German shepherds and sloping backs

RubysGold

RubysGold

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Before I say anything else I just want to say that I'm not trying to spark up an argument. I honestly want to know what people have to say. (Especially people like CaveCanem that own GSD's)

I walk a GSD with a lovely straight back. But you see so many with sloping backs and that can't be good for them can it?! They all seem to get bad back ends so young, and its hardly a surprise.

So, please don't jump on me you guys (Im delicate), just want to know whether I'm right or being ignorant?
 
I am not an expert, so it will be interesting to see what others say, but when we were looking for a GSD pup we found that many parents and pups had extremely sloping backs. OH and I didn't like this, either aesthetically because the dogs looked like they would be crippled, or for health reasons because we were worried that they would be crippled, so we waiting until we found a litter with different conformation.
 
I have a fair bit to say on this but alas its home time for me .... the major problem I have with English type breeders (level topline) is that they don't health score , breed from lines with epilepsy ... I have level working gsd lines and germanic lines with some slope (not extreme) and I wouldn't touch an old english bred GSD with the proverbial barge pole.

Read this to see what a representaive of the alsation'ists gets upto

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/forum/29425.html
 
Haven't clicked on link but can imagine which one it is!:p
Well my dogs are all of german lines, when posed in stance they do have a slope from withers to tail, but relaxed their backs are level, I hope those who met them at the AAD meet up would agree.
Very extreme slopes and angulation of the hindquarter are wrong, although some people still breed for this, the american dogs are probably the worst I would say.
Yes GSD can have problems with their hips, which responsible breeders are trying hard to reduce, ime though a lot of dogs who go off their hind legs in old age are suffering from CDRM rather than hip problems, and I don't believe that is anything to do with the degree of slope of their topline.
I am sure CC will answer your question far more eloquently, I am in a bit of a dash now but will try and elaborate a bit more if the meister hasn't been on.:D
 
Are you talking about seeing pictures of dogs, or seeing dogs in the flesh? Because I have to say, and maybe I am lucky, that I see very few of the 'sloping back(line)s' that people talk about, in the flesh.
The back and the backline are not the same thing, by the way, in a correct dog the back is straight and then there is a gradual slope to the croup.

As for pictures?


These are pictures of the same dog
P1020161.jpg

0120.jpg

gorjass.jpg

111007.jpg

Bodo140.jpg

SP_A0297.jpg

SP_A0351.jpg

english.jpg


These are pictures of the same dog
0124.jpg

00308.jpg

Bodo071.jpg

BeautyShannossberg.jpg

argh010.jpg

Bodo135.jpg

heads053.jpg


Does that change anyone's mind?

"They all seem to get bad back ends so young"
Sorry RG but that is a load of bull and a huge generalisation. Our last five dogs, a mix of old English, old German herding and new German showlines, never had a day's bother with their hind end and when they finally got to old age they succumbed to CDRM which is a condition which actually starts in the brain.

You cannot tell whether a dog has HD unless the hips have been x-rayed and scored.

I actually know very few people who have had dogs with crippling HD. I do know one couple who had a bitch scored 43:43 and they had no idea - she was a champion famed for her movement! They of course, did not breed from her.

There are a lot of dogs with loose back ends which are not exercised properly, plain and simple.

If you don't want a GSD with HD, pick a pup from lines known to throw good hips and where all the ancestors have low scores. And don't let your dog throw itself around too much before the age of 12 months also helps.

Yes there are problems in the breed and I would actually prefer to see the spines x-rayed in breeding stock as well as the hips and elbows, which is the practise in Scandinavian countries.
The issue of hocks is being dealt with as well as per the recommendations from the SV in Germany.

We story for you:
A very well respected vet at my practise told me my dog had bad hips because he seemed uncomfortable on the table when being held down for a scan. She rotated his legs and said he would probably only be sound until the age of five.
I heard her tell another person leaving the surgery £450 lighter with his GSD that ALL GSDs get HD eventually.
When my dog started to show lameness in his right hind, I thought it was curtains.
Took him to my normal vet, who is much sought after among GSD owners here, and he x-rayed the hips.
They're as good as he, myself, or my mother who was a breeder and judge, has ever seen.
Yes, he had hurt his back, when jumping off the top of an A-frame and it cleared up with anti-biotics - if another dog had fallen from that height, they would have broken both their legs.

But if a vet is telling their clients such untruths, what chance do the general public have?!

There are straightback working-line dogs with awful front assembly and epilepsy carriers and the problems are not confined to one type - we need to all work together to produce fit, functional dogs of correct construction and above all, good character.
 
ARGH!!! Not that f*cking Lornaville thread!!!!!

And that should say his back cleared up with anti-inflammatories, not anti-biotics. Sorry some of those pictures are huge.
 
Having read the other replies, I realise this is a lot more complicated than I thought!

I didn't mean to suggest that Dizzy is straight through the back, that would also look weird to me! He does slope but nothing like the really exaggerated (to my eyes) slopping backs we saw in some litters. When we were looking for him we didn't really know anything about lines, but we knew about hip scores, haemophilia and wanted a good temperament.

(His parents' hip scores are 4:5=9 and 8:6=14, both of which are below the breed average of 19 so from what I read that is good and there are negative haemophilia tests all over his pedigree. His dad is Amondahl Nexus and his mum is Velinde Immogen - what is he? German, British or Other?)
 
Dizzy would be a cross of German and English lines, which has always produced superb dogs - just have to watch some of the older English lines for the reasons mentioned.

Was it VelindRe, if so then they used to breed alongside MM's mum :D
Saw Nexus many, many times in the flesh and he was a fabulous dog.
I wouldn't breed above a total score of 10, 12 at a pinch but that's just me and I don't breed :p
 
Oh yes, sorry it does say Velindre Immogen at Nixtev.

That's quite worrying about the hip scores as 14 is quite high then! He's 7 now and not shown any problems yet, which is good I suppose, but no guarrantee. Fingers crossed for Dizzy's hips!
 
No, no, not at all, please don't panic, it's below the average, I'm just a picky cow!!! I'm sure he'll be fine :)
Even dogs with clear hips don't automatically throw good hips themselves, it's just a matter of selecting breeding animals carefully.
 
After Jakey's elbow dysplasia, which the ortho vet said was really, really rare in a small breed, I could do without any more dysplasias!!! Then again maybe we used all our luck with Betty's heart which should have killed her in a few months but is still going strong more than 4 years later!

Anyone like to rehome my dogs? You'll have a great relationship with your vet!
 
Just gone on the website, nice to see his full brother has his CDex and UDex qualifications and is hauling himself over a scale and hurling himself over a spread jump, the poor thing, I don't know how he is managing it :p

Here is Ch. Nexus (although I am sure you have seen him before!)
04_nexus.jpg


I do remember a hoo hah when a judge described him as having an 'elegant' neck or head or something and some of the purists were complaining because 'elegant' wasn't in the breed standard :p
He was a very athletic male.
 
I love the pics of Bella, CC. I think they show so clearly how different you can make their backs look!
I reckon I could get Otto stacked with a slopey back and his is more level than a bookcase, might try it :D He wants to fit in with the cool GSD gang!

You forgot the BMW/Merc comparison though :mad: :D
 
Hehehehe - sorry Hen, will let you explain that one, this time :D

And while I'm in Photobucket!
I know you like this one Hen
00045.jpg

Some pics from shows if anyone cares....
Some youngsters, unstacked
0069.jpg

This is a working male, SchIII, who has been V (excellent) rated in Germany for construction
0091.jpg

This wee female is working lines and is SchIII but was very highly rated in young female classes as a puppy when she had show-going owners.
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(Added to show, the right judges are promoting the right types of dog in a lot of cases. In the events pictured above, only dogs with good hip and elbow scores and working qualifications can compete at the top tier. Without, you can still win prizes, but you can only go so far. A good system, IMO!)
 
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So what do you think of the GSD BOB at Cruft`s?? When I saw it it was walking so low at the back it must have bruised it`s testicles! Comments??
 
RubysGold said:
Before I say anything else I just want to say that I'm not trying to spark up an argument. I honestly want to know what people have to say. (Especially people like CaveCanem that own GSD's)

I walk a GSD with a lovely straight back. But you see so many with sloping backs and that can't be good for them can it?! They all seem to get bad back ends so young, and its hardly a surprise.

So, please don't jump on me you guys (Im delicate), just want to know whether I'm right or being ignorant?
Click to expand...

This is meant in the nicest way (honest!) but yes, you are being a bit ignorant. It's ok, I'm ignorant about GSDs too, but I've learnt such a lot from reading previous GSD threads - start by looking at all those fabby pics CC has posted. Generalisations can be (and indeed, are) made about any breed but some decent research goes a long way. :)
 
Lagos? His hips and elbows are good.
He has his SchIII (So, does the full routine, the same as what that last bitch is doing, plus tracking, plus obedience) and his AD (20km endurance test off a bike) so I have every reason to believe he is sound - he just isn't great, as are very few German Shepherds, at moving on a slippy green carpet. As Hen mentioned, like a BMW :p the GSD's movement, the low, ground-covering gait, is propelled forwards from the rear and a lot of dogs find it hard to get a grip on carpet, especially as every other show or trial or training they undergo takes place on grass.

However I have not seen him in the flesh so cannot say definitively what I think about him.

Here he is:
Lagos.jpg


If I was being critical I would say that he should have been better prepared for a show like that. SchIII should produce a dog that can gait at heel, on television it looked as if he was being held back and of course that will make the dog dip behind.

Here is Loretta from Shotaan, who was BoB and took second in the group at Crufts a few years ago. She had obviously been well prepared and was superbly handled and she was foot perfect, a beautiful female, I had tears in my eyes watching her.
http://www.shotaan.co.uk/loretta.html
Hopefully you can see what I mean about the movement!
 
I'm sorry, don't hate me. But all those photos show exactly what I was talking about.

I don't know anyone with GSD's (except the one I walk), so I know nothing of the breed. I think I'm used to my straight backed dogs because collies aren't supposed to have sloping backs.
Seeing CC's photos did show that some photos can show it differently to others though.
CC, I still love your 2, they're lovely. :)
 
CaveCanem said:
"They all seem to get bad back ends so young"
Sorry RG but that is a load of bull and a huge generalisation. Our last five dogs, a mix of old English, old German herding and new German showlines, never had a day's bother with their hind end and when they finally got to old age they succumbed to CDRM which is a condition which actually starts in the brain.
Click to expand...

Sorry, I was just going what I've heard. I think anyone who has no experience in GSD's will think the same thing. What is CDRM
 
RubysGold said:
But all those photos show exactly what I was talking about.
Click to expand...

I don't know what you mean? Some of those pics show my dogs with a gentle slope to the croup (which is included in the international breed standard), some show them with backlines so straight you could eat your dinner off them, depends how I've caught them with the camera, how much pressure I am putting on the lead etc. So sorry, I don't understand your point.

"What I've heard" is the problem. Lots of people "hear" things, I'd rather people based their statements on what they "see" or even better, what they "know". Hope that helps.

CDRM:
http://www.alternativevet.org/cdrm.htm

Harkback is actually the person to ask, they are very knowledgeable about it!
It attacks the nerves that control the back legs and then eventually the front.
 
I was at crufts (and got a 1st too:D) , Lagos is a very nice dog, as Cavecanem says he has good hip and elbow scores, and SCHIII is not easy to do so he must have a bit of brains! He moved well earlier on when I saw him but I didn't stay till later on so don't know how he was later
 
I meant, their front end is higher then the back.Their back ends look like they're about to sit down :/
I think I'm getting the hang of this though, from reading your replies, I can see thats just what GSD's are meant to be like.
BUT I just have one more question?
What were GSD's like before KC got hold of them? I look at alot of pedigree dogs and the KC have ruined them. But did the GSD always have a lower back end?
 
Have just read some of the page about CDRM. Doesnt the fact it affects the spine and mostly GSD's prove that its the shape of their back causing an issue?
 
RubysGold said:
I meant, their front end is higher then the back.Their back ends look like they're about to sit down :/
I think I'm getting the hang of this though, from reading your replies, I can see thats just what GSD's are meant to be like.
BUT I just have one more question?
What were GSD's like before KC got hold of them? I look at alot of pedigree dogs and the KC have ruined them. But did the GSD always have a lower back end?
Click to expand...

Sorry, maybe I've been blinded by so many years of looking at them but I cannot see where my dogs look like they are about to sit down.
But that's by the by. I can show you a million pics of my dogs and others jumping, running at full stretch, taking down helpers in bite suits but that would get boring.

Yes, the GSD is supposed to be straight along the BACK and then a gentle slope from the end of the back to the croup which makes up the backLINE, from the withers to the tail, yes, there should, according to the standard, be a slight difference in height.
Here, have a look at these:
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/info/15.html
http://www.total-german-shepherd.com/images/GSDskeleton.gif
http://sarjettegsd.webs.com/breedstandard.htm

I would say that the German standard has had more of an influence than the KC. You have to remember that the GSD is only just over 100 years old and has ALWAYS been a work in progress. The founding father of the breed spent his later lifetime making changes and improvements and every year different aspects are discussed at the top levels and different dogs are recommended for improving the pertinent faults.

The problem with the KC is they are refusing to implement health tests as a prerequisite to registering puppies. The 'German' faction want the KC to stop registering puppies from parents with no hip/elbow scores, or high scores, puppies from males without a haem test.

The KC keep coming back and asking the German fraternity to correct an issue with hocks, which is being done, but there is no health test to determine if a dog's hocks will be loose or not.
And outside attraction - which does not harm the dogs but the KC does not like. I think it adds to the atmosphere :p

As a result some factions of the GSD world are running their own shows and trials under SV (German) rules away from the kennel club. These, like ours, require health tests and working qualifications for the dogs to be able to compete at the top level and therefore hopefully be promoted as the dogs to breed from.

The hocks are a problem that people can see, but they do not cause any pain to the dog and CAN in some cases be corrected with proper exercise.
HD and ED cannot be seen but DO often cause pain and heartache for owner and dog alike.

Judges can and should penalise dogs with loose hocks. At the show pictured above, I was there all day and heard no criticism of hocks, quite the opposite.

Anyhoo, not sure if that has cleared things up any....
 
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