genuine question re barefoot

Changes said:
A handful of evangelists believing they know more than the entire equine sporting industry, equine dieticians, well trained farriers - and you think I'm mad?

:rolleyes:
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We're being given examples of people in the equine sporting industry that don't shoe their horses, so its not the entire industry that shoe.

Surely equine dieticians would advocate feeding as natural diet as possible to the horse - unless they have an agenda to sell a particular product?

I believe that a well trained farrier should be happy to advise on whether a particular horse can cope unshod or not, I'd be unhappy with a farrier that felt that every horse had to be shod, just because.

My horse is shod in front by the way, but I enjoy reading the posts from people that have barefoot horses, ( aka handful of evangelists ;) )
I still take a lot away about diet and have learnt a lot about how a healthy ( shod or unshod ) foot should look.
Kx
 
whisp&willow said:
changes: why do you hate the photo?

i dont have a problem with barefoot... but im by no means a convert either... just like an interesting discussion. ;)
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I think it's a great photo, but it's extremely tedious when it's trotted out at any given opportunity to promote barefoot........ I know horses that have hunted perfectly well UNSHOD ..........
 
Oberon said:
I think you come on posts, call people names and declare anyone with a certificate must be right because 'they're the expert'. And I meant mad as in angry because you often become aggressive on posts.
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Nothing like putting words in my mouth, Oberon. :rolleyes:

I'm not aggressive, simply sick to the back teeth of the nonsense.

Most of the riders at top level don't have certificates, but have got there through hard graft, experience, an innate understanding of the horse and how he functions and being open to new ideas, with the ability to dismiss those ideas that don't work in practice.
I'm sure loads of them would love to not have the expense of shoeing horses, but at a reasonable level of competition, and I'm not talking grass roots eventing here, or under 1.10m SJ, shoes are necessary.

Have any of you ever read the farriers magazine? The amount of information on the foot is way more than the American originated 'barefoot' guru sites. There is continual reassessment of of new ideas, and methods to help the horse.

Dieticians train for years, yet you guys are experts on feeding after googling and reading the labels?

I find it frankly disturbing that less experienced people on a forum are prepared to listen to the drumbeating evangelism of a few people and choose to ignore the advice of their vets and farriers on the basis of it.

@ Circe - you've been given a single figure number of people who are barefoot. And none of them are 'top level' as such.

Go to a 3* or 4* - look at the horses feet, watch them go SJ on grass or XC - and see how that would work without shoes and studs ..........
 
Changes said:
@ Circe - you've been given a single figure number of people who are barefoot. And none of them are 'top level' as such.

Go to a 3* or 4* - look at the horses feet, watch them go SJ on grass or XC - and see how that would work without shoes and studs ..........
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But surely that's just it? At top level showjumping or eventing the turns needed are so tight and at such high speed that studs are necessary. Surely that's the only reason to shoe a top level competition horse? So why shoe all the others?
 
Changes said:
Nothing like putting words in my mouth, Oberon. :rolleyes:

I'm not aggressive, simply sick to the back teeth of the nonsense.

Most of the riders at top level don't have certificates, but have got there through hard graft, experience, an innate understanding of the horse and how he functions and being open to new ideas, with the ability to dismiss those ideas that don't work in practice.
I'm sure loads of them would love to not have the expense of shoeing horses, but at a reasonable level of competition, and I'm not talking grass roots eventing here, or under 1.10m SJ, shoes are necessary.

Have any of you ever read the farriers magazine? The amount of information on the foot is way more than the American originated 'barefoot' guru sites. There is continual reassessment of of new ideas, and methods to help the horse.

Dieticians train for years, yet you guys are experts on feeding after googling and reading the labels?

I find it frankly disturbing that less experienced people on a forum are prepared to listen to the drumbeating evangelism of a few people and choose to ignore the advice of their vets and farriers on the basis of it.

@ Circe - you've been given a single figure number of people who are barefoot. And none of them are 'top level' as such.

Go to a 3* or 4* - look at the horses feet, watch them go SJ on grass or XC - and see how that would work without shoes and studs ..........
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We need a LIKE button.

Most people on here don't respond to these threads. It's only the same old holier than thou evangelical few; that see themselves as the leading authorities. Without taking the 4yr farrier apprenticeship or the 4/5yr veterinary training.

Let me see do I listen to my 20yr experience farrier or my(and thousands of others) equine specialist Vets or a few posters on an open forum with thousands of members...............................errrrrr let me see.


This is from someone with a horse that's been without shoes from birth. Only one of them though.
 
lazybee said:
We need a LIKE button.

Most people on here don't respond to these threads. It's only the same old holier than thou evangelical few; that see themselves as the leading authorities. Without taking the 4yr farrier apprenticeship or the 4/5yr veterinary training.

Let me see do I listen to my 20yr experience farrier or my(and thousands of others) equine specialist Vets or a few posters on an open forum with thousands of members...............................errrrrr let me see.


This is from someone with a horse that's been without shoes from birth. Only one of them though.
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Yikes, clearly I've strayed into a warzone!
bolt.gif


I just replied as someone who's had a horse's feet ruined by a farrier with the 4yr apprenticeship and a good 20 years experience to boot. The worry it caused, the pain to the horse, and the money it cost to put right... all for a set of shoes that my horse didn't really even need. I'll never shoe another horse again after that, it's just not worth it.
 
well there are good and bad in every profession... im sure there are not so useful barefoot trimmers out there somewhere too, or at least one person in the world who will say "a barefoot trimmer ruined my horses feet"

i know many of you compete at various levels with your horses barefoot- but my real query was if any of the top level do? and i suspected not, for the reasons that changes has mentioned. Personaly (and i may be wrong, i may be brainwashed by years of good farriery service, but id want a set of shoes and studs under me if i were going round badminton...!) i also wondered that if barefoot realy is so amazing then why are the top professionals not embracing it? if it means improved health and performance of the horse? would it be that it is just not practical for those at top level eventing/sj?

although this being said i would have found it interesting if there were even one competing at top level, who would challenge my beliefs.

also: do you see a difference between an unshod horse and one who is "barefoot"?
 
I trust my farrier 100% and he is all for horses being unshod if they can cope with it.. I love my horses being unshod (so much cheaper) but if they need shoes they shall have them...

Please don't tar all unshod horse (owners) with the same brush, I do hate to hear the it must be barefoot even if it's crippled foolishness
 
Changes said:
Go to a 3* or 4* - look at the horses feet, watch them go SJ on grass or XC - and see how that would work without shoes and studs ..........
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I think you need to have a read of The Lame Horse by James Rooney. A vet with decades of experience in the clinic and in research. There's a lovely summation of how the hoof works when contacting the ground, the front end slicing into the ground and sliding before gaining traction. I forget the exact wording, but this is how hooves are designed to work. Immediate traction puts excess stress on the joints and muscles, making injury more likely. A blunt shoe extends the time taken for the hoof to gain traction, which is overcome by placing studs into the shoe. I remember discussing this with a farrier, who said that it's better for shoes to slide a fraction for the same reason.

BTW, Dr Rooney is not a barefoot evangelist as you call them. However you'd be hard pressed to find a vet or farrier who could truthfully argue it's better to nail shoes onto a horse's feet and then deal with the consequences when they arise.

..and if you're wondering about me, my farrier and I both trim my ponies and he shoes Henry when I haven't got on top of his insulin resistance and he is footsore on stoney ground. Happily this year that wasn't the case, due to the dry spring! Saying that, I like the sound a 'Barefoot Taliban', lol!
 
this wasnt a thread to see who is barefoot and who is shod. it was more that i wondered that if barefoot realy is as good as we are lead to believe then why are top competition horses not barefoot? they get the best in veterinary, physio, saddlery etc, so why would they be getting sub standarg foot care? no foot no horse and all that jazz?

it just popped into my head and thought it would be an interesting topic for discussion, and that it would be interesting to find out if there are any top level competition horses going without shoes and bucking the trend? (as i had never noticed one before.)

but FYI i am in the same boat as you mary! my mare had her shoes off for two years- while in foal and playing mummy. i brought her back into work, and kept her without shoes for a while, but she is now shod, and goes better for it. horses for courses and all that!

(someone better get the cliche police... ive used too many in this post! :p)
 
Changes said:
I'm not aggressive, simply sick to the back teeth of the nonsense.
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You do seem drawn to reading and posting on the threads though. I had a phase like this about another subject but I've grown out of it.

Top professionals seem to me to be a breed of their own and for some winning becomes their main drive and focus. They are also in somewhat closed worlds along with like minded people so only have similar to compare with.

Some top professionals use rollkur so I'm afraid even though I'm no equine expert I know what I believe is more in tune with horses and that doesn't include stuff like rollkur, fancy shoes to make sure the horse isn't lame and can perform, stacking, soreing, putting prickly stuff on jumps to make horses pick their feet up, locking horses in dark stables, rugged up to the eye balls and fed all manner of fancy stuff to put 'condition' on. The list of stuff some top professionals do is very long and horrid. If anyone thinks I'm going to or should take their example blindly because they are 'top' then you are very mistaken. :

That's my cage well and truly rattled.
 
Are you old enough to remember an advert for cigarettes? It said "Your DOCTOR recommends Capstan full strength"

It was from the days when received wisdom was that smoking tobacco was good for you.

It was true of ulcers as well. No one believed the doctor who first discovered that ulcers in humans are caused by a bacteria and not by stress and diet alone which was the received wisdom of the time.. He had to give himself a helicobacter pylorum infection to prove it!

Shoeing is also received wisdom. It was necessary when horses were kept without enough movement, on high grain diets and stood in ammonia in stalls or stables all day before they were put to pull a carriage or cart. It is no longer necessary. Most of the top people who don't need studs simply haven't caught up yet.
 
amandap- again i think you have misunderstood my question.

im not saying the top riders shoe- therefor they are right and all horses should be shod. i am aware of some of the "techniques" used by professional riders, and disagree with many of them.

i was only wondering if anyone knew of any unshod/barefoot competitors at a high level, and if not then why.

i dont believe that shoeing of competition horses is purely down to the need or greed to win... and if it is then does that show that performance is enhanced by having the horses shod?

this was not a thread to cause conflict between "two camps" more out of interest to see if the professionals are changing their beliefs or coming round to this "new" way of thinking? or if people think it will ever happen?
 
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whisp&willow said:
again i think you have misunderstood my question.

im not saying the top riders shoe- therefor they are right and all horses should be shod. i am aware of some of the "techniques" used my professional riders, and disagree with many of them.

i was only wondering if anyone knew of any unshod/barefoot competitors at a high level, and if not then why.

i dont believe that shoeing of competition horses is purely down to the need or greed to win... and if it is then does that show that performance is enhanced by having the horses shod?

this was not a thread to cause conflict between "two camps" more out of interest to see if the professionals are changing their beliefs or coming round to this "new" way of thinking? or if people think it will ever happen?
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I would imagine it is primarily because of the particular care and attention that needs to be paid to diet, excercise and environment to sucessfully keep a barefoot horse. Top competition horses are generally a) not owned by the riders, so riders don't make these decisions. b) kept on full livery where barefoot facilities are not readily available.

Bottom line - keeping a barefoot horse is not a walk in the park, it needs time and dedication. In top competition horses this is not forthcoming for something which is not directly related to competing.

Plus, as I said before, studs are needed for grip at the very highest levels of jumping competition.
 
and surely it cant just be down to ignorance santapaws? i get your point- people used to believe a lot of thing we now know to be wrong/misinformed.

but surely with all of the science and information we have now, and all the effort and specialists involved with these top horses, surely they have at least heard of barefoot... and its advantages or disadvantages? they surely dont just shoe competition horses because its always been done- like they probably dont just thatch them when they come back in after a round... not saying its any more or less effective- just thinking out loud!
 
Simon Earle, used to train barefoot racehorses (don't know whether he is still in the game though)

I may be wrong on this but didn't Emma Hindle compete a couple of her top horses barefoot for a season or two?

Free'n'easy saddle's founder and endurance rider Les Spark competes barefoot. So does Darolyn Butler.

And I can't remember their name but I am certain there was an advanced eventer who competed barefoot.
Another eventer was Millenium Master, he competed up to advanced barefoot as he couldn't stay sound when shod.

I also believe there is a mounted police force in America that is barefoot too.
 
Santa Paws said:
Are you old enough to remember an advert for cigarettes? It said "Your DOCTOR recommends Capstan full strength"

It was from the days when received wisdom was that smoking tobacco was good for you.

It was true of ulcers as well. No one believed the doctor who first discovered that ulcers in humans are caused by a bacteria and not by stress and diet alone which was the received wisdom of the time.. He had to give himself a helicobacter pylorum infection to prove it!

Shoeing is also received wisdom. It was necessary when horses were kept without enough movement, on high grain diets and stood in ammonia in stalls or stables all day before they were put to pull a carriage or cart. It is no longer necessary. Most of the top people who don't need studs simply haven't caught up yet.
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Comparing ulcers and smoking to shoeing is a bit desperate.

As for -

Most of the top people who don't need studs simply haven't caught up yet
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Yeh, of course you know more than them. It would be funny if it wasn't so delusional and self serving at the expense of the horses. :rolleyes:

@ amandap - I respond to these threads so that the less experienced people get a different viewpoint. Most (sensible experienced) people are heartily sick of the evangelistic claptrap spouted, so don't bother. I worry that horses are going to suffer because their owners have listened to the likes of these egotists pushing barefoot.

I've had to rehab a horse that was barefoot and about to be put down because the owner couldn't keep him sound with cracked heels, abscesses, filled legs, you name it. Shoes on and he's never had a wrong step since (three years).

It's the Emperor's New Clothes .............
 
amandap said:
You do seem drawn to reading and posting on the threads though. I had a phase like this about another subject but I've grown out of it.

Top professionals seem to me to be a breed of their own and for some winning becomes their main drive and focus. They are also in somewhat closed worlds along with like minded people so only have similar to compare with.

Some top professionals use rollkur so I'm afraid even though I'm no equine expert I know what I believe is more in tune with horses and that doesn't include stuff like rollkur, fancy shoes to make sure the horse isn't lame and can perform, stacking, soreing, putting prickly stuff on jumps to make horses pick their feet up, locking horses in dark stables, rugged up to the eye balls and fed all manner of fancy stuff to put 'condition' on. The list of stuff some top professionals do is very long and horrid. If anyone thinks I'm going to or should take their example blindly because they are 'top' then you are very mistaken. :

That's my cage well and truly rattled.
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I am with you 100%.
My farrier (DipWCF) with some 20+ years experience specializes in barefoot horses.He does dressage,race and endurance horses. He has passed most of his shoeing onto others because there is such a huge demand for his expertise.
He often works with vets. Some are very clued up about barefoot. Others are not.( would quote Santa paws here if I knew how)
I think,given time, top eventers and Sjs will start working barefoot. They may find it works in competition,they may find it doesn't,but as more professionals discover the advantages,the more the industry will be forced to look into this issue.
Off to iron my hijab:D
 
whisp&willow said:
changes: why do you hate the photo?

i dont have a problem with barefoot... but im by no means a convert either... just like an interesting discussion. ;)
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I'm going to just ignore the same old posters who come on barefoot posts and become rude ;)

When you say you are not converted (clearly I'm not trying hard enough
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)
that's fine. You and your horses are happy in shoes.

But let's speak hypothetically....
If (God forbid) your horse is diagnosed with navicular/ligament/tendon damage and your vet prescribes heart bar shoes (the magic cure
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) and Tildren etc.

18 months rock by and the horse is still lame - you may or may not have added wedges to the shoeing. You've reached the end of your insurance and the farrier and vet are both shaking their heads and suggesting PTS.

Are you going to PTS?

Or will you remember that there's a bunch of barefoot nutters on HHO who swear the horse can be saved....and go back into FULL WORK?

There's a handful of HHO posters who have been in this situation, they've ignored the farrier and the vet and given their horse's one last chance. And it's worked.

So - even though I am not a farrier, a vet, a nutritionist, a top level competitor or anyone important, I will keep posting.
tongue.gif
 
whisp&willow said:
:p no worries! i took it the wrong way! :cool:
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No worries here either. I should have made it clear.

As I can't answer your question myself I've been off looking and here is a blog post with some bare footers working hard professionally. Some already mentioned. http://barefoothorseblog.blogspot.com/p/hardworking-barefooters.html

I do believe dressage will become a big barefoot discipline. I've read so many posts and articles about the improvement in horses' paces, way of going generally and increase in stamina when happily barefoot. By happily barefoot I mean fully transitioned with hooves healthy and well developed for the work they are doing.
 
amandap said:
Top professionals seem to me to be a breed of their own and for some winning becomes their main drive and focus. They are also in somewhat closed worlds along with like minded people so only have similar to compare with.

Some top professionals use rollkur so I'm afraid even though I'm no equine expert I know what I believe is more in tune with horses and that doesn't include stuff like rollkur, fancy shoes to make sure the horse isn't lame and can perform, stacking, soreing, putting prickly stuff on jumps to make horses pick their feet up, locking horses in dark stables, rugged up to the eye balls and fed all manner of fancy stuff to put 'condition' on. The list of stuff some top professionals do is very long and horrid. If anyone thinks I'm going to or should take their example blindly because they are 'top' then you are very mistaken. :
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And how many top yards have you been in? How many professionals have you watched work and educate their horses?

I can tell you I've been in a fair few and never seen anything like you describe. What are you basing your information on?
 
Changes said:
@ amandap - I respond to these threads so that the less experienced people get a different viewpoint. Most (sensible experienced) people are heartily sick of the evangelistic claptrap spouted, so don't bother. I worry that horses are going to suffer because their owners have listened to the likes of these egotists pushing barefoot.
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Claptrap?? So... what? Is it all a conspiracy? did we actually have our 'lame in shoes' horses PTS and bought identical sound ones? Is it all a big cover up to convince you that you can take your horses shoes off in an effort to trick you? Why on earth would we go to all the effort! We're too busy exercising our horses to keep their feet looking great!

In actual fact lots of the barefoot taliban consists of people who've tried conventional treatment on their lame horses and it didn't work, tried drugs, tried remedial shoes, got frustrated so tried something a bit different - and it worked!

Once upon a time we believed the earth was flat - that the white man was superior - that we couldn't fly across the ocean - that all cancer was untreatable.... The list goes on and on... times change, science changes, the world changes... and those that don't like change are going to find themselves in a very unhappy place!


Changes said:
It's the Emperor's New Clothes .............
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Yeah wasn't that the story of the king that paid a fortune for something to wear that turned out to be not all it was cracked up to be.... like horseshoes maybe?


OP - you ask a good question, I think the reason we don't see more barefoot top level competition horses is probably down to the environment they're kept in with an element of 'but thats the way we've always done it'. Long times stood in stables and lots of cereals don't go hand in hand with barefoot horses, and I imagine for the competitors if its not broke they won't try and fix it - if it does break it'll be replaced with another. Whereas non-competitors may only have 1 horse so will look for alternative ways to get it/keep it sound.
Emma Hindle does compete barefoot by the way
http://www.hoofcareunltd.com/Emma Hindle.htm
 
Changes said:
And how many top yards have you been in? How many professionals have you watched work and educate their horses?

I can tell you I've been in a fair few and never seen anything like you describe. What are you basing your information on?
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So if you haven't seen it, it doesn't go on? Well we can all bury our heads and argue that one.

I've never been in Anky's yard, for example but I do have a good idea of how she trains her horses. :eek: I'm sure she has many 'followers' who have never been in her yard either and do what she does because she is 'top' in her discipline. Are you saying that because she is 'top' she MUST be right?

The world is changing fast thanks mainly to the internet and people are able to question along with others who see things in a similar fashion. Others are able to have stuff they never questioned suddenly have a new light shed on it and begin to ask questions themselves. Questioning professionals is no longer no no and I'm praying this leads to them having to question themselves and learn more about horses as opposed to a human model of horses and "received wisdom".
 
amandap said:
So if you haven't seen it, it doesn't go on? Well we can all bury our heads and argue that one.

I've never been in Anky's yard, for example but I do have a good idea of how she trains her horses. :eek: I'm sure she has many 'followers' who have never been in her yard either and do what she does because she is 'top' in her discipline. Are you saying that because she is 'top' she MUST be right?

The world is changing fast thanks mainly to the internet and people are able to question along with others who see things in a similar fashion. Others are able to have stuff they never questioned suddenly have a new light shed on it and begin to ask questions themselves. Questioning professionals is no longer no no and I'm praying this leads to them having to question themselves and learn more about horses as opposed to a human model of horses and "received wisdom".
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I have been in a lot of top eventing yards. Not one of them is as you say - where did you get your information from? or did you just make it up?

Nobody questions themselves more than the pros - they are continually striving to keep their horses happier and healthier. But then if you have never been in contact with one, you wouldn't know that.

Here's an example - I could say about you that your barefoot horses are always lame. If I said it often enough people would believe me. That's exactly what you are doing to pro riders. If you have never been in their yards, or seen them work, you do NOT know.

I'm appalled.
 
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