genuine question re barefoot

Changes said:
So how many horses have you got in full competition work that are barefoot, maggiesmum?
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I never claimed to be a competition rider - does that mean i'm not allowed to express on opinion? I didn't realise this was a thread for 'top competitors' only!

I disagreed with you saying that all this 'barefoot nonsense' is 'claptrap' and gave MY opinion to the OP on why I think the majority of competition horses are shod and you come back with that??? Speaks volumes! ;)
 
maggiesmum said:
I never claimed to be a competition rider - does that mean i'm not allowed to express on opinion? I didn't realise this was a thread for 'top competitors' only!

I disagreed with you saying that all this 'barefoot nonsense' is 'claptrap' and gave MY opinion to the OP on why I think the majority of competition horses are shod and you come back with that??? Speaks volumes! ;)
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The thread is about whether or not any top competition horses are barefoot. Hence my question when you used your horse as an example.

However, I don't think I accused you of talking claptrap? Unless of course you consider yourself a barefoot evangelist?

And please, if you want to quote me do so in context - I actually said -

*Most (sensible experienced) people are heartily sick of the evangelistic claptrap spouted*
 
Op. A few links from a search on barefoot competition horses, tons of pages if you feel like a read for evidence. May not all be 'top' names though.

http://www.all-natural-horse-care.com/bare-foot-horse.html
http://www.espiritu-del-viento.com/going-barefoot.html
http://www.aebm.org.au/documents/australia_legalise_barefoot_endurance.pdf
http://www.bitlessequitation.co.uk/bitless-equitation-barefoot-copper.htm
http://barehooves.webs.com/barefootperformance.htm

Of course I haven't actually seen any of these horses with my own eyes.
 
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Oberon said:
I'm going to just ignore the same old posters who come on barefoot posts and become rude ;)

When you say you are not converted (clearly I'm not trying hard enough
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)
that's fine. You and your horses are happy in shoes.

But let's speak hypothetically....
If (God forbid) your horse is diagnosed with navicular/ligament/tendon damage and your vet prescribes heart bar shoes (the magic cure
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) and Tildren etc.

18 months rock by and the horse is still lame - you may or may not have added wedges to the shoeing. You've reached the end of your insurance and the farrier and vet are both shaking their heads and suggesting PTS.

Are you going to PTS?

Or will you remember that there's a bunch of barefoot nutters on HHO who swear the horse can be saved....and go back into FULL WORK?

There's a handful of HHO posters who have been in this situation, they've ignored the farrier and the vet and given their horse's one last chance. And it's worked.

So - even though I am not a farrier, a vet, a nutritionist, a top level competitor or anyone important, I will keep posting.
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well i wont knock anything until ive tried it... ive never said i think barefoot is rubbish or anything like that- just that when in work my horses are shod.

my mare was in fact mis-diagnosed as having navicular a long time ago now... i spoke about it on christmasy clover's threads regarding the problems she's having at the moment. long story short, it turned out to be a very crafty deeply hidden abscess and it popped and she's been sound as a pound ever since (in nb shoes when in work, and unshod when not)

if it came to it again with her or any of my other horses and i had exhausted all routes suggested to me by my very very trusted farrier, and the equine vets, then of course i would try barefoot before pts. i dont practice barefoot- but i am no means an arse about it or those who practice it! ;):p

neither is my farrier btw. ;)
 
amandap said:
Op. A few links from a search on barefoot competition horses, tons of pages if you feel like a read for evidence. May not all be 'top' names though.

http://www.all-natural-horse-care.com/bare-foot-horse.html
http://www.espiritu-del-viento.com/going-barefoot.html
http://www.aebm.org.au/documents/australia_legalise_barefoot_endurance.pdf
http://www.bitlessequitation.co.uk/bitless-equitation-barefoot-copper.htm
http://barehooves.webs.com/barefootperformance.htm

Of course I haven't actually seen any of these horses with my own eyes.
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There's only one top rider in there, Emma Hindle, and she shoes her current top horse Lancet. Maybe she's changed her mind?

There is a link in there extolling the virtues of Dr Strasser, who was convicted for butchering the feet of a pony in the pursuit of her ideals of barefoot. The pony had to be euthanased.
 
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I've asked TFC to remove the Strasser advocate link. I don't wish the uninitiated to read it from one link I put up. They are just the first ones that came up on a search. Time and listening to horses will answer this question about barefoot. :)
Sometimes keeping a horse barefoot isn't compatible with a traditional management and feeding regime. Many ordinary folk struggle on some yards due to restrictions.
 
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Whew! And all this from a simple question!?!
When one's livelihood depends on winning I think many of us would be reluctant to change from the traditional viewpoint of 'being shod is best for the horse'. If you're winning then change is pretty risky. I'm afraid money talks just as loud in the horse world as in any other.
Horses suffer in the name of competition and will continue to do so, barefoot or not, I'm afraid.
 
amandap said:
I've asked TFC to remove the Strasser advocate link. I don't wish the uninitiated to read it from one link I put up. They are just the first ones that came up on a search. Time and listening to horses will answer this question about barefoot. :)
Sometimes keeping a horse barefoot isn't compatible with a traditional management and feeding regime. Many ordinary folk struggle on some yards due to restrictions.
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So you use random internet links to try and justify your case without having any first hand knowledge of what they are advocating?

Well thought out reasoning and argument indeed. :rolleyes:

For anyone not already bored to death by all this, the link that amandap wishes to hide is this one.

http://www.aebm.org.au/documents/australia_legalise_barefoot_endurance.pdf
 
Changes said:
I respond to these threads so that the less experienced people get a different viewpoint. Most (sensible experienced) people are heartily sick of the evangelistic claptrap spouted, so don't bother. I worry that horses are going to suffer because their owners have listened to the likes of these egotists pushing barefoot.

I've had to rehab a horse that was barefoot and about to be put down because the owner couldn't keep him sound with cracked heels, abscesses, filled legs, you name it. Shoes on and he's never had a wrong step since (three years).

It's the Emperor's New Clothes .............
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I can see both sides of the arguement here. My old TB NEVER could go without shoes, however much we tried barefoot - he just couldn't stand to be without shoes.
However due to navicular in my TB mare, I am trying her barefoot. At the moment she is comfortable and happy.
As for vets - my current vet who is well respected and the only vet I actually trust was telling me of a horse which was crippled with navicular and there was nothing else the vet or farrier could do, and she was going to PTS the horse. However the owner gave it another chance and sent it to Rockley Farm. The horse is now sound and hacking out again. The vet admitted begin sceptical when the owner told her about it, but said that she can't believe the results.
My horse was also perfectly happy and 100% sound until a hospital vet (horse at hospital for a reason not lameness related) who is well renowned told me that as she is a TB she must have shoes fitted. I did as he said and the horse slowly went downhill, hence my own decision to take her shoes off again now that she has been diagnosed with navicular.
HOWEVER!!! Had my horse NOT been diagnosed with navicular, and other lameness problems, I have to admit that I would probably have just kept her shod - because if it's not broken with shoes, then there is nothing to actually fix, so I would have carried on as normal.
It's not something that demands an arguement - there are educated views on both sides and if a certain something works for your horse, then go along with it - if not, then change it!
 
Changes said:
So you use random internet links to try and justify your case without having any first hand knowledge of what they are advocating?

Well thought out reasoning and argument indeed. :rolleyes:

For anyone not already bored to death by all this, the link that amandap wishes to hide is this one.

http://www.aebm.org.au/documents/australia_legalise_barefoot_endurance.pdf
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:rolleyes: :eek: I am prepared to see the negative side of some barefoot trimming and show some slight responsibility even if late in acting. You still haven't managed to shame, embarrass or convince me that you know best. I'm not even going to bother responding in the personal manner that you seem to wish to embroil me in. :rolleyes:

Btw. that isn't the link I was referring to. lol There are some good less invasive Strasser trimmers just like there are good farriers.
 
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Changes said:
The thread is about whether or not any top competition horses are barefoot. Hence my question when you used your horse as an example.

However, I don't think I accused you of talking claptrap? Unless of course you consider yourself a barefoot evangelist?

And please, if you want to quote me do so in context - I actually said -

*Most (sensible experienced) people are heartily sick of the evangelistic claptrap spouted*
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Firstly I didn't use MY horse as an example! I referred to successfully rehabilitated barefoot horses in general. - So please, if you want to quote me do so in context!


I encourage and advocate barefoot, if that makes me a member of the 'barefoot taliban' then doesn't that automatically - according to your criteria - make me an egotistical, claptrap spouting evangelist??

On the other hand i'm experienced and pretty sensible so I must be (assuming I fall into the 'most' category that you're the self-elected spokesperson for) heartily sick of my own evangelistic claptrap?!?! :D
 
whisp&willow said:
and surely it cant just be down to ignorance santapaws? i get your point- people used to believe a lot of thing we now know to be wrong/misinformed.

but surely with all of the science and information we have now, and all the effort and specialists involved with these top horses, surely they have at least heard of barefoot... and its advantages or disadvantages? they surely dont just shoe competition horses because its always been done- like they probably dont just thatch them when they come back in after a round... not saying its any more or less effective- just thinking out loud!
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There is no research whatsoever which supports the use of shoes under any circumstances that is scientifically valid.

What studies there are have been done on tiny numbers without control groups.

Why would someone at the top of their game be mad enough to take the shoes off sound and winning horses? Who would take that risk when they are already winning? Who would give their horses a period of transition when they may not be able to compete at all? I certainly wouldn't.

We can show you world class endurance horses
We can show you world class hunters (mine for one and that's why I print that pic every time - to show people that I am not talking about a hunter who pops hunt timber of 3ft and less and to make it clear just how much work a barefoot horse can do to be as fit as a horse needs to be to do what he is doing. Plus he is GREAT horse and I love the pic :) )
We can show you world class dressage.

No world class eventers or showjumpers would give up the ability to use a shoe to put more stress on the horses joints than the feet are designed to hold, because they will no longer win in timed cross country or jump-offs.

What possible relevance has the fact that top riders still shoe their horses to the huge, huge HUGE number of ponies, cobs and ordinary riding horses who are unnecessarily having steel nailed to their feet?
 
amandap said:
:rolleyes: :eek: I am prepared to see the negative side of some barefoot trimming and show some slight responsibility even if late in acting. You still haven't managed to shame, embarrass or convince me that you know best. I'm not even going to bother responding in the personal manner that you seem to wish to embroil me in. :rolleyes:

Btw. that isn't the thread I was referring to. lol There are some good less invasive Strasser trimmers just like there are good farriers.
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You miss the point - I'm not saying I know best. That's what some others on here do. What I am trying to do is have you prove your claims, and you haven't.
 
Changes said:
There is a link in there extolling the virtues of Dr Strasser, who was convicted for butchering the feet of a pony in the pursuit of her ideals of barefoot. The pony had to be euthanased.
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For everyone's information Strasser trimming is illegal in this country and no trimming organisation supports the drawing of blood in trimming a horse.
 
maggiesmum said:
Firstly I didn't use MY horse as an example! I referred to successfully rehabilitated barefoot horses in general. - So please, if you want to quote me do so in context!
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You said 'we' and 'our' horses. Forgive me for assuming you were speaking from experience.
 
Changes said:
You miss the point - I'm not saying I know best. That's what some others on here do. What I am trying to do is have you prove your claims, and you haven't.
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Please tell us what claims you want us to prove Changes. Please be careful only to list claims that we have actually made. It will help if you name the claimer. I am sure we will be happy to respond.
 
Changes said:
I've had to rehab a horse that was barefoot and about to be put down because the owner couldn't keep him sound with cracked heels, abscesses, filled legs, you name it. Shoes on and he's never had a wrong step since (three years).
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One horse and one STUPID owner.
 
Changes said:
I worry that horses are going to suffer because their owners have listened to the likes of these egotists pushing barefoot.

..
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I don't see anyone "pushing" barefoot. I see people describing the benefits that they have seen in their own horses and offering their advice to others who want to hear it.

I do see YOU, time and time again pushing people with shod horses NOT to try it, so who's the evangelist round here?

Changes you have still never answered my question from previous threads why you think ponies and cobs are now shod when they were generally not 60 years ago?
 
Holly Hocks - I think your last post was very well written and I totally agree. Also agree with Santapaws re the transition period often needed to condition the feet - having worked with International Grade A horses as a groom, I don't think there are any top riders who would be prepared to take their successfully competing sound horse out of the loop for a few months. If it ain't broke, they're not going to try to fix it!
I also agree that many leisure horses could quite easily cope bf. More and more people are giving it a go and having success, as I did. It's not the easiest option as diet, environment and nutrition play such a huge part.
We could bang on about this for evermore, fact is we will have to agree to disagree. Bf works for many, shoeing works for many, there are good/crap trimmers, farriers. When it boils down to it, what works best for you and your horses is what you are going to do.
FWIW, my opinion only :D, the anti barefoot brigade seem far more evangelistic than us barefooters ;)
 
oberon-do you appreciate fully what navicular disease is as opposed to navicular syndrome?. If so you might appreciate why they are 'still putting horses down with it'.
If you compare dairy holsteins to other cows (e.g beef/jerseys) you see that different breeds have different abilities to grow good feet-holsteins are bred to intensively they often have terrible feet through breeding, so it stands to reason the same stands for horses. Not every horse can grow a 'good foot' nor is it suitable to make sound shod horses go barefoot for the sake of it.
 
SusieT said:
oberon-do you appreciate fully what navicular disease is as opposed to navicular syndrome?. If so you might appreciate why they are 'still putting horses down with it'.
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Susie, Oberon and I and some other barefooters know the mechanism of navicular syndrome, navicular disease, DDFT injury, collateral ligament strain in intimate detail. They can nearly all be resolved with a barefoot rehab, which has a success rate of something around FOUR TIMES conventional treatment with shoeing and drugs, even after shoeing and drugs have already failed.


Do YOU appreciate that most navicular syndrome and navicular disease is actually deep digital flexor tendon strain caused by a toe first landing and most of the rest is collateral ligament damage due to foot imbalance? And yes, there is research to prove that, but you need to MRI or dissect the horse to find it out.

Do YOU know that there is a very low correlation between damage to the navicular bone which is seen on radiographs and diagnosed as navicular disease and the lameness of the horse? That if you radiographed 100 perfectly sound horses something like half of them will have navicular bone changes which would routinely be diagnosed as Navicular disease if the horse was unsound?

Do you personally know a horse who four months ago was given a 20% chance of ever working again by a major veterinary hospital, due to the level of damage to his navicular bones, who was sound after a month of professional barefoot rehab? Have you personally rehabbed a horse who was 24 hours off his appointment to be put to sleep for incurable navicular disease, diagnosed by xrays, who was sound 11 weeks later and has been sound for well over a year since?

No? Thought not.
 
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Santa Paws said:
I don't see anyone "pushing" barefoot. I see people describing the benefits that they have seen in their own horses and offering their advice to others who want to hear it.

I do see YOU, time and time again pushing people with shod horses NOT to try it, so who's the evangelist round here?

Changes you have still never answered my question from previous threads why you think ponies and cobs are now shod when they were generally not 60 years ago?
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I don't push people NOT to try it, I have no preference either way whether a horse is shod or unshod. I shoe if they need it and don't if they don't.
What I object to is the way you push people into trying it, when you don't know their situation, their horse, their location etc, all which seem to be very important to be 'barefoot' as opposed to simply unshod.

You can preach all you like to me about barefoot, but I do believe it's the Emperor's New Clothes for unshod.

I don't recall you asking me that question, but in response to it I'm interested as to how you know that's the case?
I wasn't around sixty years ago, and I have no data to look at to give me an answer.

FWIW, I've known several horses and ponies that hunt perfectly well without shoes, doing what you seem to think is a rarity.

This thread was asking if there are any top class comp horses barefoot. I said there are not, and was disagreed with.

That's the claim I'd like validated.

As far as one horse and one stupid owner, I've seem plenty of them. I was just lucky enough to be given the opportunity to help the one I did.
 
To the dogmatic few that refer to themselves as 'us' and 'we'


Throughout this and other threads you have advocated barefoot as some kind of miracle cure, you have also implied on many occasions the only reason people don't all go barefoot is that they lack commitment. which of course is nonsense. You have tunnel vision, even when debating with open minded people. You refer to shoeing as 'nailing on' shoes or pieces of metal as if it's some kind of barbaric act. You remain totally polarised in you views, even with people like me with mixture of shod and unshod depending on their individual needs. You turn on anyone (en masse) who has the audacity to have a different opinion, however reasonable.

I think you would carry on this thread ad infinitum, in the vain attempt to get the last word.
 
Santa Paws said:
What possible relevance has the fact that top riders still shoe their horses to the huge, huge HUGE number of ponies, cobs and ordinary riding horses who are unnecessarily having steel nailed to their feet?
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it has no relevance what so ever- i don't think anyone has said it does? i can only speak for myself here, but i don't have someone nail steel to my horses feet because the professionals do.
 
Changes said:
You said 'we' and 'our' horses. Forgive me for assuming you were speaking from experience.
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No forgiveness necessary ;) I didn't specifically refer to 'MY' horse, that was where your made your assumption. I was speaking from experience, both mine and that of the many other people with successfully rehabilitated barefoot horses in response to your claim that it is all claptrap. Suggesting its claptrap implies that you believe we're all lying, again... why would we bother?
I'm curious now, if you believe barefoot to be claptrap what do you think we actually do? Do you think CPT has photoshopped the shoes out of her picture? Do you think we're all telling fibs? I get that some people will always want to shoe their horses, makes no odds to me but why do you have such a big issue with people not wanting to shoe their horses?
 
SusieT said:
there is also no evidence for barefoot, and i've done the searches. whereas there is some for remedial shoeing.
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There is NO scientifically valid evidence for remedial shoeing. The studies that have been done have been on tiny numbers with no comparison with unshod horses.
 
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