know what would have happened to your horse if you had done anything differently; if you hadn't decided on rehabilitating using a track livery, or choosing GTL, or visiting more frequently in the first 6 weeks etc. etc.
I do feel uneasy when people make such a public and damming announcement, knowing that their version of events is going to be read by so many people. It wouldn't surprise me if GTL decide not to comment, as having such a public open debate will do no-one any good.
Bellaboo18
Well-Known Member
I do agree in one respect but also think its important people see all reviews and not just the ones a business 'allows'.
Obviously Jasper was struggling in his other setup and OP did her best for him and moved him to what appeared to be a better alternative but yes who knows if he'd have ever settled again in his previous yard.
Pinkvboots
Well-Known Member
Exactly if horses are hanging around feed areas they are obviously hungry so feed them is my motto, I hate to see horses standing in muddy gateways looking miserable with nothing to eat waiting to come in for some hay.So sorry for your loss OP and thanks for sharing your story. It's important both the positive and negative stories are out there for people to see.
Personally, I think the problem with these setups is it's a bit one size fits all. For a horse that can handle it, I'd rather mine were out in a large acreage, not eating all of their forage from tiny holed nets. I saw the post to say they can't feed some horses in the barn because they'd hang out all day there to be fed, I do try to listen to my horses and can't see any harm in them hanging out in a barn
Parksmum3
Well-Known Member
I'm so sorry for the loss of your beautiful boy. My heart was breaking reading your story but I thank you for being brave and sharing this with us. R.I.P jasper and take care op x
Palindrome
Well-Known Member
I am sorry OP, your poor horse.
I have a native and 2 sport horses types on a track system at home. The track is there to save the grass for Spring and Summer as the land can not support horses in the wet and cold months.
The sport horses get hard feed twice a day on top of the hay and I have to separate the native or the 2 others won't get adequate amounts of hay. The native will climb piles of hay and poo on it, she will block access to the shelter if I put hay in it. Even if she is not hungry, she will try to block access to as many piles of hay as possible. It is difficult to manage and it is just 3 horses.
The sport horses have very different nutritional needs and attitude to food than the native.
I have a native and 2 sport horses types on a track system at home. The track is there to save the grass for Spring and Summer as the land can not support horses in the wet and cold months.
The sport horses get hard feed twice a day on top of the hay and I have to separate the native or the 2 others won't get adequate amounts of hay. The native will climb piles of hay and poo on it, she will block access to the shelter if I put hay in it. Even if she is not hungry, she will try to block access to as many piles of hay as possible. It is difficult to manage and it is just 3 horses.
The sport horses have very different nutritional needs and attitude to food than the native.
Maxidoodle
Well-Known Member
OP, I am so incredibly sorry for your loss of Jasper, he looked and sounded very special indeed. x
ponyparty
Well-Known Member
So sorry for your loss. I have a similar story about a track livery, PB Barefoot Rehab & Retirement livery. I only sent my boy there because I had just gone back to work following maternity leave, and I broke my hand badly - I was struggling to cope with everything (and we'd just moved house, it was chaos). I wanted to turn him away for the winter but he had EMS, and without being in work and being managed carefully I was worried about laminitis. He also had mild arthritis so I didn't want him stood in all the time.
First couple of months it seemed ok, I visited whenever I wanted, he was bright enough. I have a (now heartbreaking) video of him cantering over to me on one of my first visits - god I wish I'd taken him home then. Then - this was early 2020 - lockdown happened. It was just over an hour's drive away and against rules for me to go and visit at that time I think.. it's all a bit of a blur, back then. In the April, they sent a pic a front hoof after a trim and I just knew my horse would be crippled. The sole had been pared away, the frog had atrophied, and his hoof was a longer, more oval shape than before his shoes being taken off - the opposite of what I'd expect to see happening. I asked them to send me videos of him moving and they refused (they didn't SAY "we're not going to" - they just didn't send any). Alarm bells were ringing so I got a friend and jumped in the car, feeling like a criminal due to the damned covid rules, and went to see my horse. He was shuffling around like an old man. I went to a vets up there and got him enough Danilon for 2x per day to last him until I could move him back closer to home. When I went to collect him he was still crippled, honestly when he came off the box back down here I thought he was going to have to be PTS that day or the next, as - bearing in mind he was on 2 Danilon a day and still that crippled - it was clearly very serious. Vet saw him on arrival, prescribed more Danilon and hey presto, in 2 days he was bouncing around happy as anything. The vet suggested to me (I didn't even click) that perhaps he had not been receiving the 2 Danilon a day that I left with specific instructions.... Wish I'd had bloods pulled, I'll never know for sure but seems rather coincidental that within the time it would take for Danilon to take effect, suddenly he was almost right as rain.
The track livery never once said he was struggling, lame, barely walking. They had a duty of care to notify me (at the very least! If not get veterinary attention on my behalf, in the circumstances). They refused to send me videos - if I hadn't jumped in the car I dread to think what state he'd have been in. I think they knew damned well that their trimmer had crippled him and didn't want me to know.
He did have arthritis too, yes, and was undergoing more lameness investigations at the new livery yard - including a new issue which vet suspected was neck arthritis. (This is a bugbear of mine too as I had asked my previous vet about a permanent patch of sweat on his shoulder, which he had repeatedly brushed off. New (brilliant) vet said that can sometimes be an indicator of neck arthritis and coupled with the issues she was seeing that's what she suspected. Poor boy could have had treatment earlier (or other conversations could have been had, to save him from suffering) if my old vet had just listened to me - or if I'd asked for a second opinion instead, people can make errors I guess!)
I do remember the track livery saying things like "holistic" and preferring to avoid traditional pharmaceutical veterinary treatments where possible (including a pony who had cushings who was not medicated - I had never heard of this before!). But there's "holistic" and then there's downright neglectful. It's almost like a cult, the way these barefoot/track liveries go on. Totally brainwashed and blind to the bigger picture. And all the public infighting... just urgh!
I nearly lost my mind over this. The anguish... it was torture. I lost my boy a month later due to a field accident - he'd probably have been PTS anyway once we'd investigated the neck a bit more, but it would have been peacefully, on my terms, with his head in a bucket of feed, knowing no pain. I'll never forget it. I'm just glad he got a good month back home, getting back to his usual cheeky self.
And no - all his issues (apart from the godawful trim) weren't caused by the track livery - just as your boy's may not have been. But they damned well should have notified me as soon as he wasn't quite right and provided adequate treatment - and the same for you.
Sending you a massive hug. I really feel for you.
First couple of months it seemed ok, I visited whenever I wanted, he was bright enough. I have a (now heartbreaking) video of him cantering over to me on one of my first visits - god I wish I'd taken him home then. Then - this was early 2020 - lockdown happened. It was just over an hour's drive away and against rules for me to go and visit at that time I think.. it's all a bit of a blur, back then. In the April, they sent a pic a front hoof after a trim and I just knew my horse would be crippled. The sole had been pared away, the frog had atrophied, and his hoof was a longer, more oval shape than before his shoes being taken off - the opposite of what I'd expect to see happening. I asked them to send me videos of him moving and they refused (they didn't SAY "we're not going to" - they just didn't send any). Alarm bells were ringing so I got a friend and jumped in the car, feeling like a criminal due to the damned covid rules, and went to see my horse. He was shuffling around like an old man. I went to a vets up there and got him enough Danilon for 2x per day to last him until I could move him back closer to home. When I went to collect him he was still crippled, honestly when he came off the box back down here I thought he was going to have to be PTS that day or the next, as - bearing in mind he was on 2 Danilon a day and still that crippled - it was clearly very serious. Vet saw him on arrival, prescribed more Danilon and hey presto, in 2 days he was bouncing around happy as anything. The vet suggested to me (I didn't even click) that perhaps he had not been receiving the 2 Danilon a day that I left with specific instructions.... Wish I'd had bloods pulled, I'll never know for sure but seems rather coincidental that within the time it would take for Danilon to take effect, suddenly he was almost right as rain.
The track livery never once said he was struggling, lame, barely walking. They had a duty of care to notify me (at the very least! If not get veterinary attention on my behalf, in the circumstances). They refused to send me videos - if I hadn't jumped in the car I dread to think what state he'd have been in. I think they knew damned well that their trimmer had crippled him and didn't want me to know.
He did have arthritis too, yes, and was undergoing more lameness investigations at the new livery yard - including a new issue which vet suspected was neck arthritis. (This is a bugbear of mine too as I had asked my previous vet about a permanent patch of sweat on his shoulder, which he had repeatedly brushed off. New (brilliant) vet said that can sometimes be an indicator of neck arthritis and coupled with the issues she was seeing that's what she suspected. Poor boy could have had treatment earlier (or other conversations could have been had, to save him from suffering) if my old vet had just listened to me - or if I'd asked for a second opinion instead, people can make errors I guess!)
I do remember the track livery saying things like "holistic" and preferring to avoid traditional pharmaceutical veterinary treatments where possible (including a pony who had cushings who was not medicated - I had never heard of this before!). But there's "holistic" and then there's downright neglectful. It's almost like a cult, the way these barefoot/track liveries go on. Totally brainwashed and blind to the bigger picture. And all the public infighting... just urgh!
I nearly lost my mind over this. The anguish... it was torture. I lost my boy a month later due to a field accident - he'd probably have been PTS anyway once we'd investigated the neck a bit more, but it would have been peacefully, on my terms, with his head in a bucket of feed, knowing no pain. I'll never forget it. I'm just glad he got a good month back home, getting back to his usual cheeky self.
And no - all his issues (apart from the godawful trim) weren't caused by the track livery - just as your boy's may not have been. But they damned well should have notified me as soon as he wasn't quite right and provided adequate treatment - and the same for you.
Sending you a massive hug. I really feel for you.
Sanversera
Well-Known Member
How awful
sorry to hear of your troubles, poor you and poor horse.it does sound like the track livery were neglectful.Bettyboodixiedoo
New User
I also had a complete nightmare at a high profile track livery. Pony went with weight issues, lost weight initially and then gained more due to high sugar hay and grassy edges on the track, ended up with EMS and some massive vet bills. A riggy gelding arrived and sent her hormones into a spin. She was footsore, depressed and bloated. Pulses and puffy eyes. I’ve never seen her more unhappy.
The supervision and basic horse management were insufficient, the owner was inflexible and disagreed with vet advice, and completely bad mouthed some very competent professionals that I had treating my pony. She kept trying to tell me what I should be doing, would badger me for answers if I didn’t reply to her messages and voice notes, and in the end was trying to gaslight me. I’m old enough to be her mother so I was not going to stand for that crap.
When I emailed my notice and said I would be at the yard in the morning to discuss, she said there was no need to discuss and that she had a feeling it was coming.
She has made herself feel better by blaming me for not doing more (not sure exactly how when pony was footsore, depressed and anyway on full livery?) and then said I lived too far away. (Which was made clear from the start and was why pony was on full livery). Her FB posts have got more and more ranty and unprofessional.
My pony is now back on her traditional yard, nearer to me so I can supervise her management and health, and she is happy and healthy again.
I think this thread is really important to hear people’s experiences at track liveries. Inevitably if we post on their respective pages we would get booted off, and the faithful followers would all be clutching their pearls. Debate and deviation from their rigid ideals just ends in the conversation being shut down. Tracks can be invaluable tools in managing horses’ health but the track livery cults are not doing themselves any favours.
In hindsight, the livery contract running to over 35 pages should have been a massive red flag!
The supervision and basic horse management were insufficient, the owner was inflexible and disagreed with vet advice, and completely bad mouthed some very competent professionals that I had treating my pony. She kept trying to tell me what I should be doing, would badger me for answers if I didn’t reply to her messages and voice notes, and in the end was trying to gaslight me. I’m old enough to be her mother so I was not going to stand for that crap.
When I emailed my notice and said I would be at the yard in the morning to discuss, she said there was no need to discuss and that she had a feeling it was coming.
She has made herself feel better by blaming me for not doing more (not sure exactly how when pony was footsore, depressed and anyway on full livery?) and then said I lived too far away. (Which was made clear from the start and was why pony was on full livery). Her FB posts have got more and more ranty and unprofessional.
My pony is now back on her traditional yard, nearer to me so I can supervise her management and health, and she is happy and healthy again.
I think this thread is really important to hear people’s experiences at track liveries. Inevitably if we post on their respective pages we would get booted off, and the faithful followers would all be clutching their pearls. Debate and deviation from their rigid ideals just ends in the conversation being shut down. Tracks can be invaluable tools in managing horses’ health but the track livery cults are not doing themselves any favours.
In hindsight, the livery contract running to over 35 pages should have been a massive red flag!
vanrim
Well-Known Member
I follow her on Facebook. She is always right. Always. I don’t know how she finds horses that are shod so badly but to suggest every shod horse looks like this is ridiculous. When I asked her how many of her barefoot liveries were ridden regularly or competed she didn’t reply she just referred to a top show jumping horse who is barefoot - but probably has the best vet and farrier in the country to keep it sound. How anyone in their right minds can suggest you can fix laminitis by walking on hard ground 24/7 is in my opinion criminal. I have successfully rehabbed 3 horses with ppid related laminitis over the years but always on a two feet deep shavings bed with appropriate pain relief. I think Gawsworth is like one of these cults where everyone is brainwashed by some self appointed guru. It’s a relief to finally see the other side.
SO1
Well-Known Member
I expect a lot of horses that end up at these places where things go wrong is because of a situation of last resort and desperation where conventional treatment and advice from vets hasn't worked or where people are looking at alternatives to the dreaded box rest.
I can totally understand the appeal of track livery for good doers, and those that cannot tolerate grass and outside of winter it is nice for the horses to be outside in groups moving around. Barefoot is also a healthy option as well with appropriate surfaces and hoof care.
I think climate change means wetter winters and I think it is harder for these track liveries which don't have grass and are not on artificial surface to not end up being very wet and muddy with the associated impact on hooves if they are saturated all the time, as well it being more slippery and having to lift legs out of heavy going which could cause injury or aggregate a injury.
I can also see that what might be suitable for natives and cob types might not work in the same way for sports horse having the same diet and management sharing a track. As these yards diversify from their original core clientele of recovered laminitics and weight watchers to trying to fix other lameness issues not related to diet and exercise they may have more horses that don't do as well just because of the severity of the condition they were hoping to fix.
I can totally understand the appeal of track livery for good doers, and those that cannot tolerate grass and outside of winter it is nice for the horses to be outside in groups moving around. Barefoot is also a healthy option as well with appropriate surfaces and hoof care.
I think climate change means wetter winters and I think it is harder for these track liveries which don't have grass and are not on artificial surface to not end up being very wet and muddy with the associated impact on hooves if they are saturated all the time, as well it being more slippery and having to lift legs out of heavy going which could cause injury or aggregate a injury.
I can also see that what might be suitable for natives and cob types might not work in the same way for sports horse having the same diet and management sharing a track. As these yards diversify from their original core clientele of recovered laminitics and weight watchers to trying to fix other lameness issues not related to diet and exercise they may have more horses that don't do as well just because of the severity of the condition they were hoping to fix.
criso
Coming over here & taking your jobs since 1900
I think to really do track livery well, you need a lot of space and have to landscape, set up all weather bits, have suitable shelters and that's a lot of investment. People might be happy to pay for this on a temporary rehab basis but not sure how many would long-term so maybe sometimes it's being done on the cheap.
Mine went to Rockley for rehab Feb - June so a variety of seasons. There was unlimited haylage in troughs indoors and out and mud free surfaces and he came back very well covered but he was a good doer for a tb. They also had space and options to put horses in small groups if needed. However the prices when they were active were equivalent to high end full livery and they only ever took a few. Not sure most people would pay those sort of prices for what they would see as glorfied grass/retirement livery albeit without actual grass.
Honey08
Waffled a lot!
I used to follow GTL with interest in the early days. It looked fabulous. But as time went on I found the “I know better than anyone” attitude, and the hoardes of naive followers saying “oh yes you do, how dare anyone criticise you!” so distasteful that I stopped following them.
There is a trend for over confidence in some of these yard owners. I was on a track/barefoot facebook page last week where someone declared themselves an expert because they’ve “done research” - ie, visited a few of these tracks. I nearly sent my boy to a retirement livery last year. I’m glad I persevered with him at home now.
OP I’m very sorry for your loss.
There is a trend for over confidence in some of these yard owners. I was on a track/barefoot facebook page last week where someone declared themselves an expert because they’ve “done research” - ie, visited a few of these tracks. I nearly sent my boy to a retirement livery last year. I’m glad I persevered with him at home now.
OP I’m very sorry for your loss.
Boulty
Well-Known Member
OP I'm very sorry for your loss and for it to have occurred in such a way as to leave you with so many what ifs.
It is common for horses who seemed fine when shoes are initially taken off to start feeling their feet a little a few weeks in. If he was still growing nailholes out a month after arrival (yes I'm pedantic enough that I've had a nosey for photos) then it's probable he was in that window. It seems to be theorised that this is in part due to a return of better circulation to the foot and maybe there's an element of bruising that goes on as well plus the frog shape of shod horses can predispose them to thrush development which obviously can make it painful for the horse when we suddenly want the frog to start doing its job again. A lot of horses do seem to be prone to abscessing in that initial transitioning period as well for whatever reason. (although it's also perfectly possible for horses who've had no recent changes to their management throw some pretty nasty abscesses as well). I guess what I'm trying to say is that he may have started to struggle at the point he did even if you had kept him at his previous yard or turned him away elsewhere and he may still have abscessed in the same way although yes it is tougher on a hoof to be walking over a vast variety of surfaces 24/7 as opposed to mainly either soft bedding or relatively soft field. (does make for a healthier hoof in the long run but it can be a challenge even for healthy feet that don't have a shopping list of pathologies to adapt to without extra support / booting) You did get offered the option of vet exam at the point an abscess was first noticed but I can appreciate that you feel you had it presented as the less preferable option (& I'll be totally honest and say that in that position as long as horse not crippled I probably would have gone for the poultice and see what comes out approach as well as I also don't believe in digging them out if it can be avoided). Yes you were probably foolish to not check on him for 6 weeks initially but I'll admit I've left a horse 4 weeks somewhere before checking in (in my defence 6 hrs is a rather long drive!) & I was also forced to do 6 weeks once (1st covid lockdown when everyone was scared and being super strict an actually following the rules)
Unsure if I 100% win the gold medal but I think I've been a livery at more different track and equicentral systems than anyone else in the country that I know of. (Any advance on 6?) There are absolutely massive differences in what many of them offer and who their target market is, what level of service they provide and how involved they expect their owners to be. There is a huge difference in the level of one to one attention and monitoring a horse will receive at a rehab specialist yard dealing with only a small number of horses at once where the livery involves exercise and rehab plans (& so lots of opportunity to see how the horse is moving and obsessively monitor changes) to somewhere more set up as a full livery yard that also offers to take rehab cases (but maybe isn't actively taking them out & exercising them every few days and so relies on seeing them move around their turnout area to passively assess how they are doing). I am not saying that track liveries that are not soley rehab focussed are wrong for allowing horses on that have issues their owner is hoping to improve by taking them barefoot, just that what they can realistically offer will be different. A lot of horses will still thrive and do well in these kinds of setups but some of the more sensitive souls do seem to need that constant one to one monitoring and that active assessment of how they are moving on a frequent basis which isn't always realistic to expect at a lot of yards unless the owner is in the position to step up & do it themselves. Obv a lot of tracks aren't run by people with trimming qualifications etc, just usually people passionate about providing that type of lifestyle for horses as an option but then a lot of owners of traditional yards also have zero qualifications (not all of course but a large portion) and some of them also have some "interesting" ideas of their own.
Not every type of track livery will suit every horse and their needs. The Welsh I used to have struggled weight-wise at a place I had him that used mainly small holed nets as he was quite a poor doer at that point in his life and needed pretty much ad lib forage without restriction to keep weight on him, he also really struggled when grass growing in the middle of the woodland that the YM and myself had classified as low risk flushed a bit after it rained. Another track that pony lived on he kept weight on beautifully because they provided insane amounts of hay mainly in normal haylage nets and they didn't have to move all that much to get it. That yard had done some wonderful things in terms of lots of tree planting & creating a large hardstanding area for when the field / track was too muddy with a gorgeous barn but the lack of movement & stimulation did mean his feet deteriorated in some ways whilst there and he did struggle with some of their surfaces where there were loose stones. He also used to get very frustrated when they were shut on the hardstanding because his brain viewed that as being stabled. Same pony absolutely thrived at Rockley and think he would have happily lived there & never set eyes on me again! It's probably quite a good thing he was far enough away that I didn't see much of the first month of his rehab as he didn't start from a particularly sound place and whilst able to mooch around on the tracks and the fields I don't think I'd have enjoyed watching him walk across the yard. (Tbf it took him a good couple of months to be totally happy on concrete from a starting place of looking utterly crippled on it) I'll admit my preference for that horse was DIY with him coming off grass during day & someone there to give him evening feed & turn back out for me just so I could have the level of control but he rather mucked that up by becoming totally intolerant to Spring / Summer grass. (I'll admit that at many many points I absolutely would have given my right arm for access to a track for him in realistic day to day travel distance though) I didn't enjoy giving up control & him being on full livery due to distance when I had to move him somewhere an hour away as a last ditch PTS avoidance strategy, esp as they often got rugging decisions wrong (to the point sometimes horse was either tucked up & shivering or too hot & sweating, sadly he was a horse who couldn't just be left naked) and they also sometimes forgot to give him supplements and medications to the point I created a system of labelled pots so I could monitor and kicked up such a fuss if doses were missed that they did actually start monitoring that it was being done properly. I don't think the things that were not ideal were specifically down to the place being a track, just a situation where YO was having to rely on staff quite a lot and some of the staff were more reliable than others. (I've also had traditional livery yards either being incapable of catching this horse / simply forgetting, they were also incapable of putting on or removing a grazing muzzle, would never tell me if the staff did bring him in and he was lame etc)
Current thug was thrown off an equicentral for going through the tape fencing that wasn't really giving a very good zap (I know from touching it by accident myself frequently) but I would not have stayed there long term anyway as I had no control and couldn't manage his weight in any meaningful way there (setup would have suited a poor doer really really well though). He did live at Gawsworth for about 9 months as an emergency port in a storm as we were thrown off previous yard just before lockdown. Despite having never been shod he didn't have the best developed feet in the world & did struggle with thrush on & off at the time so yes he did struggle a little with some of their tougher surfaces initially in that he seemed less confident moving on them the first few times I was able to go & see him but by the time I finally found somewhere else that would accept him he was totally happy on all their surfaces and I'll admit I've never had him as totally sound over everything as he was during the latter part of being there. He's on yet another style of track atm that probably works best for good doers but does have some poor doers that do ok with extra support / time away from the others with extra forage.
It is common for horses who seemed fine when shoes are initially taken off to start feeling their feet a little a few weeks in. If he was still growing nailholes out a month after arrival (yes I'm pedantic enough that I've had a nosey for photos) then it's probable he was in that window. It seems to be theorised that this is in part due to a return of better circulation to the foot and maybe there's an element of bruising that goes on as well plus the frog shape of shod horses can predispose them to thrush development which obviously can make it painful for the horse when we suddenly want the frog to start doing its job again. A lot of horses do seem to be prone to abscessing in that initial transitioning period as well for whatever reason. (although it's also perfectly possible for horses who've had no recent changes to their management throw some pretty nasty abscesses as well). I guess what I'm trying to say is that he may have started to struggle at the point he did even if you had kept him at his previous yard or turned him away elsewhere and he may still have abscessed in the same way although yes it is tougher on a hoof to be walking over a vast variety of surfaces 24/7 as opposed to mainly either soft bedding or relatively soft field. (does make for a healthier hoof in the long run but it can be a challenge even for healthy feet that don't have a shopping list of pathologies to adapt to without extra support / booting) You did get offered the option of vet exam at the point an abscess was first noticed but I can appreciate that you feel you had it presented as the less preferable option (& I'll be totally honest and say that in that position as long as horse not crippled I probably would have gone for the poultice and see what comes out approach as well as I also don't believe in digging them out if it can be avoided). Yes you were probably foolish to not check on him for 6 weeks initially but I'll admit I've left a horse 4 weeks somewhere before checking in (in my defence 6 hrs is a rather long drive!) & I was also forced to do 6 weeks once (1st covid lockdown when everyone was scared and being super strict an actually following the rules)
Unsure if I 100% win the gold medal but I think I've been a livery at more different track and equicentral systems than anyone else in the country that I know of. (Any advance on 6?) There are absolutely massive differences in what many of them offer and who their target market is, what level of service they provide and how involved they expect their owners to be. There is a huge difference in the level of one to one attention and monitoring a horse will receive at a rehab specialist yard dealing with only a small number of horses at once where the livery involves exercise and rehab plans (& so lots of opportunity to see how the horse is moving and obsessively monitor changes) to somewhere more set up as a full livery yard that also offers to take rehab cases (but maybe isn't actively taking them out & exercising them every few days and so relies on seeing them move around their turnout area to passively assess how they are doing). I am not saying that track liveries that are not soley rehab focussed are wrong for allowing horses on that have issues their owner is hoping to improve by taking them barefoot, just that what they can realistically offer will be different. A lot of horses will still thrive and do well in these kinds of setups but some of the more sensitive souls do seem to need that constant one to one monitoring and that active assessment of how they are moving on a frequent basis which isn't always realistic to expect at a lot of yards unless the owner is in the position to step up & do it themselves. Obv a lot of tracks aren't run by people with trimming qualifications etc, just usually people passionate about providing that type of lifestyle for horses as an option but then a lot of owners of traditional yards also have zero qualifications (not all of course but a large portion) and some of them also have some "interesting" ideas of their own.
Not every type of track livery will suit every horse and their needs. The Welsh I used to have struggled weight-wise at a place I had him that used mainly small holed nets as he was quite a poor doer at that point in his life and needed pretty much ad lib forage without restriction to keep weight on him, he also really struggled when grass growing in the middle of the woodland that the YM and myself had classified as low risk flushed a bit after it rained. Another track that pony lived on he kept weight on beautifully because they provided insane amounts of hay mainly in normal haylage nets and they didn't have to move all that much to get it. That yard had done some wonderful things in terms of lots of tree planting & creating a large hardstanding area for when the field / track was too muddy with a gorgeous barn but the lack of movement & stimulation did mean his feet deteriorated in some ways whilst there and he did struggle with some of their surfaces where there were loose stones. He also used to get very frustrated when they were shut on the hardstanding because his brain viewed that as being stabled. Same pony absolutely thrived at Rockley and think he would have happily lived there & never set eyes on me again! It's probably quite a good thing he was far enough away that I didn't see much of the first month of his rehab as he didn't start from a particularly sound place and whilst able to mooch around on the tracks and the fields I don't think I'd have enjoyed watching him walk across the yard. (Tbf it took him a good couple of months to be totally happy on concrete from a starting place of looking utterly crippled on it) I'll admit my preference for that horse was DIY with him coming off grass during day & someone there to give him evening feed & turn back out for me just so I could have the level of control but he rather mucked that up by becoming totally intolerant to Spring / Summer grass. (I'll admit that at many many points I absolutely would have given my right arm for access to a track for him in realistic day to day travel distance though) I didn't enjoy giving up control & him being on full livery due to distance when I had to move him somewhere an hour away as a last ditch PTS avoidance strategy, esp as they often got rugging decisions wrong (to the point sometimes horse was either tucked up & shivering or too hot & sweating, sadly he was a horse who couldn't just be left naked) and they also sometimes forgot to give him supplements and medications to the point I created a system of labelled pots so I could monitor and kicked up such a fuss if doses were missed that they did actually start monitoring that it was being done properly. I don't think the things that were not ideal were specifically down to the place being a track, just a situation where YO was having to rely on staff quite a lot and some of the staff were more reliable than others. (I've also had traditional livery yards either being incapable of catching this horse / simply forgetting, they were also incapable of putting on or removing a grazing muzzle, would never tell me if the staff did bring him in and he was lame etc)
Current thug was thrown off an equicentral for going through the tape fencing that wasn't really giving a very good zap (I know from touching it by accident myself frequently) but I would not have stayed there long term anyway as I had no control and couldn't manage his weight in any meaningful way there (setup would have suited a poor doer really really well though). He did live at Gawsworth for about 9 months as an emergency port in a storm as we were thrown off previous yard just before lockdown. Despite having never been shod he didn't have the best developed feet in the world & did struggle with thrush on & off at the time so yes he did struggle a little with some of their tougher surfaces initially in that he seemed less confident moving on them the first few times I was able to go & see him but by the time I finally found somewhere else that would accept him he was totally happy on all their surfaces and I'll admit I've never had him as totally sound over everything as he was during the latter part of being there. He's on yet another style of track atm that probably works best for good doers but does have some poor doers that do ok with extra support / time away from the others with extra forage.
JosieSt
Member
I just wanted to come back in as the OP to say thank you so much to everyone for all the wise, balanced perspectives in your comments. This is just what I hoped for: for there to be available some balance of the good and the bad experiences, to help inform the next person like me looking for information to inform their difficult decisions. Thank you.
moorhillhorses
Well-Known Member
This is so sadSharing this because I believe it's the right thing to do
Jasper
Almost exactly a year ago, my horse Jasper – a gorgeous, kind, curious, friendly, and exceptionally well-bred boy (by a grand prix showjumper, out of the offspring of world champion Claret) –...josiewrites.weebly.com
ameeyal
Well-Known Member
I’m so sorry for your lose, it is so heart breaking to loose a horse.
what I do know is that Beth like her or hate her,she absolutely cares for all of the horses on her track as if they were her own horse, she does everything she can to make the horses life more enriched when vets have given up on them , and it is not a easy fix, and it can be to much for some horses and their owners,which is what you have encountered. I would trust gawsworth with any of my horses, they know what they are doing. I will probably get slated for taking their side , but it needs to be said.
what I do know is that Beth like her or hate her,she absolutely cares for all of the horses on her track as if they were her own horse, she does everything she can to make the horses life more enriched when vets have given up on them , and it is not a easy fix, and it can be to much for some horses and their owners,which is what you have encountered. I would trust gawsworth with any of my horses, they know what they are doing. I will probably get slated for taking their side , but it needs to be said.
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