SEL
Well-Known Member
Do you know her in person? She has a very strong FB following but that isn't the same as actually seeing someone work.
Gawsworth Track Livery
- Thread starter JosieSt
- Start date
- Status
Bellaboo18
Well-Known Member
You're entitled to your opinion.
I wonder if you think the setup suits *all* horses though?
MuddyMonster
Well-Known Member
So very sorry for your loss 
RIP Jasper. X
Having been a livery on a track system (not GW), I'd be very, very cautious about putting another of mine on a track system.
I ended moving mine due to concerns he just wasn't doing well/on vet's advice & even then, I got alot of opinions that I was doing the wrong thing. Horse started to improve almost immediately thankfully but reading this thread makes me appreciate once more, how lucky I was.
RIP Jasper. X Having been a livery on a track system (not GW), I'd be very, very cautious about putting another of mine on a track system.
I ended moving mine due to concerns he just wasn't doing well/on vet's advice & even then, I got alot of opinions that I was doing the wrong thing. Horse started to improve almost immediately thankfully but reading this thread makes me appreciate once more, how lucky I was.
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Peglo
Well-Known Member
So sorry for your loss. What a heartbreaking read. RIP Jasper.
poacher82
Well-Known Member
Purely out of curiosity... are any of these track livery places accepting of shod horses and/or horses in work? Or are they all for barefoot rehabs and retirees, which seem to come with help and advice ranging in usefulness/kindness/knowledge?
I think I like the basic concept in terms of the horse moving, roaming, foraging etc more, but everything I've seen seems to be aimed at non-ridden horses and I can't quite work out why you couldn't have 'normal' working horses on a track livery - I know plenty of individuals make their own tracks. Have I missed something?
I think I like the basic concept in terms of the horse moving, roaming, foraging etc more, but everything I've seen seems to be aimed at non-ridden horses and I can't quite work out why you couldn't have 'normal' working horses on a track livery - I know plenty of individuals make their own tracks. Have I missed something?
SEL
Well-Known Member
There's one near me that has ridden horses - but all unshod.
They don't have much hard surfaces though which is a nightmare in heavy rain.
Fjord
Well-Known Member
I am so very sorry for the loss of your beautiful boy.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
I think groups on tracks would be more risky with shoes involved. Even just with our 2 we were careful to have bigger corners etc.
expanding_horizon
Well-Known Member
I think the most common reason for tracking land is to lessen access to grass whilst encouraging horses to move more, so often done for weight control with any type of horse in any situation.
There are lots of different types of track livery. Most of the well known ones only have barefoot horses. Some of the horses wear boots some of the time whilst rehabbing. Some track liveries have ridden horses and riding facilities. Some focus on rehab only. Some are long term livery yards. Some people set up their own tracks on private land.
planete
Well-Known Member
My pony is at a track livery. I ride three times a week usually and am building up slowly in order to get his bare feet used to the increased work. I am also phasing out the use of boots as we go. A really good barefoot trimmer is a great asset to acihieve this, I could not do this without ours. No hind shoes are allowed to minimise potential injuries among herd members. There is absolutely nothing to stop a grass kept barefoot horse from being ridden. The unridden horses are mostly very young or very old or have owners who prefer to practice ground work and just be with their horse without riding, some clicker train or practice natural horsemanship. From what I see some amateur owners who work full time do not have the leisure or the knowledge to keep their horses trained and exercised enough to make them reliable mounts and wisely opt to enjoy their horse in a way that makes them feel safe and happy.
Maxine67
Official Waffle Counter 🤣
What a heartbreaking story, I'm so sorry for your loss
scats
Well-Known Member
You won’t get slated. Everyone is entitled to share their opinion and others should respect that.
I am interested in GTL’s response, and she very much should be able to come and have her say. I have a friend who sent a horse there for a while and was very happy with the experience.
But I am fully in the ‘one size doesn’t fit it all’ camp, and I wonder if this was a horse who wasn’t showing the normal expected improvements, or who simply had an issue that was missed by GTL. Things sadly do get missed. Even vets make mistakes.
Until GTL contribute with their side of the story, we only have the OP’s experience to go by.
webble
Well-Known Member
She has posted a few passive aggressive comments on Facebook
scats
Well-Known Member
I saw that just before. It would be far more professional if she responded to it factually rather than putting cryptic little posts up. I lose all respect for people who post that kind of rubbish in a professional context.
SusieT
Well-Known Member
It is a a very sad outcome. Can I ask- did you consider calling a vet when you saw your horse losing weight/with sore feet? I appreciate the yard owner was telling you one thing and I am assuming you are maybe quite a novice owner relying on yard owner which can be very hard to advocate for your horse.
Gawsworth_Track
New User
My name is Bethan Thornicroft, I own and run Gawsworth track livery alongside my husband Daniel Thornicroft, we have been operating for 6 years but have been at our current purpose built track system livery/rehab facility for 2 years.
We offer a fully surfaced grass free track system aimed at horses wanting a more natural life away from stables, laminitis rehab as well as barefoot rehab for navicular and other lameness issues.
Ms Stewart contacted myself via telephone in early June of 2023, she told me about her 11 year old horse Jasper who had been diagnosed with a plethora of hoof and lameness issues (I have copies of his scans and veterinary report which documents his pre existing issues ).
Ms Stewart had explained to me how she’d already attempted the traditional methods of rehab for Jasper with vets and remedial shoes which ended up with him being on months of box rest which resulted in him becoming dangerous to handle.
She did research regarding barefoot rehab and wanted to try it here at GTL (gawsworth track livery), I stressed to Ms Stewart that barefoot rehab is a long and slow process and sometimes things can get worse before they get better when the shoes are removed.
Ms Stewart was happy to go ahead and Jasper arrived with us on 29th July 2023.
His feet were indeed in a very bad shape with lots of contraction and deformity from very severe side bone.
He came to us with his shoes already removed.
To begin with (early August time) Jasper was doing really well, exploring the track and making friends, I kept Ms Stewart updated with text messages, WhatsApp messages and also there were posts I made publicly on the GTL Facebook page.
On the 14th August I text ms Stewart and informed her that Jasper seemed a bit cold with a lot of heavy rain that had come, I informed her I’d put one of our spare rugs on him (she didn’t leave a rug with him, we did ask her but she said he wouldn’t need one) I asked if she could have one delivered to us which she agreed to.
On the 19th August I whatsapped this message to ms Stewart
“Hi Josie, just thought I’d give you a little update.
Jasper has lost a bit of weight which is really quite normal when horses come here, all the moving about, settling in, finding where the hay is ect.
We expect him to regain it over the coming weeks, we could hard feed him but it’s an added cost to you and him being on the leaner side will be more beneficial for his feet but it’s your decision if you’d like him feeding although we do find once they are fully settled they easily put the weight back on with just the hay.
He’s a little footsore as to be expected also, we havnt booted him as of yet as he’s still getting around ok but it’s something we continue to monitor.
His poo’s are a little loose, we did note that he came with loose poo’s but we put this down to being in a new place and the travelling .
We do find some horses when they move over onto a hay diet they get what’s called “free fecal water syndrome” it doesn’t seem to effect them and we have noticed that after a time their gut seems to be able to manage the hay diet better, we think it takes time for their gut biome to regenerate all the good bacteria they need.
I know some of this may sound worrying but it’s all pretty normal for us for new horses I just wanted to let you know so there was no shock/worry when you come and visit him. X”
She replied
“Thanks so much for the update (and the warning), and sorry just getting back to you now (crazy day). Thanks also for telling me it's normal early on... My heart stopped for a second when I saw your missed call... Brain jumped to disaster!
He's always been quick to drop weight, and he's used to grass or ad lib hay without having to move for it (and with large hole haynets...and he got through a lot of hay). Could it be an option for him to come into a pen and have it free overnight for a bit or something, or would that just delay him adjusting do you think?
He's also always had runny poos when he's stressed in any way, and he's a quiet stresser. They were really good before he moved, but doesn't surprise me they're not now. Are you happy just to keep an eye on it for a bit?
With his feet, what's your advice? I obviously don't want him to be uncomfortable...
Planning to come see him weekend after next, if that's OK.
Thanks so much again xx“
I replied
“The only thing with feeding him in the barn is he will start to linger and wait for it and won’t move, best thing is to just leave him to it really, he’s a young, healthy horse who is capable of finding his food x”
Ms Stewart replied
“OK, that makes sense. Happy to trust your system
”
I then sent her some voice notes explaining how moving to a track system and having to move around the track from hay net to hay net it’s very normal for them to drop some weight and that once he’s found his place in the herd he will regain it, she replied saying that was all fine and make sense.
She then replied to the voice notes with
“So grateful he's with you x“
Jasper had his first trim with us on the 29th August, after his 1st trim with us his feet looked much more balanced and even.
On the 31st August I decided he did need hoof boots in front to keep him more comfortable as he progressed through the adjustment to barefoot rehab/living, all of which is very normal with what we do here and I made Ms Stewart aware that boots and pads may be needed at some point.
Jasper had arrived with us with a runny bum which had persisted for a little while whilst with us, on the 1st of September I whatsapped ms Stewart a picture of a healthy normal poo Jasper had just done and also a picture of him stood in the barn.
We offer a fully surfaced grass free track system aimed at horses wanting a more natural life away from stables, laminitis rehab as well as barefoot rehab for navicular and other lameness issues.
Ms Stewart contacted myself via telephone in early June of 2023, she told me about her 11 year old horse Jasper who had been diagnosed with a plethora of hoof and lameness issues (I have copies of his scans and veterinary report which documents his pre existing issues ).
Ms Stewart had explained to me how she’d already attempted the traditional methods of rehab for Jasper with vets and remedial shoes which ended up with him being on months of box rest which resulted in him becoming dangerous to handle.
She did research regarding barefoot rehab and wanted to try it here at GTL (gawsworth track livery), I stressed to Ms Stewart that barefoot rehab is a long and slow process and sometimes things can get worse before they get better when the shoes are removed.
Ms Stewart was happy to go ahead and Jasper arrived with us on 29th July 2023.
His feet were indeed in a very bad shape with lots of contraction and deformity from very severe side bone.
He came to us with his shoes already removed.
To begin with (early August time) Jasper was doing really well, exploring the track and making friends, I kept Ms Stewart updated with text messages, WhatsApp messages and also there were posts I made publicly on the GTL Facebook page.
On the 14th August I text ms Stewart and informed her that Jasper seemed a bit cold with a lot of heavy rain that had come, I informed her I’d put one of our spare rugs on him (she didn’t leave a rug with him, we did ask her but she said he wouldn’t need one) I asked if she could have one delivered to us which she agreed to.
On the 19th August I whatsapped this message to ms Stewart
“Hi Josie, just thought I’d give you a little update.
Jasper has lost a bit of weight which is really quite normal when horses come here, all the moving about, settling in, finding where the hay is ect.
We expect him to regain it over the coming weeks, we could hard feed him but it’s an added cost to you and him being on the leaner side will be more beneficial for his feet but it’s your decision if you’d like him feeding although we do find once they are fully settled they easily put the weight back on with just the hay.
He’s a little footsore as to be expected also, we havnt booted him as of yet as he’s still getting around ok but it’s something we continue to monitor.
His poo’s are a little loose, we did note that he came with loose poo’s but we put this down to being in a new place and the travelling .
We do find some horses when they move over onto a hay diet they get what’s called “free fecal water syndrome” it doesn’t seem to effect them and we have noticed that after a time their gut seems to be able to manage the hay diet better, we think it takes time for their gut biome to regenerate all the good bacteria they need.
I know some of this may sound worrying but it’s all pretty normal for us for new horses I just wanted to let you know so there was no shock/worry when you come and visit him. X”
She replied
“Thanks so much for the update (and the warning), and sorry just getting back to you now (crazy day). Thanks also for telling me it's normal early on... My heart stopped for a second when I saw your missed call... Brain jumped to disaster!
He's always been quick to drop weight, and he's used to grass or ad lib hay without having to move for it (and with large hole haynets...and he got through a lot of hay). Could it be an option for him to come into a pen and have it free overnight for a bit or something, or would that just delay him adjusting do you think?
He's also always had runny poos when he's stressed in any way, and he's a quiet stresser. They were really good before he moved, but doesn't surprise me they're not now. Are you happy just to keep an eye on it for a bit?
With his feet, what's your advice? I obviously don't want him to be uncomfortable...
Planning to come see him weekend after next, if that's OK.
Thanks so much again xx“
I replied
“The only thing with feeding him in the barn is he will start to linger and wait for it and won’t move, best thing is to just leave him to it really, he’s a young, healthy horse who is capable of finding his food x”
Ms Stewart replied
“OK, that makes sense. Happy to trust your system
”I then sent her some voice notes explaining how moving to a track system and having to move around the track from hay net to hay net it’s very normal for them to drop some weight and that once he’s found his place in the herd he will regain it, she replied saying that was all fine and make sense.
She then replied to the voice notes with
“So grateful he's with you x“
Jasper had his first trim with us on the 29th August, after his 1st trim with us his feet looked much more balanced and even.
On the 31st August I decided he did need hoof boots in front to keep him more comfortable as he progressed through the adjustment to barefoot rehab/living, all of which is very normal with what we do here and I made Ms Stewart aware that boots and pads may be needed at some point.
Jasper had arrived with us with a runny bum which had persisted for a little while whilst with us, on the 1st of September I whatsapped ms Stewart a picture of a healthy normal poo Jasper had just done and also a picture of him stood in the barn.
Gawsworth_Track
New User
She replied with
“He does look so thin”
I replied with
“He’s lost his fat stores off of his top line for sure, but like you said he’s a stressy type, we can give him hard feeds if you’d like? X”
Ms Stewart replied
“ Maybe. A friend's coming with me tomorrow, will confer with her x”
The next day (2nd sept) she came along with her friend Libby keating, we had Jasper up in the barn where he was eating hay from a hay box, myself, ms Stewart and Ms keating spent 1.5 hours talking about Jasper with Ms Keating saying to her friend ms Stewart that she had done barefoot rehab/transition with her horse and Jasper looks totally fine and normal for this point in his rehab journey.
During this visit the new hoof boots were delivered and both ms Stewart and ms Keating assisted me with fitting the boots and pads to Jasper, Ms Stewart led him around the yard and we all agreed he looked very comfortable in his new boots.
3rd sept
Josie and her mum came to visit Jasper again, they had him on the car park hand grazing him in the hedgerows of the car park, due to his previous loose stools I politely requested she didn’t graze him as the grass could upset his stomach again, ms Stewart replied with “he’s only having a little bit Bethan!”.
On this day 3rd sept we were hosting my sons birthday party so apart from the chat about the hand grazing I didn’t really have the time to stop and talk and as we had spent 1.5hrs discussing things the previous day I thought everything was fine and that Ms Stewart was happy with how things were going.
The evening of the 3rd sept at approx 9pm at night I received a WhatsApp from Ms Stewart saying
“ Sorry I didn't see you to say bye! Bit upsetting seeing how immobile he is, and he was really listless at first. Let me know how he gets on with the boots the next few days, and let's add hard feed if he's not picked up any weight in the next couple of weeks? X”
I tried to telephone call her but she didn’t as we and sent a message saying
“ Sorry! In the bath! Feels wrong to take a call
”
At this point I realised that Ms Stewart wasn’t going to cope well mentally and emotionally with this barefoot rehab journey so I decided I no longer wanted to offer the rehab here at GTL, I sent Ms Stewart a voice note explaining this.
She replied to the voice note with
“I really wasn't expecting that. Will get back to you ASAP. I'm very sorry you want us to leave. I will try to find another good place for him as soon as possible.”
I replied with
“ It’s really nothing personal, I think you and Jasper are lovely but I have to think of your mental well being and it’s clear you’re not coping with the challenges that come along with barefoot rehab.
There’s no rush and of course we will continue to look after Jasper fully.”
She replied
“ It's definitely hard, but I will cope with it. But it has to be somewhere that works for us all, you included. Thanks very much for the no rush. I'll let you know as soon as I can find somewhere.”
On the 5th sept I decided that Jasper did need hard feeding so I sent a message with a picture of Jasper eating from a feed bucket saying
“ Hi just to let you know we are hard feeding Jasper, it’s £1 per day I hope that’s ok? X
She replied
“Of course. Thank you.
I'll also be in touch later with a plan (hopefully)
x”
I said
“Perfect that’s fine x”
Wednesday 6th sept Ms Stewart whatsapped me and said
“Hi. I will collect him on Saturday 16th, if that's ok.
Will you work out the refund for this month plus deposit, or shall I?“
I replied
“ No worries that’s fine
Yes we’ll figure it ok once he’s been collected
We really hope you get Jasper a place where he can heal fully and you are both happy.
I’m sincerest apologies it has t worked out here with us x”
She replied
“ Thank you. I hope so too. X”
Friday 8th sept
Ms Stewart whatsapped me saying
“ Hello. Would it be ok if I got Jasper on Monday 18th instead? Apologies for the change”
I replied
“ Yes that’s fine”
From approx 7th sept we’d started bringing Jasper into a stable in the barn over night to allow him loose hay away from the rest of the herd as I was aware that Ms Stewart was concerned he’d lost weight from her previous messages.
11th sept I whatsapped Ms Stewart
“ Good morning Jasper has runny eyes, do you want a vet to see him or do you want me to monitor and bathe them?”
I then sent 2 images of his eyes, one before cleaning and one after cleaning.
She replied
“Thank you. Could you monitor and bathe, and let me know if not cleared up in a few days and I will get vet out?“
“He does look so thin”
I replied with
“He’s lost his fat stores off of his top line for sure, but like you said he’s a stressy type, we can give him hard feeds if you’d like? X”
Ms Stewart replied
“ Maybe. A friend's coming with me tomorrow, will confer with her x”
The next day (2nd sept) she came along with her friend Libby keating, we had Jasper up in the barn where he was eating hay from a hay box, myself, ms Stewart and Ms keating spent 1.5 hours talking about Jasper with Ms Keating saying to her friend ms Stewart that she had done barefoot rehab/transition with her horse and Jasper looks totally fine and normal for this point in his rehab journey.
During this visit the new hoof boots were delivered and both ms Stewart and ms Keating assisted me with fitting the boots and pads to Jasper, Ms Stewart led him around the yard and we all agreed he looked very comfortable in his new boots.
3rd sept
Josie and her mum came to visit Jasper again, they had him on the car park hand grazing him in the hedgerows of the car park, due to his previous loose stools I politely requested she didn’t graze him as the grass could upset his stomach again, ms Stewart replied with “he’s only having a little bit Bethan!”.
On this day 3rd sept we were hosting my sons birthday party so apart from the chat about the hand grazing I didn’t really have the time to stop and talk and as we had spent 1.5hrs discussing things the previous day I thought everything was fine and that Ms Stewart was happy with how things were going.
The evening of the 3rd sept at approx 9pm at night I received a WhatsApp from Ms Stewart saying
“ Sorry I didn't see you to say bye! Bit upsetting seeing how immobile he is, and he was really listless at first. Let me know how he gets on with the boots the next few days, and let's add hard feed if he's not picked up any weight in the next couple of weeks? X”
I tried to telephone call her but she didn’t as we and sent a message saying
“ Sorry! In the bath! Feels wrong to take a call
”At this point I realised that Ms Stewart wasn’t going to cope well mentally and emotionally with this barefoot rehab journey so I decided I no longer wanted to offer the rehab here at GTL, I sent Ms Stewart a voice note explaining this.
She replied to the voice note with
“I really wasn't expecting that. Will get back to you ASAP. I'm very sorry you want us to leave. I will try to find another good place for him as soon as possible.”
I replied with
“ It’s really nothing personal, I think you and Jasper are lovely but I have to think of your mental well being and it’s clear you’re not coping with the challenges that come along with barefoot rehab.
There’s no rush and of course we will continue to look after Jasper fully.”
She replied
“ It's definitely hard, but I will cope with it. But it has to be somewhere that works for us all, you included. Thanks very much for the no rush. I'll let you know as soon as I can find somewhere.”
On the 5th sept I decided that Jasper did need hard feeding so I sent a message with a picture of Jasper eating from a feed bucket saying
“ Hi just to let you know we are hard feeding Jasper, it’s £1 per day I hope that’s ok? X
She replied
“Of course. Thank you.
I'll also be in touch later with a plan (hopefully)
x”
I said
“Perfect that’s fine x”
Wednesday 6th sept Ms Stewart whatsapped me and said
“Hi. I will collect him on Saturday 16th, if that's ok.
Will you work out the refund for this month plus deposit, or shall I?“
I replied
“ No worries that’s fine
Yes we’ll figure it ok once he’s been collected
We really hope you get Jasper a place where he can heal fully and you are both happy.
I’m sincerest apologies it has t worked out here with us x”
She replied
“ Thank you. I hope so too. X”
Friday 8th sept
Ms Stewart whatsapped me saying
“ Hello. Would it be ok if I got Jasper on Monday 18th instead? Apologies for the change”
I replied
“ Yes that’s fine”
From approx 7th sept we’d started bringing Jasper into a stable in the barn over night to allow him loose hay away from the rest of the herd as I was aware that Ms Stewart was concerned he’d lost weight from her previous messages.
11th sept I whatsapped Ms Stewart
“ Good morning Jasper has runny eyes, do you want a vet to see him or do you want me to monitor and bathe them?”
I then sent 2 images of his eyes, one before cleaning and one after cleaning.
She replied
“Thank you. Could you monitor and bathe, and let me know if not cleared up in a few days and I will get vet out?“
Gawsworth_Track
New User
I replied
“Yes sure no probs”
Wednesday 13th sept is discovered that Jasper had blown and abscess in his front left hoof, I immediately send a picture to Ms Stewart and a voice note explaining what had happened and also explaining that abscessing is common when going through barefoot rehab.
In the voice note I also explained that I suspected him to be brewing and abscess in his right hoof, I explained that it’s rare to have them in both front feet and the same time but I was pretty sure that is what was happening and I have her the choice of letting it rupture naturally or having a vet to come dig it out.
She voice noted back saying she would prefer for it to burst naturally.
I sent another voice note saying I was going to move him to a small paddock at the side of the track as he wasn’t moving around much due to the abscesses and he needs to be able to eat.
During this voice note I again asked her if she’d like a vet to him but she did not.
Note to say I’d offered her 3 times for a vet to see him at this point 1 for his runny eyes and twice for the abscesses.
She then messaged with
“ I don't suppose you have any bute you could give him? I'd pay for it obviously. They used to say they took longer to come out if you give bute but that's not the advice anymore”
I replied
“ The only issue with bute is it will take the inflammation down and which will slow the rupture of it but it’s your call”
She replied
“ Could you give bute please? If he moves more it will help.”
I replied
“Ok will do”
She replied
“Thanks very much”
I then sent her a picture of Jasper in the paddock eating from a feed bucket with a big hay net and his rug on
“In paddock, hay net, rug, feed and bute”
She replied
“Thankyou”
14th sept I sent Ms Stewart and image of jaspers right hoof saying
“ Area on his coronet looking like where another one could blow”
She replied
“ Keeping my fingers crossed it will. Is he moving around a bit more?”
I replied
“ it’s tricky to tell as he’s in the paddock, he’s mooching around grazing”
Friday 15th sept ms Stewart whatsapped me
“Any change today”
I replied
“ We are away tonight but Sarah has said it still hasn’t blown unfortunately.”
She replied with a crying emoji face and “thanks”
I replied
“ What are the plans for Monday?”
She replied
“ I'll come get him late morning/midday ish”
I replied
“ Ok that’s fine, I’ll have him up in the barn with his boots and pads on ready”
She replied
“Great thanks”
Saturday 16th sept I whatsapped Ms Stewart
“ Update on Jasper, still no rupture of suspected abscess on right fore but the bulge at the coronet is still there.
Front left was a considerable abscess as the exit point is quite big.
He does seem more comfortable walking around the paddock but he’s lost some weight which I think is because he was in pain in the stages the abcsess was brewing.
We’re continuing keeping him in the paddock with twice feeds per day and a large holed hay net continually as well as being rugged at night time. hes also on 1 bute per day”
She replied
“ Thank you. Keeping fingers crossed the other goes soon. Does the exit point on the first seem to be clean/healing OK?”
I replied
“ It looks pretty gnarly but they always do, He does seem brighter though, It explains why he was so uncomfortable with that brewing”
She replied
“ Yes, definitely does… Just bizarre/bad luck getting two at once! Do you still think the other is one?”
I replied
“ Yeah I’ve only seen it once before with a horse who had one in each back foot at the same time.
I’m not as sure as I was now because his comfort levels have much improved since the other ones has now seemed to have fully drained.
I’ve really tried my best to get more weight on him before he goes but I think the pain from the abcsess has really taken it out of him
”
She replied
“ Bless him, the poor lad. Does explain a lot though as you say.
Could be just the bute that's got him a bit brighter... But hopefully not and he'll be good soon... Either way.”
Monday morning 18th sept
I sent Ms Stewart a video of myself leading Jasper down the track to the barn ready for his collection, I was surprised to see he was walking really quite well and looked bright and positive, along with the video I said
“ Walking well this morning boot free so maybe no other abcsess coming”
But when I got him down to the barn and picked out his feet I found a rupture hole on his sole at the toe area, when I pressed on it some blood oozed out, I videoed this and sent it to Ms Stewart and said
“No turns out there was one after all”
In the video I said I would clean it up and apply a poultice, I sent her a picture of him poulticed.
Ms Stewart ended up being quite late collecting Jasper so I wasn’t there as I had to be somewhere else, my husband Dan was there to help load him up and say good bye.
As it shows in the video he was walking really well.
I then sent Ms Stewart this message
“ Dear Josie,
We hope you and Jasper made it home safely and are both well. Our thoughts are with you as Jasper begins his future rehab, and we sincerely hope it leads to a successful return to full ridden work.
Jasper has truly been a pleasure to look after, and we want you to know that we are genuinely sorry that the rehab didn’t work out here with us at Gawsworth Track Livery. Please know that you’re always welcome to contact us for advice, and we’re here to support you and Jasper in any way we can.
I’m very sorry I wasn’t personally there to see you off, but I hope Dan helped you during this transition.
Also, please send us the bank details where you’d like to have the remainder of September’s livery fees and the £500 deposit paid into, minus the feed and medication costs.
Take care,
Bethan and Dan”
She replied
“ Thank you very much for your kind message, and for the care and attention you paid to Jasper while he was with you. And for poulticing his foot this morning! Can't believe it was two, and the timing of it going, but very glad it's gone.
Please thank Dan for his help getting us on the box today too!
Bank details: C Stewart, sort code ######, account#####.
Thank you again.
Josie”
For someone who was so unhappy with the care I gave to her horse she didn’t make that known to me and thanked me “for all the care and attention
I replied
“ You’re very welcome, I’ll start the refund process tomorrow but it can take up to 10 working days for it to clear your end o hope that’s ok?”
She replied
“ That's fine. Thank you.”
Tuesday 26th sept Ms Stewart whatsapped me
“ Hello Bethan. My refund hasn't come through yet. Could you confirm when you sent it please? Thanks.”
It hadn’t been 10 working days at this point
I replied
“ Hi please accept my apologies, we’ve had an unexpected vet bill, it will be with you on the 1st October
”
She replied
“ OK but please be sure it is, as I have unexpected vets bills too. Thanks.”
I replied
“ Yes will 100% be there”
She replied
“Thanks”
28th sept I whatsapped ms Stewart
“ Good morning Josie you should get a refund of £678 today,
£500 deposit
£200 remainder of sept less 14 days of feed (£14) and bute (£7.50)
I hope that’s to your satisfaction?
”
She didn’t reply.
It was then on the 29th November I see a comment on another track livery’s Facebook page from Libby Keating saying ..
“ Libby Keating
I can see how hard it is. But I can see some of the other side. It takes a lot of trust to send your horse away, not be able to see them regularly and in an unplanned way - I have a yearling in this situation now and it's tough. My other horse is at home and I can be sure his needs are met directly.
I also have a friend who sent a horse to a very well regarded track livery and had it returned with an abscess so severe (and untreated) it had progressed to Quittor and the horse had to be put to sleep. She trusted in a livery owner hours away and lost her horse.
So while I think your livery situation is ideal, it's not for everyone and if the track is not well run then it is a recipe for disaster.”
I was horrified by this so I tried to call Ms Stewart but she would answer the phone, I sent her a screen shot of the comment and asked her to give me a call she replied with
“Sorry no I can’t”
I replied with
“ I’m so so sorry Jasper has been put to sleep but we did everything we could here, he was not left untreated by us in anyway, I’m so so sad about this and even worse that I’m being blamed for it?
You know I kept you fully updated?“
She replied
“I will make my own statement about it when I am ready.“
I replied
“ Ok that’s fine and again please accept my sincerest condolences
”
It was at this point I decided to block her from the GTL Facebook page as I’d rather this be sorted between ourselves rather than on Facebook.
9th January 2024 I then find a blog post written by ms Stewart basically blaming me for jaspers death and making out I never kept her informed or updated on anything that was going on with Jasper, as you can see from the corresponded she was very much aware of what was going on and she never wanted the vet for him.
The comments stating I wasn’t there to talk to are an absolute out and out lie, I was there for both times she’s visited, the first visit I spent over 1.5hrs with ms Stewart and Ms Keating, the next day when ms Stewart came with her mother I was only able to speak to her briefly as I mentioned futher up in this statement.
Jasper had many many problems before coming to us, we gave him a chance but it didn’t work out.
Abscesses can happen anywhere and to try and put blame on myself for causing said abscesses is very unfair as I’ve mentioned his feet were really in a very poor state when he arrived with us and he’d been in shoes for a very long time prior to coming to us.
Id like to make it known that we kept Ms Stewart updated and involved in all the decisions regarding his care whilst here
“Yes sure no probs”
Wednesday 13th sept is discovered that Jasper had blown and abscess in his front left hoof, I immediately send a picture to Ms Stewart and a voice note explaining what had happened and also explaining that abscessing is common when going through barefoot rehab.
In the voice note I also explained that I suspected him to be brewing and abscess in his right hoof, I explained that it’s rare to have them in both front feet and the same time but I was pretty sure that is what was happening and I have her the choice of letting it rupture naturally or having a vet to come dig it out.
She voice noted back saying she would prefer for it to burst naturally.
I sent another voice note saying I was going to move him to a small paddock at the side of the track as he wasn’t moving around much due to the abscesses and he needs to be able to eat.
During this voice note I again asked her if she’d like a vet to him but she did not.
Note to say I’d offered her 3 times for a vet to see him at this point 1 for his runny eyes and twice for the abscesses.
She then messaged with
“ I don't suppose you have any bute you could give him? I'd pay for it obviously. They used to say they took longer to come out if you give bute but that's not the advice anymore”
I replied
“ The only issue with bute is it will take the inflammation down and which will slow the rupture of it but it’s your call”
She replied
“ Could you give bute please? If he moves more it will help.”
I replied
“Ok will do”
She replied
“Thanks very much”
I then sent her a picture of Jasper in the paddock eating from a feed bucket with a big hay net and his rug on
“In paddock, hay net, rug, feed and bute”
She replied
“Thankyou”
14th sept I sent Ms Stewart and image of jaspers right hoof saying
“ Area on his coronet looking like where another one could blow”
She replied
“ Keeping my fingers crossed it will. Is he moving around a bit more?”
I replied
“ it’s tricky to tell as he’s in the paddock, he’s mooching around grazing”
Friday 15th sept ms Stewart whatsapped me
“Any change today”
I replied
“ We are away tonight but Sarah has said it still hasn’t blown unfortunately.”
She replied with a crying emoji face and “thanks”
I replied
“ What are the plans for Monday?”
She replied
“ I'll come get him late morning/midday ish”
I replied
“ Ok that’s fine, I’ll have him up in the barn with his boots and pads on ready”
She replied
“Great thanks”
Saturday 16th sept I whatsapped Ms Stewart
“ Update on Jasper, still no rupture of suspected abscess on right fore but the bulge at the coronet is still there.
Front left was a considerable abscess as the exit point is quite big.
He does seem more comfortable walking around the paddock but he’s lost some weight which I think is because he was in pain in the stages the abcsess was brewing.
We’re continuing keeping him in the paddock with twice feeds per day and a large holed hay net continually as well as being rugged at night time. hes also on 1 bute per day”
She replied
“ Thank you. Keeping fingers crossed the other goes soon. Does the exit point on the first seem to be clean/healing OK?”
I replied
“ It looks pretty gnarly but they always do, He does seem brighter though, It explains why he was so uncomfortable with that brewing”
She replied
“ Yes, definitely does… Just bizarre/bad luck getting two at once! Do you still think the other is one?”
I replied
“ Yeah I’ve only seen it once before with a horse who had one in each back foot at the same time.
I’m not as sure as I was now because his comfort levels have much improved since the other ones has now seemed to have fully drained.
I’ve really tried my best to get more weight on him before he goes but I think the pain from the abcsess has really taken it out of him
”She replied
“ Bless him, the poor lad. Does explain a lot though as you say.
Could be just the bute that's got him a bit brighter... But hopefully not and he'll be good soon... Either way.”
Monday morning 18th sept
I sent Ms Stewart a video of myself leading Jasper down the track to the barn ready for his collection, I was surprised to see he was walking really quite well and looked bright and positive, along with the video I said
“ Walking well this morning boot free so maybe no other abcsess coming”
But when I got him down to the barn and picked out his feet I found a rupture hole on his sole at the toe area, when I pressed on it some blood oozed out, I videoed this and sent it to Ms Stewart and said
“No turns out there was one after all”
In the video I said I would clean it up and apply a poultice, I sent her a picture of him poulticed.
Ms Stewart ended up being quite late collecting Jasper so I wasn’t there as I had to be somewhere else, my husband Dan was there to help load him up and say good bye.
As it shows in the video he was walking really well.
I then sent Ms Stewart this message
“ Dear Josie,
We hope you and Jasper made it home safely and are both well. Our thoughts are with you as Jasper begins his future rehab, and we sincerely hope it leads to a successful return to full ridden work.
Jasper has truly been a pleasure to look after, and we want you to know that we are genuinely sorry that the rehab didn’t work out here with us at Gawsworth Track Livery. Please know that you’re always welcome to contact us for advice, and we’re here to support you and Jasper in any way we can.
I’m very sorry I wasn’t personally there to see you off, but I hope Dan helped you during this transition.
Also, please send us the bank details where you’d like to have the remainder of September’s livery fees and the £500 deposit paid into, minus the feed and medication costs.
Take care,
Bethan and Dan”
She replied
“ Thank you very much for your kind message, and for the care and attention you paid to Jasper while he was with you. And for poulticing his foot this morning! Can't believe it was two, and the timing of it going, but very glad it's gone.
Please thank Dan for his help getting us on the box today too!
Bank details: C Stewart, sort code ######, account#####.
Thank you again.
Josie”
For someone who was so unhappy with the care I gave to her horse she didn’t make that known to me and thanked me “for all the care and attention
I replied
“ You’re very welcome, I’ll start the refund process tomorrow but it can take up to 10 working days for it to clear your end o hope that’s ok?”
She replied
“ That's fine. Thank you.”
Tuesday 26th sept Ms Stewart whatsapped me
“ Hello Bethan. My refund hasn't come through yet. Could you confirm when you sent it please? Thanks.”
It hadn’t been 10 working days at this point
I replied
“ Hi please accept my apologies, we’ve had an unexpected vet bill, it will be with you on the 1st October
”She replied
“ OK but please be sure it is, as I have unexpected vets bills too. Thanks.”
I replied
“ Yes will 100% be there”
She replied
“Thanks”
28th sept I whatsapped ms Stewart
“ Good morning Josie you should get a refund of £678 today,
£500 deposit
£200 remainder of sept less 14 days of feed (£14) and bute (£7.50)
I hope that’s to your satisfaction?
”She didn’t reply.
It was then on the 29th November I see a comment on another track livery’s Facebook page from Libby Keating saying ..
“ Libby Keating
I can see how hard it is. But I can see some of the other side. It takes a lot of trust to send your horse away, not be able to see them regularly and in an unplanned way - I have a yearling in this situation now and it's tough. My other horse is at home and I can be sure his needs are met directly.
I also have a friend who sent a horse to a very well regarded track livery and had it returned with an abscess so severe (and untreated) it had progressed to Quittor and the horse had to be put to sleep. She trusted in a livery owner hours away and lost her horse.
So while I think your livery situation is ideal, it's not for everyone and if the track is not well run then it is a recipe for disaster.”
I was horrified by this so I tried to call Ms Stewart but she would answer the phone, I sent her a screen shot of the comment and asked her to give me a call she replied with
“Sorry no I can’t”
I replied with
“ I’m so so sorry Jasper has been put to sleep but we did everything we could here, he was not left untreated by us in anyway, I’m so so sad about this and even worse that I’m being blamed for it?
You know I kept you fully updated?“
She replied
“I will make my own statement about it when I am ready.“
I replied
“ Ok that’s fine and again please accept my sincerest condolences
”It was at this point I decided to block her from the GTL Facebook page as I’d rather this be sorted between ourselves rather than on Facebook.
9th January 2024 I then find a blog post written by ms Stewart basically blaming me for jaspers death and making out I never kept her informed or updated on anything that was going on with Jasper, as you can see from the corresponded she was very much aware of what was going on and she never wanted the vet for him.
The comments stating I wasn’t there to talk to are an absolute out and out lie, I was there for both times she’s visited, the first visit I spent over 1.5hrs with ms Stewart and Ms Keating, the next day when ms Stewart came with her mother I was only able to speak to her briefly as I mentioned futher up in this statement.
Jasper had many many problems before coming to us, we gave him a chance but it didn’t work out.
Abscesses can happen anywhere and to try and put blame on myself for causing said abscesses is very unfair as I’ve mentioned his feet were really in a very poor state when he arrived with us and he’d been in shoes for a very long time prior to coming to us.
Id like to make it known that we kept Ms Stewart updated and involved in all the decisions regarding his care whilst here
JosieSt
Member
That question gets to the heart of why I shared Jasper's story. I was influenced by the yard owner, and I dearly wish I hadn't been.
For those wondering about GTL's point of view: Bethan contacted me yesterday threatening legal action against me if I did not take Jasper's story down. I know the post not libellous, but I told her I would publish any comment or response she would like to make alongside Jasper's story. She has not replied.
For those wondering about GTL's point of view: Bethan contacted me yesterday threatening legal action against me if I did not take Jasper's story down. I know the post not libellous, but I told her I would publish any comment or response she would like to make alongside Jasper's story. She has not replied.
YourValentine
Well-Known Member
A slight aside, on limestone - as it gets wet and dissolves it forms a weak base (sodium hydroxide, xommonly known as caustic soda = a strong base). This is why limestone quarries are so dangerous (and a good place to dispose of bodies).
Limestone, well basic lime = CaCO3 (calcium carbonate) + H2O (water) = Ca(OH)2 (calcium hydroxide/caustic lime) + CO2 (carbon dioxide) + H2O
It is possible there was a chemical interaction between the rock amd horses hooves that caused the abcesses and sore feet.
nutjob
Well-Known Member
Some people who run track livery are very controlling and you are in a difficult position as it is their property and they are doing most of the care for your horse. I looked into one near me (not GTL, and I think it's closed now) for one of mine who was retired and grass sensitive but you were actually not allowed to call a vet for your own horse as it was against their principles and you had to treat with "natural" remedies including worming. Only exception was in life threatening emergency. Also, not allowed to use your own farrier, not allowed to ride with a bit and a load of other rules. At least you knew what you were getting into and if you wanted any say about your own horse it wasn't for you.
OP I can easily see how you were put in a very difficult position, it's not just the yo but also other liveries who take their view point and it's difficult to stand up to a whole culture even if it's misguided at times. I am so sorry about your horse, it's awful when you have done something with the best of intentions and it goes wrong. Sometimes there is no easy solution.
hock
Well-Known Member
I have never met Bethan but was very excited and interested when she set up her track system. I was very seriously considering sending her a horse until I asked her a serious question on one of her posts and she reacted in such an aggressive and defensive manor I was stunned. I’m sure she is knowledgeable and her heart is in the right place but she appears to have a huge chip on her shoulder and sees any questioning (from my own research as this point) as an attack. I did end up using track system just not hers.
It speaks volumes she’s not posted yet but threatened to sue. It’s a shame as my initial thoughts were wow this is great and just what the horse world needs. The problem though with thinking you have all the answers is you can’t ask for help and you stop learning.
My horses are still all barefoot and doing great but just with a highly skilled farrier that trained for years and continues to do so.
It speaks volumes she’s not posted yet but threatened to sue. It’s a shame as my initial thoughts were wow this is great and just what the horse world needs. The problem though with thinking you have all the answers is you can’t ask for help and you stop learning.
My horses are still all barefoot and doing great but just with a highly skilled farrier that trained for years and continues to do so.
SEL
Well-Known Member
I believe GTL's track has sand on top of limestone which would be more supportive for hooves.
But thank you for this post. I'm looking at having a section of access track put in (because that doesn't need planning!) and limestone is what the local farmer recommends. I may re-think.
little_critter
Well-Known Member
I think there are some holes on your chemistry. Caustic soda is Sodium Hydroxide (NaOH)
Quicklime (CaO) can be made from limestone but it needs to be ground to a powder and greatly heated first ( ie in a massive industrial furnace)
Quarries are dangerous places but mainly due to the heavy machinery and risk of falling rocks.
I used to work in quarrying, specifically limestone quarries. When visiting them there was no mention of the risk of being dissolved, except for the one quarry that produced burnt lime (CaO) but their main concern if there was a leak in the lime tanks was the massive exothermic reaction if the lime came in contact with water.
I see no issue with using limestone as a track base.
edited to add a link to a safety data sheet for limestone, the main concern is dust in eyes/ inhalation. There is no mention of it being caustic. https://www.ejwglendinning.co.uk/downloads/Aggregate-Limestone.pdf
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ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
Limestone chippings are sold as surfacing for driveways by aggregate suppliers and as decorative toppings for garden areas in most gardens centres. They are 100% safe as a track surface, but too sharp edged unless very small, or topped with smaller stuff.
This is a dreadful thing to have happened. If I had to guess, I would say that poor Jasper was not ready for living on that surface 24/7, got extensive bruising which then abscessed, and that GTL should probably have realised that much sooner than they did.
.
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Rowreach
Adjusting my sails
I've no dog in this fight but I would say to people who have unsound horses that they can't or don't want to rehab themselves or otherwise take responsibility for and pts, if you're going to send them to retirement livery of any kind you need to at least go and visit them frequently and regularly, and then you have control over their fate and can intervene at any point.
MissTyc
Well-Known Member
Having now read both sides of this very sad story, I feel this is one of those extremely unfortunate situations that is not black and white.
It sounds like sending the horse to track livery was a last ditch attempt to save a complex medical case, but that the attempt failed. It's impossible to know that is anyone's fault per se. The owner did what they thought was best for the horse and was too far away to be personally involved in his care (and that is, after all, the purpose of FULL livery). Equally, the owner may have over-relied on non-veterinary advice, possibly also because previous advice had not helped this horse. The track livery owner probably did genuinely think they could help this horse where the traditional veterinary approach had failed ... but it sounds liked they started to panic when they realised they couldn't save the horse and they own advice had not been effective (at this point, starting to recommend a vet after all).
Maybe the horse couldn't be saved. Maybe the horse could have been saved by doing something different - I honestly think it's impossible to ever truly know. It's very sad all round.
As a personal aside, for non-metabolic horses, I greatly prefer tracks that are predominantly grass with surfaces to get out of the mud at hay and water stations. Generally, I love the concept of tracks and it can help people make the most of their space. I value my little track and credit it with enriching my horses' lives over the winter months. However, it's grass-based with moving fencelines, a very different concept from the paddock paradise concept of fully surfaced tracks with hay stations.
It sounds like sending the horse to track livery was a last ditch attempt to save a complex medical case, but that the attempt failed. It's impossible to know that is anyone's fault per se. The owner did what they thought was best for the horse and was too far away to be personally involved in his care (and that is, after all, the purpose of FULL livery). Equally, the owner may have over-relied on non-veterinary advice, possibly also because previous advice had not helped this horse. The track livery owner probably did genuinely think they could help this horse where the traditional veterinary approach had failed ... but it sounds liked they started to panic when they realised they couldn't save the horse and they own advice had not been effective (at this point, starting to recommend a vet after all).
Maybe the horse couldn't be saved. Maybe the horse could have been saved by doing something different - I honestly think it's impossible to ever truly know. It's very sad all round.
As a personal aside, for non-metabolic horses, I greatly prefer tracks that are predominantly grass with surfaces to get out of the mud at hay and water stations. Generally, I love the concept of tracks and it can help people make the most of their space. I value my little track and credit it with enriching my horses' lives over the winter months. However, it's grass-based with moving fencelines, a very different concept from the paddock paradise concept of fully surfaced tracks with hay stations.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
I'm torn over this one RR. I've seen a number of horses which were at the end of their working lives according to vets and farriers brought back into full work by a period at Rockley, which at the time was one of very few options and for many, including a friend of mine, a journey of 5 hours which was unfeasible for visiting even weekly.
I would say to anyone thinking of sending a horse away to demand weekly video side on, walk and trot, and if that isn't supplied, remove the horse.
.
Gawsworth_Track
New User
Thankyou for your opinion on this, I’d like to just reply to your comment .
We always give owners the option of a vet when there’s something going on with a horse but it’s ultimately the owners choice.
I gave Ms Stewart my own opinion on what I thought and what I’d do but it was always her choice and responsibility to make the decision.
We have a very good working relationship with our vets who are here whenever a horse needs to be seen.
There has been times I’ve had to overrule an owner and call a vet even when they’ve not wanted one.
We are not anti-vet.
As I’ve previously stated, we are deeply sad that Jasper didn’t make a full recovery from his ailments, he really was a very sweet, kind and gentle horse.
Palindrome
Well-Known Member
I think if you were offered to have the vet come and see him and you refused, then you can not blame it on the yard manager.
ETA: I have lost a much loved horse because I didn't call the vet soon enough, so I know how hard it is. I cannot know if it would have changed the outcome, but I can only blame myself for not calling the vet.
ETA: I have lost a much loved horse because I didn't call the vet soon enough, so I know how hard it is. I cannot know if it would have changed the outcome, but I can only blame myself for not calling the vet.
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