Geldings and intelligence, bravery and so on...

[Siennasong]

Hello, I'm new here and very happy to be part of this lovely community! I've realised maybe it's time to stop boring my husband to death with constant horse talk and redirect it here 😊 So for my first post I was wondering what people think of the relation to gelding and a horse's intelligence, bravery and so on? Does castration 'dumb down' a horse? Diminish his bravery? Take away his spark? Take away his ability to bond with the owner as deeply?

The reason I ask this is because there seems to be a general consensus within the horse community (that I have experienced) that a gelding can never beat a good mare, that geldings are less intelligent than mares, mares are braver than geldings, mares will try their heart out for you that bit extra (if you get them on side that is), and most of all the bond thing; most people seem to agree that if you get a bond with a mare it will be deeper than any bond you could ever get with a gelding. So this has got me thinking: if this is because of being gelded (as stallions are a whole different story) what would this mean within particularly intelligent and brave types of breeds? Would their intelligence etc cancel out the effects of castration? Some breeds are known to be 'one rider' horses who bond very deeply to their person, they are brave and highly intelligent... If this type of stallion was castrated would it turn him into the typical gelding or would these breed qualities cancel that out?

Sorry for the long post, I have been on a horse hunt for the past year concentrating on looking at mares only because of these reasons but have come across a stallion I love. If I bought him I would have him gelded and am wondering if he would lose those qualities I love in him if I did this.. I would never keep a stallion so this would lead me to having him gelded or passing him up. Anyway, this whole debate interests me so would be lovely to hear everyone's thoughts! X

 

[oldjumper]

From my experience, all horses are different - mares, geldings and colts. Bravery and 'intelligence' don't always go together - in fact from a horses point of view - the more intelligent horses would re-think what us humans are trying to train them to do! I have known geldings as brave as lions, mares who are standoffish and stallions who are gentle and friendly. Horses bond with people who care for them and spend most time with them - not just rocking up for an hour a day....or a few times a week for a ride. I would advise you to get the individual horse that you like and you feel is right for you. Gelding an animal shouldn't reduce his "intelligence", just narrow his interests in other things!

 

[PaddyMonty]

It is a well known fact that males (all species) keep at least half their brains in their nether regions. Nuff said.

 

[Amye]

I don't think gelding a horse will really reduce their intelligence - my gelding is very intelligent and picks things up extremely quicker. I think the hormones do make a difference in stallions/mares in their reactions to things and this makes geldings seem more placid in general.

Though i find female animals more aloof in general. My dogs that I have owned, the females have always been more aloof and 'sharper' whereas my male dog at the moment is so laid back he's almost horizontal.

Though there are always exceptions to the rules and everyone is an individual. If you like the stallion and he's the one for you - go for it.

 

[alainax]

I'd have thought the opposite re intelligence tbf! Although I'd say intelligence is an individual thing, regardless of sex. Concentration however may come into play. They won't have as much hormones driving them, so could possibly focus better. A mare in season or a stallion may have other thoughts.

Intelligence is not always a great thing! I have a very intelligent gelding, but sometimes it's a hindrance. Once he learns something new, he does it a lot. He anticipates you when schooling, and I spend a lot of time trying to get him to wait for me and not second guess the next movement. If you don't keep his brain busy he finds something else to keep busy with! Not the bravest soul mind you. Needs his hand held.

 

[Shay]

Every horse is an individual. Gelding does not affect that. Having said that... mares and stallions are intact and subject to hormonal change. Just like humans this can make them less predictable and less easy to handle - but not necessarily so. It can also make them more driven by their innate herd instinct than their learned human related behaviour.

A lot of what you attribute to mares can be true for some - although it is also true of some geldings too. In very general terms mares can be more difficult to handle - especially for a novice. Fewer mares make it to the top of the competition circuit - although those that do tend to be exceptional. In the wild mares have responsibility to lead the herd and so are less likely to co-operate with a human unless it is a human they also see as their leader. Their hormone cycles can mean that there are periods of time when they are harder to work with (just like us!)

For me - the old adage "Tell a gelding, negotiate with a stallion, discuss it with a mare" is generally true. I prefer geldings because of the greater consistency and the generally greater willingness to work with humans. But that isn't true of all geldings or all mares!

Just as a good horse is never a bad colour - a good horse is never the wrong gender. Although I would caution against a novice getting an intact stallion!

 

[Siennasong]

Thanks for replies, very interesting and yes I see your points about the intelligence thing! And what do you think about the ability to bond deeply? Why do you think it is quite common to hear people say the bond you get with a mare is far deeper than you could get with a gelding? (By the way I know I am generalising here, just summing up the general pattern of opinions I have noticed, especially looking through old horse and hound forum threads) ...

 

[Pedantic]

Hormonal wife and two hormonal daughters last thing I would want is a mare, my gelding is very intelligent, don't know how you would class "brave" with horses, ours are next to a railway track and on a farm, don't bat an eye at very noisy trains passing or large noisy tractor 3 feet away, but something new or different even if not really noisy can be a problem, so don't know if it's bravery thing or comes down to what an individual horse get desensitized to, as for bonding, he knows who loves him .

 

[SatansLittleHelper]

I prefer geldings to be honest. I enjoy having an affectionate and mostly predictable horse (in terms of hormones).
Personally I find geldings sweeter though perhaps not as brave as mares.
All that said, I have a lovely mare on loan with a view to buy at the moment and she has a lovely temperament and we gel pretty well. She is a little more standoff ish than the boys have been in terms of being cuddled etc lol but affectionate in her own way.
One thing I will say is that I feel I have more of a partnership with her where as I have always babied the boys

 

[windand rain]

I am the other way I would never willingly own a gelding again. I really dislike them they are usually pretty affable I will admit but they do not in my experience have the deep bond I have had with mares I have owned horses for about 50 years and have had all three. Colt/stallions think in their pants but get one on side and there is nothing quite like it. I now would only own mares they are wonderful free thinking and bright are easy to home as most livery yards wont entertain stallions. Geldings in my experience have always been slightly too easy to predict even if it is bad things which they certainly can learn very quickly. I do own a very naughty gelding so maybe he is jading my view of them. He is a dangerous, useless and awful pony but we love him, he has never had a bad day in his life so he is the way he is by nature not nurture but as long as I cater to his needs he is safe. My mares I adore they are deeply bonded with me and their riders they are quick to learn are kind and care for their riders far more than I have ever known a gelding do
I will add that I never know when the mares are in season unless a strange male turns up

 

[Archangel]

At one point I had a gelding, a stallion and 3 mares (dam and 2 daughters).
Gelding, top mare and mare 2 were a force to be reckoned with. Intelligent, loyal and brave. Gelding was in overall charge of everything.

Stallion was the most laid back and the most affectionate. Brave in certain circumstances but a bit precious.

Mare 3 almost an automaton - probably as a result of living with gelding and top mare all her life and not being allowed to think for herself.

I now just have mare 3 and a new gelding. The gelding is a pain the backside really, he breaks everything, biffs the mare, chews her tail and tears her rug. He is not intelligent as such but certainly has more about him than the mare.

 

[Hallo2012]

i dont think castration reduces intelligence or bravery but it certainly alters things(how can it not) and whether thats for better or worse really depends on the horse in question.

i had a lot of mares when younger but had 3 seriously tricky ones in a row and now will never have another, i just dont like dealing with the hormonal side of it and sometimes feel they are "spoiling for a fight" before even tacked up. I ride 3 for other people at the moment and find it easy to work with them (and am always very fair with any horse i ride) but i wouldnt want one for me.

since them ive mainly had geldings and have had all sorts, lions, mice, those that would walk over hot coals for you and those that will drop you at the first opportunity, those that would go all day and those with ZERO work ethic.

i now have a stallion, first one thats MINE (having worked with/ridden a few when younger) and although his balls obviously cause issues occasionally, in general he is a very happy go lucky easy going chap who really wants to do it right.

because he isnt ever aggressive, or overly dominant(he is cheeky and pushy but he's 4, and easily put back in his box!) he's easy to have around and easy to work with and i would be wary of gelding him as i wouldnt want to change a thing about him (and he's destined for a breeding career anyway).
he IS of course easily distracted and i feel that what would be a simple *head up oooh whats that* in a gelding is more often *head up leap in air squeal snort grunt WHAT IS THAT* from him. He is happiest and easiest to work when he can see the other horses in the fields and thus can keep half a beady eye on them..................but that said is easy enough to get back to planet earth and in to work mode.

i am really enjoying having him

 

[Hannahgb]

My horse of a life time was a gelding. We had an amazing bond, he wouldn't tolerate many people, did as asked for some but would always go above and beyond for me. I will never have the same bond as he did with him, he would try anything if I asked.

All my other geldings have been affectionate and easy to do, bold and brave and learnt things quickly.

My current mare will only accept attention on her terms. She will tolerate affection if she is in the right mood. She will do as I'm asked and try her heart out to please but god help you if she doesnt want to do it! I love her to bits but she certainly isnt as straight forward as the boys!

 

[Antw23uk]

I'm a guy, I own a gelding .. we are both brave and clever. Mares, like women are to be avoided because your all nuts!

 

[Templebar]

Im another who prefers mares, I wouldn't rule out a gelding but on the whole would choose a mare first. I suspect it is as I have mostly had mares until now, but of the geldings I have worked with I have found them to not be as sharp as a mare, however they were more trainable. The whole mare thing generally comes down to the horses self preservation, I find mares better at this than geldings and I think that it comes from the leading the herd thing. So when I am jumping I don't care what else they do for a quirk but I need to know that they are probably able to get us out of a sticky situation when needed especially across country.

To answer your original question though I do think breed and traits before gelding are likely to be there after and gelding does not affect this, as of the geldings I have worked with I by far prefer welshes I think its that sharpness in them that makes them that way and therefore gelding should not affect this.

Also as for bonding I think it can be just as good both ways and I would actually argue for a better bond with a gelding as they wont ever have other things on their mind.

 

[Kezzabell2]

My gelding is soo clever, its not always a good thing, because it might mean that he learns quick but also means that he learns naughty tricks quickly too!

I also have a mare, she hate people but loves me! I do have a great bond with her that no one else has ever been able to get! but I also feel that I have an amazing bond with my gelding, which came a lot quicker than it did with my mare!! in fact it probably took about 4/5 years before we truly trusted each other! even now, she's very independent and she's 31 and has been with me for 15 years!

 

[pennyturner]

I have 5 stallions and 6 geldings. No difference in behaviour or attitude whatever. The cheeky ones are both geldings, and I'm pretty certain their breeding and character has more to do with this than anything else (Shetland and Welsh respectively).

IME bravery has more to do with a confident handler/rider, and an unstressed environment than it has the sex of the animal.

 

[Cortez]

I've got one of each at the moment (mare, stallion, gelding) and have had all sorts over the years. I really think it is down to the individual horse's personality, gender doesn't make much difference.

 

[laura_nash]

My daughter's pony was gelded two years ago at the age of 12+, can't say I've noticed any dramatic change in his personality, intelligence or bravery. Well actually he has developed more of an outgoing and friendly personality and become braver, but I like to think that is my handling skills and him relaxing more than the loss of his bits. He lives with my gelding, who is much braver than him!

 

[TwyfordM]

I handle mares/geldings/stallions/colts and fillies daily.
One stallion you do have to be careful around and make sure he respects you and maintains that respect at all times, because the minute he even gets his head in front of you on the way to the field etc he starts the whole dominance routine that has to be quickly nipped in the bud or you are stuffed!
The other is just your average Joe unless there's a mare in front of his face. We have a gelding who has to have his routine kept perfectly or he throws his toys out the pram worse than the first stallion, the other geldings vary between that and dopes on ropes!
The mares on the whole do tend to be a little less predictable but again vary from naughty to perfect, but you do find that even the dope on rope mares tend to be a bit more switched on and still have the odd throw the toys out the pram moments.

We have two RDA ponies, one mare, one gelding. The mare is faultless with the disabled/nervous riders but will buck/bronc and be a total cowbag with advanced "normal" riders. The gelding on the other hand is the same regardless of who is riding him, dependable!

I wouldn't base anything on gender or entire, but take each horse as an individual!

 

[Bilbo_Baggins]

Thanks for replies, very interesting and yes I see your points about the intelligence thing! And what do you think about the ability to bond deeply? Why do you think it is quite common to hear people say the bond you get with a mare is far deeper than you could get with a gelding? (By the way I know I am generalising here, just summing up the general pattern of opinions I have noticed, especially looking through old horse and hound forum threads) ...

I had a mare that I rode for 5 years as a lead horse in a trekking centre. I would say we were a brilliant team. She was quick to learn and clever and she was good at her job! Of course we got to know each other pretty well and we learnt each other's signs and body language. She knew what I wanted and I knew what she wanted kind of thing. However, she wasn't that fussed about me in the field or whatever. Not that she was ever difficult to catch, but she wasn't really an affectionate horse and not into all that "lovey-dovey" stuff. She was brave out and about and she would always give things her best shot. I would say our bond was pretty deep and I haven't had anything like that with any other horse, mare, stallion or gelding.

My gelding I am still getting to know riding wise, but I have owned for over 4 years so we are pretty well acquainted on the ground . He certainly isn't stupid, but it can take a couple of attempts to get something to really stick. Once he's learnt it though he doesn't seem to forget (great for wanted behaviour, not so great for the unwanted stuff!) and a gentle reminder is all it takes to get what you want from him. He genuinely seems to want to please me and my early attempts at trick training were abandoned because he learnt it got rewards and every time I was working with him trying to teach him something new he would throw all the old tricks at me in an attempt to please. (He still does this when he is unsure what I am asking which I actually find quite useful as it lets me know he is not understanding and to re-evaluate what I want and how I am asking for it)

He has always been super affectionate. He loves attention and people and he is pretty attached to me. I love that he neighs when he hears me arriving at the yard and he is standing waiting for me in the field watching for me coming. I also like that when I cycle down to see him I can surprise him by calling him and he will gallop over to see me! I feel I have a great bond with him. Although he isn't as brave as the mare I rode, he certainly tries and I feel he trusts me enough not to get too upset in an uncomfortable situation. He looks to me for security when he is worried and upset and that's find with me. Let's me know when there could be a potential problem and react accordingly.

I agree with the sentiment "ask a gelding, discuss it with a mare" and it really depends what qualities you want in your horse. I haven't worked with any particularly affectionate mares, but plenty of affectionate geldings! I have ridden spooky mares and bombproof geldings. I have bonded with a mare, and the trust was amazing, but the bond with my gelding although different is just as wonderful (and involves more affection)

 

[Nudibranch]

I've owned two pretty dim mares, one of whom was a complete tart, and two very smart ones. I have two geldings at the moment and one is a complete bimbo. The other is very smart and very brave if he trusts you. They're all different.

 

[JennBags]

I'm a guy, I own a gelding .. we are both brave and clever. Mares, like women are to be avoided because your all nuts!

"you're" all nuts.

Who's clever?

 

[soulfull]

I find no difference in bravery that's down to individual horses.

Gelding are usually more affectionate, although I did have one extremely affectionate TB mare.

Also gelding much more predictable, which as I'm getting older I now prefer

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

From my experience, all horses are different - mares, geldings and colts. Bravery and 'intelligence' don't always go together - in fact from a horses point of view - the more intelligent horses would re-think what us humans are trying to train them to do! I have known geldings as brave as lions, mares who are standoffish and stallions who are gentle and friendly. Horses bond with people who care for them and spend most time with them - not just rocking up for an hour a day....or a few times a week for a ride. I would advise you to get the individual horse that you like and you feel is right for you. Gelding an animal shouldn't reduce his "intelligence", just narrow his interests in other things!

I recall one gelding, Barker, who we had in training as a pointer, he was a schoolmaster, ie been there, done that, got the T-shirt.
He had the best stable, in that he could check out what was happening in the yard, if he was dozing and you woke him up, he made it clear that he was none too happy.
He suffered quietly when his owner came to ride out, when racing he decided how long he would carry his owner, usually two laps, when he would lose patience and quietly drop owner off at the stands. Then he would trot up to to the gate where he could go back to the stables.
I came in one morning and he was lying down, unusual, I had a look at him, he had a look at me and I knew it was time to call the vet. Vet's secy went thru all the symptoms............... sweating? no, rolling? ,, kicking belly? no etc, hhhmmm "how do you know he has colic?"....me, "cos he 's rolling his eyes and wants me to call you!!!!!!"

 

[rowan666]

I think in general mares are much more intelligent, all but a handful of geldings I know/have known are thick as pig muck although I hate to agree with my mother that do find geldings to be more loving and loyal (I still prefer mares). I would say our sec A is oddly less brave since gelding and really doesn't cope with stress/change well atall, the slightest thing upsets him and he's stressed about it for weeks on end before finally returning to his usual dopey self, whereas before gelding (he was gelded at 4) he would throw a dickie fit when stressed/upset then just get over it!? Couldn't begin to explain it, he is abit special lol

 

[pennandh]

Given the choice, I'd always have a mare over a gelding - they need more of a softly softly approach, but I prefer to ride that way anyhow, and I generally get along better with them. That said, some people dislike mares for exactly the reasons I adore them, and I will agree that geldings are probably easier for novices.

The later a gelding was cut, the better, in my book - they're a lot more stallion-like in their thought patterns, and generally a lot more vibrant (Mr H was gelded as a seven-year-old, and he's fab). Again, late-cut geldings aren't to everyone's taste, as they tend to be a bit...opinionated, but they will do more for the right person than something that was gelded as a yearling.

The belief regarding mares/stallions being braver or more intelligent is probably mainly couched in the fact that they're usually more dominant personalities than geldings - think officer material instead of rank-and-file. This makes them more of a challenge to lead, but also much more willing to take up the role of XO to your position of Captain when you get it right. Getting it right and building that Captain/XO type of relationship is where the bond comes from. You can do it with geldings too, but they often need a lot more encouragement to step up to the plate and show a bit of initiative.

 

[emmad96]

I don't know whether it is because I grew up riding at gelding-only riding schools or what, but I have to say, I love my mare. Might be because I have the only non chestnut/non little tiny pony mare where I graze, but she is the most laid back, easy to deal with horse I currently have to interact with. All of the geldings I know are a pain in the butt, constantly wanting to rub, nibble, lick and are just plain dicks. I like that she likes her own space, she's not an overly cuddly horse, don't get me wrong, when will fall asleep with her head on my knee if we are hanging out in her paddock, but she has a good knowledge of personal space. She gets herself, which means me as well, out of situations that I wouldn't trust a gelding to get me out of, and she is the most wiling, giving and smart horse i've ever ridden. Maybe its the clydie in her, maybe its because she's my one in a million, but I don't think I could go back to having a gelding again.

 

[oldie48]

TBH I think it's all down to the individual horse but although I've had a couple of lovely mares in the past who were not the slightest bit hormonal, I would always prefer a gelding, mainly because they are likely to be more consistent. I'd avoid a stallion because I don't feel I have the experience to deal with them and would have no intention of breeding from them. With regard to bravery, intelligence etc I don't think there's any difference at all.

 

[soapy]

I'm a guy, I own a gelding .. we are both brave and clever. Mares, like women are to be avoided because your all nuts!

Just here to offer solidarity to my gelding owning brother from another mother. Especially after PAddyMonty's shocking comment:

It is a well known fact that males (all species) keep at least half their brains in their nether regions. Nuff said.

My gelding is clever, handsome and brave and often leads the mares out on hacks. They're often so skitty they get the jitters before they've even left the yard.