Get tough you big softie.... how :S

its more often when he is going clockwise.
I cant recall him doing it on the other rein actually hmmm


tallyho! said:
Yes a simple "good boy" a stroke or a scratch (I don't like patting or slapping) anything you normally use that he knows is a good sign from you he's done the right thing. And be consistent with that too!

There is much in the stopping the stopping the aid as soon as he responds... it's called the "descent de mains" or lower the hand literally - but essentially it's 1. Aid 2. Response. 3. Descent de mains. No point nagging away once you've got what you want so go back to being soft and allowing.

The fence thing... is it only on one rein? Or both?
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This is fantastic, I will deffo try this tactic! but hopfuly he wont feel the need to do this if he knows I mean business as soon as I mount :D


Auslander said:
Lots of useful advice above, so I won't add to it - but there is one thing! The scraping you on the school fence thing. A useful tip for stopping that in its tracks is to turn the horses head towards the fence he's trying to scrape you on - so that his nose is closer to the fence than your leg. No horse in it's right mind is going to bash it's own face on a fence - it tends to put them off that little trick very quickly. Outside bend also moves the horses quarters off the fence, so that your leg is no longer getting squished!
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Notimetoride said:
IIts not pretty - elegance goes out the window, but it really is a case of you WILL do this and you will do it NOW sort of approach. Until you toughen up yourself, it may be tricky, but a tougher instructor will help. I am sometimes perhaps a little soft then something clicks in my head (I get fed up of her messing around) and thats when i actually pick up my horse and start to ride her. Dont get me wrong, im not saying be harsh, im just saying up your expectations and accept nothing less.
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Haha! I know exactly where you're coming from, I was going to post exactly the same thing - I often ride better when horse has peed me off slightly right at the start so I'm a bit cross with him - because then I ride like I actually mean it, rather than just suggesting to him it might be quite nice if he did as I'm asking. I do think some people find it naturally harder than others, but it can be learned - I'm getting much better.
 
Horsekaren said:
This is fantastic, I will deffo try this tactic! but hopfuly he wont feel the need to do this if he knows I mean business as soon as I mount :D
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It's not pretty, but I'm absolutely not prepared to compromise on this particular behaviour. I have surgery scars on my right knee as a direct result of a horse trying to scrape me off on the side of a school! Never again!
 
All I would add is to make sure that you are not giving the pony mixed messages. When he naps and you are trying to make him go forward, be sure that you are not putting too much pressure on your reins when he does go forward.

When I have something that is napping/refusing to go forward I will put my hands right forward and only block if the pony tries to go sideways. You want to almost make it like an open door. If they try and go backwards then your legs are on firm closing the door. If they try and turn one way or the other then you block them from doing so with your reins and keeping legs on, again closing the door. The only release and 'open door' is to go forward.
 
I'm all for asking nicely, then really meaning it. I would also have no qualms about carrying a whip in my outside hand and making it very clear that taking me out on the fence is not acceptable. Provided, of course, that the pony is capable of doing the job, in every sense.

Caol Ila said:
I personally would not hit a horse in the shoulder to improve the forward. You want the horse to move away from the whip, which is why I use a dressage whip behind my leg. If you hit the shoulder, that seems like an aid that would confuse a horse or stop the forward. I dunno.... People do it in hunter/jumper land, so it must work sometimes. I just don't like it.
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Horses for courses - logic told me this too, and I remember being bellowed at by an angry instructor as a child for doing it - but one of mine really responds to being tapped up on the shoulder - he lifts his front end and moves his shoulder more. It clearly makes sense to him... If you use a whip behind your leg, he actually backs off it as he moves away from the whip by moving his quarters laterally.
 
JFTD said:
I'm all for asking nicely, then really meaning it. I would also have no qualms about carrying a whip in my outside hand and making it very clear that taking me out on the fence is not acceptable. Provided, of course, that the pony is capable of doing the job, in every sense.



Horses for courses - logic told me this too, and I remember being bellowed at by an angry instructor as a child for doing it - but one of mine really responds to being tapped up on the shoulder - he lifts his front end and moves his shoulder more. It clearly makes sense to him... If you use a whip behind your leg, he actually backs off it as he moves away from the whip by moving his quarters laterally.
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Every horse is different! Mine says, "Screw you too!" when hit on the shoulder but responds to the dressage whip behind my leg.

Without seeing the OP and her horse, it's impossible to know how much of her problems come from her not being tough enough and the horse taking the pi$$, or how much come from the horse not understanding or being able to do what is being asked of it. I'm all for 'make him do it,' but it's unfair to whack a horse around when it can't.

That said, I'd follow Auslander's advice about him running her into the fence, but I'd want to know why. Is he being a jerk for the sake of it or is he trying to communicate something?
 
Absolutely, CI - most of the posts here are presuming that the OP's trainers have been able to observe the horse and assess that it is capable of the action requested of it - that it's sound, fit and understands the OP's aids. I would say, though, that I think it's absolutely unacceptable to nag and push a horse around as the OP is currently doing, if it's not capable of doing the job. A sharp smack (nobody is advocating beating), is one form of pressure, which would be excessive to some horses, but constant, inescapable low level pressure is equally unsettling to many horses. When I said horses for courses, I mean, it's worth trying different things, even if they don't seem "logical", because horses don't read the text books. If it works, within reason, it's worth pursuing. If it doesn't, tomorrow is another day.

Caol Ila said:
That said, I'd follow Auslander's advice about him running her into the fence, but I'd want to know why. Is he being a jerk for the sake of it or is he trying to communicate something?
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I have a policy of "it's not acceptable" regardless of what the horse is feeling. I'd definitely want to know if there's a reason for it - but that doesn't mean I wouldn't reprimand a horse for doing it. There are plenty of less dangerous ways for a horse to communicate problems - it's the rider's job not to make the horse shout. So I have no qualms about telling a horse it's unacceptable in no uncertain terms. But I'd be assessing whether there were any subtler, underlying communications that the horse isn't happy which I'd missed too... And if there were, I'd be more disappointed that I'd missed those, than that I'd told the horse it was unacceptable to behave in a dangerous manner.
 
I was also going to say about the blocking... especially if you are using a lot of leg, it made a big difference to my partnership me becoming a legs off rider, I was stopping his forwards movement even with light gripping otherwise, finding the true feel of legs off was quite revelatory. He will let you nag all day long if you want to and still not go forwards, and waggle his head from side to side just to be extra helpful

Also I installed for him that the first cue to move forwards is leg off, I tend to use this out hacking a lot (as walk is his worse pace for getting you to nag)
 
Horsekaren said:
its more often when he is going clockwise.
I cant recall him doing it on the other rein actually hmmm
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This to me indicates that he's hollow to the right and probably tracks with his forehand more to the fence than his hind on this rein. He's crooked that's all no need for punishment here, you need to straighten him so give him a chance and don't go so close to the fence in the first place but raise your outside hand so he "looks" a bit more to the outside and encourage him with your outside leg on the girth/weight to inside. This should bring his shoulders more in front of his quarters - similar to what another poster said about turning him to the fence as that in itself will bring the shoulders in - it's all about the shoulders.
 
I guess I know how you feel!!

It's a case of not being scared to tell him off!! don't tickle him with the whip, he won't respect it. If he ignores your leg, use your whip properly!! he will soon realise that you mean it!

I was really nervous bring my horse back into work after injury, because he'd become a rearer through pain!! he did take the absolute pee to start with but I was scared to push him because of pain memory!! after 6 months, he knew it didn't hurt anymore but still tried it on, so I used some small spurs!! I've never used spurs in my life, so was very scared to use them!! and once I did, we go over his disgust but it made life much easier!! I've now taken them off for hacking but will use them in the school still but we are getting there slowly but surely!! but I'm so much firmer with him now!! I had to be! he's a big, strong, young boy and he knew it! now he's quite the gent!

I was super impressed when I managed to get him past something, without spurs the other day, which my friends horse was refusing to go past, as he does prefer to follow when in company, but happy to go out a lone!! weirdo!! we are now working on going in front on group hacks!! always something to work on :)
 
getting tough is needed here, with all the people who can tell you what to do but not how to do it, with whoever broke this poor horse in and failed to train it correctly, and with yourself.
you need to sit down and think this through from the horses point of view, then take 50 steps back and start from scratch, use your legs to get him go forward the instant he does, reward him, take one step at a time, the main reason horses are like this is because they don`t know any better and because they are not working , and are therefore unfit, and being ridden by someone who is unsure how to show them the way forward.
you need to use your brain, if he rubs you up the wall ride away from the inside track, use your outside rein and your whip on the outside shoulder, and learn two important facts, anticipate he is likely to rub you as soon as he deviates his quarters by using your outside leg more strongly, if he tend to do this in the same place take action 15 yards in advance, you could leg yield away from the track at this point, when he is better trained his response to forward leg aids and his straightness will mean you can actually control him enough to ride through these problems.

this is why you need to start from scratch, the most basic schooling is lacking, do small things well, heap rewards on him, for the smallest thing done well, you need him on your side, he needs to feel self esteem and that he is `a good boy`who is doing it right, even to just trot round the arena straight on a soft contact, and halt nicely then go forward again would be a place i would start and build on that.
 
I'd add to tristar's post that you need to get tough with your instructors - however nice they may be as people they are not helping you or the horse. They're basically yelling at you to beat your horse (bruised legs and hitting with sticks - ffs - that is really, really not good - what would you think if you saw someone do that to a dog?!?) and failing to help you make any progress. Are they in a RS? Horse on working livery? (Just guessing, I didn't get a minute to read all the middle pages of this thread)... I'd get a really sensible and sensitive trainer in (from outside the RS) who can come up with better strategies than beating the horse and explain them in a way that you understand. There is no shame in acknowledging that there are some points in time when some trainers do not suit some horse/rider combinations.
 
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