Genuine rugging question...

Moomin1 said:
Doesn't matter, if they are only in the region of 400g then just shove another ten on, that should take the chill off slightly! :-)
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You are only guessing Moomin that they are 400g. They might be less, then where do you begin to KNOW how many rugs to add? Its a minefield.
 
i have said it before and will say it again, these days there are sooo many rugs to choose from, weight, tog, denier , why on earth would you need to put on more than one heavy weight rug?? Ok put a fleece or whatever underneath just to give that bit extra but, how the hell do they move comfortably??

AND how the ell do horses in COLD countries cope!!
 
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Fii said:
i have said it before and will say it again, these days there are sooo many rugs to choose from, weight, tog, denier , why on earth would you need to put on more than one heavy weight rug?? Ok put a fleece or whatever underneath just to give that bit extra but, how the hell do they move comfortably??
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They have to be very supple to be able to move comfortably.
 
Double layer!!

I have a VERY wussy tb. And he'll be fully clipped if he gets fuzzy. Not had a pure tb through winter before him and he's like a difference species! The other two are only just having rain sheets put on now and he is in a medium weight with a neck. His fur stands up if it's below 20 degrees celsius, and he shivers at the first sniff of rain or wind.
 
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Moomin1 said:
Absolutely right Buds Mum - it's 'fashionable' to clip, rug to the eyeballs and feed ten billion supplements through winter these days. Dear me, I do wonder how horses used to cope when we just had the old canvas rugs with a sheep skin lining stitched in! Lol! I never ever saw my old pony shiver, and he lived til he was 40. Oh, and shoot me down, he spent one winter in his early 30's living out, naked. He made it for nearly another ten years after that without once dropping condition.

Too much pampering and mollycoddling now. :-(
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Moomin, some horses have been "indoors" and wrapped up for generations and generations - like the thoroughbred and other certain sporting breeds. Even going back hundreds of years, the thoroughbred was pampered and wrapped in cotton wool - it has a completely different coat type to a native (seriously, have a look at the hairs close up) and is simply not built for survival in a cold climate. Similarly, some breeds come from very hot climates and find our constant damp difficult to adjust to.

If you have only owned native breeds or native x's (horses that have evolved over hundreds of years to cope with british weather unaided) I can understand why you might think that modern rugging trends are ridiculous. I wouldn't dream of rugging our two Irish x's to the same extent that I do the tb. I have had native types that have been naked all through the snow and been happy and relaxed. I think my thoroughbred would die. He makes it very obvious when he is cold, and hangs around the gate shivering and looking pathetic. Have you ever owned a blood horse? I think you would understand why we wrap them up if you had.
 
Pigeon said:
Moomin, some horses have been "indoors" and wrapped up for generations and generations - like the thoroughbred and other certain sporting breeds. Even going back hundreds of years, the thoroughbred was pampered and wrapped in cotton wool - it has a completely different coat type to a native (seriously, have a look at the hairs close up) and is simply not built for survival in a cold climate. Similarly, some breeds come from very hot climates and find our constant damp difficult to adjust to.

If you have only owned native breeds or native x's (horses that have evolved over hundreds of years to cope with british weather unaided) I can understand why you might think that modern rugging trends are ridiculous. I wouldn't dream of rugging our two Irish x's to the same extent that I do the tb. I have had native types that have been naked all through the snow and been happy and relaxed. I think my thoroughbred would die. He makes it very obvious when he is cold, and hangs around the gate shivering and looking pathetic. Have you ever owned a blood horse? I think you would understand why we wrap them up if you had.
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Yes I have owned a 3/4 tb, and a 1/2 tb, 1/4 arab, 1/4 Welsh. I also come across horses daily, all different types in all different scenarios, environments, and body conditions.

Oh, and did I mention that my ex partner's parents bred racehorses? Not one of their horses was rugged to any of the extents I mention as being concerning. All of them were in fantastic health and fitness.
 
justabob said:
I have skimmed through the plethora of rug threads with absolute amazement. I think the poster that made me want to even to reply to such a banal thread was the forum member that has ex-racehorses and dressage is her thing, they are apparently very *supple* a word that was used in all her posts. I am sure that they were indeed *supple* I would guess that they were melting. One can always justify buying rugs and wanting to dress your horse up in numerous rugs if that is your thing. Surely it should just be common sense and not really worthy of such deep discussion. Oh and just to add, dogs die in hot cars, but can survive quite well in cols ones.
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Would love to see what condition yours are in compared to those two horses, they are in absolutely top condition and seem happy and relaxed, as well as being very successful in competition - whatever they're doing, they're doing right!
 
Pigeon said:
Moomin, some horses have been "indoors" and wrapped up for generations and generations - like the thoroughbred and other certain sporting breeds. Even going back hundreds of years, the thoroughbred was pampered and wrapped in cotton wool - it has a completely different coat type to a native (seriously, have a look at the hairs close up) and is simply not built for survival in a cold climate. Similarly, some breeds come from very hot climates and find our constant damp difficult to adjust to.

If you have only owned native breeds or native x's (horses that have evolved over hundreds of years to cope with british weather unaided) I can understand why you might think that modern rugging trends are ridiculous. I wouldn't dream of rugging our two Irish x's to the same extent that I do the tb. I have had native types that have been naked all through the snow and been happy and relaxed. I think my thoroughbred would die. He makes it very obvious when he is cold, and hangs around the gate shivering and looking pathetic. Have you ever owned a blood horse? I think you would understand why we wrap them up if you had.
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I must have a different sort of TB's . They only require rugging in winter when clipped. They can even live outdoors.
 
Pigeon said:
Would love to see what condition yours are in compared to those two horses, they are in absolutely top condition and seem happy and relaxed, as well as being very successful in competition - whatever they're doing, they're doing right!
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HAPPY AND RELAXED?!! Are you kidding? They can't leave the yard without exploding and rearing vertically!!! (Or to be fair - one of them can't!)
 
Moomin1 - i was completely with you in your outrage of a horse wearing 8 rugs but that then became 5 and now that doesnt seem to be right...

If horses were routinely wearing 8 rugs or horses were keeling over from over rugging then i could see why you have posted strongly on the subject on and off all day but although i agree that horses cam be pampered and mollycoddled these days it seems that generally no harm comes of it

You madea really good point earlier about rugging for the individual horse so maybe let the person who owns that horse decide what the horse needs
 
Moomin1 said:
Yes I have owned a 3/4 tb, and a 1/2 tb, 1/4 arab, 1/4 Welsh. I also come across horses daily, all different types in all different scenarios, environments, and body conditions.
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Welshes are natives and arabs are very hardy! Winters in the deserts and steppes are freezing.
No purebred tb then? No standardbred or hanoverian? (or any other purebred 'indoor' breed?)

I have three horses, two half tbs, one pure tb. The halfbreds are both out naked except for rainsheets when it's pelting it down. The thoroughbred is wrapped up in a mw with a neck and still wants to come in when it rains. I have had two horses in my life that never once needed a rug, so I am not one of these zealous over-ruggers, and I still find that the tb needs a ridiculous amount of wrapping up!!

A pure tb is a totally different kettle of fish, especially one that has always been stabled 24/7 (as mine was before I got him, he now lives out) - and I was as surprised as anybody about how wussy he is and what a stupid amount of rugs he needs. He's the sort that you need to quarter your rug when grooming, and put his saddle pad on for a few minutes before the saddle to let it warm up. Something I have never needed to bother with before, despite owning horses of various breeds. It's pathetic, it really is, and I'd rather not be up and down the yard constantly catering to his every whim, but it makes for a happier horse, and I think seeing as you haven't any experience at all of rugging an over dramatic, un-waterproof tb, it makes your judgement of others seem a bit, ungrounded, I suppose.
 
Pigeon said:
Moomin, some horses have been "indoors" and wrapped up for generations and generations - like the thoroughbred and other certain sporting breeds. Even going back hundreds of years, the thoroughbred was pampered and wrapped in cotton wool - it has a completely different coat type to a native (seriously, have a look at the hairs close up) and is simply not built for survival in a cold climate. Similarly, some breeds come from very hot climates and find our constant damp difficult to adjust to.

If you have only owned native breeds or native x's (horses that have evolved over hundreds of years to cope with british weather unaided) I can understand why you might think that modern rugging trends are ridiculous. I wouldn't dream of rugging our two Irish x's to the same extent that I do the tb. I have had native types that have been naked all through the snow and been happy and relaxed. I think my thoroughbred would die. He makes it very obvious when he is cold, and hangs around the gate shivering and looking pathetic. Have you ever owned a blood horse? I think you would understand why we wrap them up if you had.
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Pigeon-I like you, and usually I like your posts, but you're not strictly correct here. Not all that long ago, the majority of competition horses and resting racehorses were roughed off and turned away for the winter - mostly unrugged, or occasionally in a canvas NZ. TB broodmares and youngstock aren't rugged ever. It all boils down to the individual horse, or to be completely honest - the individual owner!

No-one really roughs off properly any more, so horses never get acclimatised. Really - natives shouldn't need rugging at all, and clipped, fit sports horses always used to cope fine with a jute and blankets, and a canvas NZ. I'm not saying it's a bad thing to want to rug up like mad,if that's how people want to manage their horses - just that we are slowly taking away the natural ability of the horse to regulate its own temperature. The thing that does bother me is people being delighted that their horses feel toasty under their rugs, when actually, that's not really healthy for them. Incidentally - mine are rugged, and I have no issue with putting a liner under a heavyweight on them, but only when its well below freezing and they genuinely need it - in the field overnight for instance
 
Moomin1 said:
HAPPY AND RELAXED?!! Are you kidding? They can't leave the yard without exploding and rearing vertically!!! (Or to be fair - one of them can't!)
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Moomin, I will quote one of the only other threads of yours I have read:

"My girl can be a bit of a nightmare, particularly hacking (although mainly when she is alone) and gets very het up in new situations. I have had some really disheartening hacks out on my own where she ends up so wound up she starts roaring like a dragon and frothing up all over!"


Some people have sharp horses. Maybe yours is like that because you're not rugging it enough!! :wink3:

Seriously though, I was fully about to agree with you about the 5 hw rug thing (how would you even get them done up!! And surely after the first two you've reached optimum insulation and are just adding weight?) but it seems that is a total misunderstanding?
 
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If anyone thinks I am over rugging my fine coated, thin skinned, poor doer they are welcome to pay my feed bill. They will soon be up for adding an extra rug!
 
Auslander said:
Pigeon-I like you, and usually I like your posts, but you're not strictly correct here. Not all that long ago, the majority of competition horses and resting racehorses were roughed off and turned away for the winter - mostly unrugged, or occasionally in a canvas NZ. TB broodmares and youngstock aren't rugged ever. It all boils down to the individual horse, or to be completely honest - the individual owner!

No-one really roughs off properly any more, so horses never get acclimatised. Really - natives shouldn't need rugging at all, and clipped, fit sports horses always used to cope fine with a jute and blankets, and a canvas NZ. I'm not saying it's a bad thing to want to rug up like mad,if that's how people want to manage their horses - just that we are slowly taking away the natural ability of the horse to regulate its own temperature. The thing that does bother me is people being delighted that their horses feel toasty under their rugs, when actually, that's not really healthy for them. Incidentally - mine are rugged, and I have no issue with putting a liner under a heavyweight on them, but only when its well below freezing and they genuinely need it - in the field overnight for instance
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No, that's true, though also agree that very few are roughed off now. Possibly because of all-weather and indoor arenas being much more common, most people compete all year round.

Pip wouldn't die if I left him out in the rain undressed, but he would just hang out by the gate looking miserable and I would rather he grazed! I'm not even one of these that puts on a million rugs (he gets a fleece and a HW if it snows, but apart from that we only go as far as heavyweight, and like I said I've had horses that weren't clipped that never wore a rug) I just thought it was a bit unfair that NMT and PS got jumped on by someone who's never actually owned a tb, when their horses are beautifully produced!
 
Pigeon said:
No, that's true, though also agree that very few are roughed off now. Possibly because of all-weather and indoor arenas being much more common, most people compete all year round.

Pip wouldn't die if I left him out in the rain undressed, but he would just hang out by the gate looking miserable and I would rather he grazed! I'm not even one of these that puts on a million rugs (he gets a fleece and a HW if it snows, but apart from that we only go as far as heavyweight, and like I said I've had horses that weren't clipped that never wore a rug) I just thought it was a bit unfair that NMT and PS got jumped on by someone who's never actually owned a tb, when their horses are beautifully produced!
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They're used to it! If you can't be like em, hate em - seems to be the motto on here! Me - I wouldn't object to being miraculously transformed into a Sparkle Sister for a day or two ;-)
 
Auslander said:
They're used to it! If you can't be like em, hate em - seems to be the motto on here! Me - I wouldn't object to being miraculously transformed into a Sparkle Sister for a day or two ;-)
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Haha me neither, I have complete outfit (not to mention pony!!) envy!
 
Pigeon said:
No, that's true, though also agree that very few are roughed off now. Possibly because of all-weather and indoor arenas being much more common, most people compete all year round.

Pip wouldn't die if I left him out in the rain undressed, but he would just hang out by the gate looking miserable and I would rather he grazed! I'm not even one of these that puts on a million rugs (he gets a fleece and a HW if it snows, but apart from that we only go as far as heavyweight, and like I said I've had horses that weren't clipped that never wore a rug) I just thought it was a bit unfair that NMT and PS got jumped on by someone who's never actually owned a tb, when their horses are beautifully produced!
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I really don't care if they are 'beautifully produced', so may the steak burger from the butcher. Doesn't mean the animal was kept or managed to the best welfare standard.
 
Fii said:
AND how the ell do horses in COLD countries cope!!
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The majority of horses over here do not wear rugs at all, ever! All breeds, including TBs and WBs.

My own horses (TBs, WBs, Arabs, AQHAs, Apps) do all wear rugs however. Once the temperature gets below -10c my horses are all in mediumweight rugs (they only have 1 mediumweight each) and these rugs do them right down to our chilly days of -40c. They are always toasty warm under them. My very old horses are rugged once the temperatures hit around -3c or -4c depending on how damp it is. Once the real cold comes I put a stable rug under their turnouts.
 
Moomin1 said:
I really don't care if they are 'beautifully produced', so may the steak burger from the butcher. Doesn't mean the animal was kept or managed to the best welfare standard.
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Well Moomin, some may say the same about your horse. If you have blisters on your hands from riding it, think about what you're doing to it's mouth!! :eek3: :eek3: But I am sorry I have looked at your past posts (I hate doing that, I feel like a stalker) but I'm starting to get the feeling that every other thing you post is some kind of provocative thread, usually painting you in the light of being a master horseman because you had an ancient pony, and everyone else as wrong/cruel because they do not. All respect to you for having an oldie and looking after it well, that is truly an achievement to be proud of, but ponies do tend to go on for ever!

Moomin1 said:
Oh and I do recall their Shetland was wearing two hw's or mws at the time also
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You say these things, and PS says they are not so. You can't find a quote, so I'm not going to choose to believe one of you over the other, instead I'll just imagine you said 'some people' put 8/5 HW rugs on their horses, without pointing any fingers. Which is indeed ridiculous, and probably would be cruel unless said horse lived in the arctic. But I very much doubt anyone who reads this forum (who you would at least hope is looking to learn and improve their horsemanship) would be thick enough to put five rugs on anything.

Some people do over-rug, and no it's not ideal. But I have yet to see it at the stage (online or in real life) where a horse has been sweating excessively and could be called cruelty.

Everyone seems to agree - rug for the individual! People's opinions on what is suitable vary, but that will never change and unless it's causing physical harm I don't see the issue. There are no hard and fast rules - like anything with horsemanship. Now I think I have got too involved in this thread, especially since I pretty much agree with you Moomin!! (just thought your accusing of other posters was a bit juvenile) And I stayed up way beyond my bedtime (I had a 4am start today, I've been awake for not far off 24 hours, so sorry if this was all a bit garbled)
 
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Pigeon said:
Moomin, some horses have been "indoors" and wrapped up for generations and generations - like the thoroughbred and other certain sporting breeds. Even going back hundreds of years, the thoroughbred was pampered and wrapped in cotton wool - it has a completely different coat type to a native (seriously, have a look at the hairs close up) and is simply not built for survival in a cold climate. Similarly, some breeds come from very hot climates and find our constant damp difficult to adjust to.

If you have only owned native breeds or native x's (horses that have evolved over hundreds of years to cope with british weather unaided) I can understand why you might think that modern rugging trends are ridiculous. I wouldn't dream of rugging our two Irish x's to the same extent that I do the tb. I have had native types that have been naked all through the snow and been happy and relaxed. I think my thoroughbred would die. He makes it very obvious when he is cold, and hangs around the gate shivering and looking pathetic. Have you ever owned a blood horse? I think you would understand why we wrap them up if you had.
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I'm not interested in getting into any arguments here, but this ^^^ is simply untrue. TBs, on the contrary, are actually incredibly well equipped to deal with winters without rugs on or minimal rugging. Even indoor horses can become accustomed to living out with no rugs or just one mw on. I own a number of competition horses, both TBs and WBs, and they all live out with just their measly little mw rugs on after it gets down to -10c or thereabouts. Their coats are exactly the same as other horses and yes they do grow huge woolly bear coats when it gets cold. As I said further up, the vast majority of horses over here do not wear rugs ever and no they're not furry little native horses.
 
Loving some of these replies!

Genuine question - when did rugs with necks come into fashion - I missed that. I'm fed up of rugging some of the horses at work, albeit in LW (through the summer at times too!!!!) until the last few days when MW have been the thing, with full necks. When did horses suffer with cold necks - I missed that too? - Does covering their necks, but not completely obviously to allow for movement, so draughts and damp still get in?? REALLY make a difference? (another thing I may have missed).
Personally I REFUSE point blank to purchase/use a turnout with a neck cover thing/full neck. Must add to the weight if damp and don't see the point. Not to mention mane rubs. Mine are naked, pony has yet to ever wear a rug, and mare will wear hers when winter is here. For now, getting fluffy and natural grease is keeping them happy.. and the thin layer of mud too!!
 
Fools Motto said:
Loving some of these replies!

Genuine question - when did rugs with necks come into fashion - I missed that.
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I don't know but I think they are the most unhealthy of creations. I would never ever put my horses in rugs with full necks. I only use conventional shaped rugs although I do have a couple of Rambo wugs (which I actually do not like at all but I bought them because they were on offer!). I read a well written piece a number of years ago which basically said the same as I think in that full necks on rugs are so bad for horses unless the owner lives on site and can turn them down as and when the temperatures fluctuate throughout the day. To put on a rug with the full neck up and then go off to work and leave the horse in it all day long is verging on pretty bad horsemanship imo. The horse cannot escape the heat buildup.
 
horserider said:
Of course horses need lots of rugs. And dogs apparently, even the shaggy ones.

I'm just having a problem finding rugs for the squirrels in the garden and the cows in the meadow behind the house look awfully cold and wet. Perhaps someone would like to start manufacturing rugs for woodland creatures ? If horses can't manage without multiple layers, surely it makes sense to rug everything ?
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Haha!!

Pigeon said:
A pure tb is a totally different kettle of fish.
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No it not. An owner who isn't USED to tbs is a completely different kettle of fish though. Brood mares, young tbs before they come in to be broken, and roughed off tbs out of season NEVER wear rugs. Funnily enough though, pet tbs seem to suddenly need vast quantities of rugs? Perhaps the whole of the racing industry is getting it wrong...?l

Auslander said:
TB broodmares and youngstock aren't rugged ever. It all boils down to the individual horse, or to be completely honest - the individual owner!
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Very true!
 
Moomin1 said:
Absolutely right Buds Mum - it's 'fashionable' to clip, rug to the eyeballs and feed ten billion supplements through winter these days. Dear me, I do wonder how horses used to cope when we just had the old canvas rugs with a sheep skin lining stitched in! Lol! I never ever saw my old pony shiver, and he lived til he was 40. Oh, and shoot me down, he spent one winter in his early 30's living out, naked. He made it for nearly another ten years after that without once dropping condition.

Too much pampering and mollycoddling now. :-(
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Oh I recognize this type of owner . . . fully clipped even though ned is only working four or five times a week - and then for only 30 mins or so and not particularly hard, and then so covered in rugs the poor thing can hardly move. There's one poor horse at our yard who stands in the field pulling at the front of his rug(s) because he is so restricted/fed up.

However . . . some horses are naturally warmer/colder than others so rugging must be tailored to the individual horse rather than some rule by so-called old schoolers . . .

P

P.S. But, yes, excessive layering of modern rugs (most of which are designed to work well on their own) seems daft and unnecessary . . . but what do I know ;)
 
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