Getting in your own way (aka first world problems)

[Caol Ila]

I know peope have real problems and this isn't one. But I wanted to say it somewhere. That's what this forum is for, right?

Alan Davies is doing a clinic at my yard (as I mentioned elsewhere), and when it was announced, I dithered over signing up, and then didn't. My reasoning? Why the hell is this guy who's worked with horses like Valegro going to take us at all seriously and put any effort into thinking about what we are doing? I'm on a little ex-feral Highland, and my dressage queen days are long gone. I don't have any dressage tack anymore. He has a TreeFree Exmoor saddle, and either a Western headstall with a snaffle bit, or his ridiculous medieval cross browband bridle with his Myler combo bit.

We won't even discuss Hermosa. I would bet a million bucks that most British dressage riders would look at that bosal and say, WTF is that? You do not ride contact in it the same way as you do using traditional English methods. And she has a ridiculous Iberian saddle to boot.

My last attempt at instruction on Fin traumatised me (and him). I had to spend months fixing him after that lesson. Definitely caused more problems than it solved. The trainer was rattling off instructions but not at all focused on what we needed or agile enough to help us when things were going pear shaped (yelling "just don't let him do that" is surprisingly unhelpful....if 500kg of pony decides that corner is really scary, and he is not going into it, what do you expect 50kg of me to do about it? On my own, I would have worked around the corner, a la Warwick Schiller stuff, or decided I needed to do more in-hand work in the indoor, or something else). And like six months before that, I had a lesson with a clinican who was pretty well regarded. I explained that this was Fin's second time being ridden in the (outdoor) school for longer than 10 minutes, due to prior trauma and being feral, yadda, yadda, and he was operating at the level of a barely ridden away 4yo. My logic was that a lesson would help us. I mean, these people have more experience with green horses than I do. Did it aye. The chap's response was, "Will I set up a jump then?" Jesus Christ on a f(ckin bike.

I'm kind of regretting not signing up for Alan's lesson. It might have really helped us. But I thought, who am I? I'm just this total punter of a happy hacker and don't deserve this, and he might be like the trainers described in the above paragraph. Just doing what they do regardless of the horse/rider in front of them. But he might not be. He probably isn't. I wish I was less insecure.

 

[stangs]

a) It’s a paid opportunity. You don’t need to “deserve” it, you just need to pay. And there’s no shame in leaving if it goes wrong. “I think he’s had enough for today” and off you pop.


b) Think of Tik Maynard’s cafeteria horsemanship. There are lessons to be learnt from ‘traditional horsemanship’, and if you try and shut yourself out of that community completely, then you’re limiting your own learning.


c) Alan Davies taught PC. He’s probably done lessons with real Thelwell types, so I doubt he’d bat an eye at doing a lesson with a Highland type in Scotland. Besides, in the end, they’re all just horses, aren’t they?

 

[Caol Ila]

I should have emphasised that when I take Fin in the school, we are in fact doing pretty straightforward dressage. Just in not-so-traditional tack. But that's my background. On a tricky pony, I went with what I was good at rather than screwing around with the vaquero stuff (and riding him in the hackamore was a great way to wind up somewhere lost in the trees... different story).

Signing Hermosa up for a lesson wth someone not familiar with the hackamore is just kind of naff because the approach to contact is so, so different. She was never in contention for this lesson if I'd done it. It was only Fin.

 

[LEC]

You do know Alan’s biggest love is Shetlands?!? He ain’t that bothered by fancy dressage horse. His heart lies with hairies.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

You are not put on this planet to prove your worth to other people - one of my favourite quotes ever.

Do what makes you happy and if you don’t enjoy it when you get there, leave. You make money every time you work, you can only make memories once

 

[Caol Ila]

You do know Alan’s biggest love is Shetlands?!? He ain’t that bothered by fancy dressage horse. His heart lies with hairies.

I did not know that.

Now I really wished I’d signed up,

 

[Red-1]

I did not know that.

Now I really wished I’d signed up,

I would add yourself to a wait list. A place may become available. It happens surprisingly often.

 

[gunnergundog]

Meet supergroom Alan Davies’ adorable Shetland foal | Horse & Hound

When he isn't caring for Carl Hester and Charlotte Dujardin’s megastar dressage horses, supergroom Alan Davies shows adorable Shetlands and has a new foal

www.horseandhound.co.uk

 

[maya2008]

I find watching trainers teach much more useful than having a lesson on a quirky horse. Their own horses would have always been bred for the job, athletic and without major issues - that’s what you choose if you want something to perform to a high level. So most trainers haven’t a clue what to do with a bog standard, perhaps not conformationally perfect horse/pony with issues.

Guy down the road from us - brilliant eventer, really knowledgeable person, rides beautifully and trains his horses really nicely. Could he work out how to help my son with his cheeky Shetland? Nope. He just told me to buy him a different pony, that Shetlands were just like that and we were on a hiding to nothing. Person who helped in the end was only just an AI but had a quirky horse herself and was willing to both take a 5 year old child seriously and work with the pony he loved.

Could he help with with my little pssm mare? No, because he didn’t really listen when I explained her limitations, then went, ‘Ohhh I see what you’re talking about now’ when he ignored them and she showed symptoms.

I’ve learned loads from watching though, and then gone home to use what I learned on my ponies - so I would say watch, if you can, and don’t worry about not signing up.

 

[southerncomfort]

CI - completely get where you're coming from.

The large equestrian centre just 5 minutes from us has started running summer clinics with various different flavours of instructors. So far I've talked myself out of every single one.

Mostly it's doubting my own abilities and worrying about making a complete @rse of myself. (When I get nervous I ride like an absolute muppet!).

But also comparing my little (awesome!) hairy Fell pony and our Thorowgood saddle to the dressage horses in their expensive tack etc, and just thinking 'nah....we'll go for a nice long hack instead'.

I actually wonder though if instructors secretly enjoy the challenge of teaching riders on unconventional (hairy/awesome!) ponies.

 

[dorsetladette]

I think the have a name for that feeling now @Caol Ila - isn't it called impostor syndrome?

I can totally relate to that - I constantly have this feeling. It makes you question your decision making, riding techniques, ability, etc, etc, its really hard sometimes. But thanks to HHO suggestions I have got a handle on it more now. Mine relates to the dreaded menopause!

In your shoes I'd put my name on a waiting list, that way its sort of out of your control if you get a space or not.

also watching is a great way to pick up tips without being to involved in the teaching part so no worry of not fitting in, everyone watching, not getting it right etc etc

 

[MuddyMonster]

Get yourself on a wait list

I've had brilliant lessons with an eventer in the past who didn't turn a hair we (native pony & I) were riding in a rope halter or bitless bridle and treeless saddles at the time.

I currently have classical lessons with an instructor who after teaching me on my native kept on a working farm with not so posh facilties in our endurance bridle & synthetic tack that almost definitely has mud from our last hack on, pops off to teach a lady on her GP horse at their v.posh home with shiny facilties. They've never been anything but kind, encouraging and enthusiastic about us.

Not all are, admittedly, but that's when you advocate for yourself and your horse.

 

[ihatework]

I've been debating whether to post or not and have decided to and very much hope I get the tone right and my point across in the way I intend.

You have every right to book on the lesson, of course you do. You want to learn and any professional is being paid to give their time to you (whether the pro is good, or professional cannot be guaranteed - but if they aren't that's on them not you!).

But - you identify that you quite often do your own thing your way. That is also fine, no judgement from me! So I feel that you have to understand that not every equestrian professional will have the understanding of your thing! The good ones should have sufficient tools in their kit to be able to help you at that moment in time achieve what you need to do. I mean, it shouldn't be about 'dressage', its about how to effectively ride a horse in any given situation.

I have no insight into Alan and his training so this is just a general observation - I think its great that he has equine interest outside of world class dressage, but he has also spent many many years absorbing world class dressage from the side lines, so I don't think it would be unfair to assume that his training may well have a significant influence from that.

Given your slightly alternative approach, then if you do go into this or other lessons with trainers who aren't obviously aligned from the outset - I think it would be very useful for you to be clear from the outset what it is you want to achieve from the lesson and be prepared to communicate that up front to the trainer. That way you will be more likely to set the lesson up to succeed.

PS - this isn't me saying don't have the lesson, it's more me acknowledging why you feeling reticent might be valid, but potentially for not quite the way you have pitched it.

 

[tda]

I'd say get on the wait list too, and if that fails, a spectator place if available.

 

[DressageCob]

I know what you mean. I used to feel like that, but now I just sign up for anything and everything I fancy. I took my little cob for a cross country lesson with William Fox Pitt, despite the fact I'm a wussy jumper and we had no grand eventing ambitions. My big cob trains every fortnight with an Olympian and we have bonus extra lessons with a guy who has coached national teams. It doesn't escape me that we are often the only hairy, that others have more resources, are better riders etc. But what does it matter in the grand scheme of things?

For a one off lesson with someone the worst that can happen is they get a good dinner party story about the absolute numpty who booked in for their clinic. That doesn't matter because I'm not going to be sitting at that table waiting for pudding.

Get on the waiting list

 

[Cortez]

Two things: firstly when teaching someone who is completely new to the trainer, it is very helpful if the client is absolutely clear about what they want to achieve with the horse. And second, not every trainer suits every horse/rider, and that’s OK.

 

[Alibear]

I would also say modern trainers seem more open to alternate ways of working with horses and are very adaptable, which I appreciate. I have lessons with dressage trainers in my western tack. They tell me what they want me to achieve, and then I select from the cues that we have to achieve it. We did nearly make one want to cry with the description of the flying changes we are after, though

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

OP I used to have an Exmoor TreeFree too! If you "get" these saddles, then you'll know just how lovely they are; if you've never sat your backside on one then you won't. I went on from the Exmoor to purchase the then-new design Tor that they brought out - and it was lovely on my two old horses. However sadly on the youngster I bought (now 11!) it just didn't fit her at all well and I sold the one I had a few years ago. I'd kept it for a bit thinking "one day I'll have a horse that this saddle will fit again someday", but then I needed a bit of cash (like you do) so sold it. They are lovely saddles! And living in Devon it was good to have Andrea & Johan come out to do a fitting when I bought the Tor originally. They are great people! Now on Royal Appointment, and very well deserved.

But sorry I digress.

 

[ihatework]

TBH it's only now that I've got a few more miles on the block around horses and am a bit more emotionally aware that I can look back at some lessons I've had in the past and seen them for what they really were.

Example 1 - mid 20's keen but a bit stupid me - 4yo horse (my first youngster) I took to it's first group clinic away from home. At the time big enough named trainer, these days a british team selector. I proudly announce my 4yo had only jumped a couple of cross poles at home and this was his first outing. Training quite pointedly dresses me down and tells me I'm an idiot (paraphrasing) for bringing a relatively unprepared horse to a group jumping clinic. I'm suitably chastised, trainer does his job and actually we have a very good session and at the end he softens and says we did a good job. BUT he was right and it could have gone horribly wrong and to this day I've given a lot more thought about how to expose young horses since then.

Example 2 - during a spell when I was having a real confidence crisis, very good rider friend said I should have a lesson with her marvellous trainer. SJ trainer. Old school. Pretty well known and often referred to as marmite. Well it was a car crash - my already low confidence left shredded and I vowed never to return. Looking back the trainer did nothing wrong from the perspective of what he was asking me to do - it was solid training and well within both horse and rider capability. What he was though was an old school emotionally unintelligent bloke so he was never going to say 'it's ok, let's stop jumping and work on something else today' .... but then I wasn't paying for a therapy session which is what I really needed at that point in time!!!

Ironically example 2 trainer I went back to a few years later on a totally different horse and with a different mindset and we got on like a house on fire and I left full of confidence every single time.

Example 3 - 'classical' long term trainer of mine. He was having a bad day and it resulted in him grabbing my horse by the reins and repeatedly jabbing him very very hard in the mouth in a fit of temper. I did nothing. I'm still ashamed I did nothing (other than quietly over the space of a few months having less lessons and eventually stopping). I understand my emotional response to this now, and find it fascinating. But it does make me more understanding of criticism directed at people who 'do nothing'. Having now experienced that I think I would have the tools to deal with it in real time, but until it happens I'm not sure everyone does.

Sorry, random brain dump.
I find the training process fascinating on what does and does not work for some people.

 

[Cortez]

Insightful post IHW. Back when I was doing a lot of teaching I've often thought (may have even said) that what many pupils needed was a therapist, not a riding lesson.

 

[Highmileagecob]

Depends what your expectations are. In a group lesson situation, you are probably unlikely to unravel what goes on in Fin's head. Working on a one to one basis with someone who understands semi feral natives, and has been there, might produce different results. Looking back over the time you have worked with your horses, I'm certain you have come a long way. Even getting half a ton of opinionated Highland to co-operate with you is an achievement.

 

[JFTDWS]

I’ve taken highlands for training with biggish names - including Harry Meade and Gerd Heuschmann - and had lovely lessons. If they thought ill of my ponies, they kept that very much to themselves. Gerd was lovely about Fergus, particularly. Less so about Daemon, but Harry Meade was nice about him, so it all evens out.

I’ve had truly destructive lessons with people who were much lower level and should’ve been more willing to work with an “ordinary horse / rider combination”.

I had one lesson where a usually reasonable trainer (categorically NOT either of those mentioned above) lost their patience and punched my youngster in the face because he wouldn’t stand still at a mounting block.

My point is, you never really know what you’re going to get. I would probably watch the clinic, with a view to booking on with him if he comes back.

I have massive trust issues with trainers, so I wouldn’t book into a lesson with someone I didn’t know and hadn’t seen teaching.

But in hindsight, when I was trying to train for dressage, I was fighting a whole host of ND-related issues I didn’t even know I had, so I had no idea why people were reacting to me the way they did, or why situations sometimes escalated in ways I found unpredictable and difficult to control. I think that’s been more of an issue for me than anything about my horses’ breeds or training, or my ability in the saddle.

 

[JFTDWS]

Insightful post IHW. Back when I was doing a lot of teaching I've often thought (may have even said) that what many pupils needed was a therapist, not a riding lesson.

I crossed posts with this, but it’s a more succinct version of my last para really!

 

[Rowreach]

I do like watching someone coach before I have a lesson with them, just to be sure that they will actually listen to me as well as teach me (because that's what coaching is all about).

Some of the worst coaching I've ever had, when I was training and didn't have a choice, was from BHS Fellows. Some of the best have been a NZ Olympic eventer who was the most modest chap with a lovely attitude towards more complicated horses, and a woman with no formal coaching qualifications at all.

So to the OP I'd say if you are still dithering, watch him teach and then if he comes back, you'll know whether you'd enjoy a lesson with him.

 

[LEC]

CI - completely get where you're coming from.

The large equestrian centre just 5 minutes from us has started running summer clinics with various different flavours of instructors. So far I've talked myself out of every single one.

Mostly it's doubting my own abilities and worrying about making a complete @rse of myself. (When I get nervous I ride like an absolute muppet!).

But also comparing my little (awesome!) hairy Fell pony and our Thorowgood saddle to the dressage horses in their expensive tack etc, and just thinking 'nah....we'll go for a nice long hack instead'.

I actually wonder though if instructors secretly enjoy the challenge of teaching riders on unconventional (hairy/awesome!) ponies.

This is just a question - but if you don’t fail, how will you get better?
I have trained with some of the world’s best and they are not doing it for free so I never worry. I want to ride well but if it goes wrong, great as that’s learning and with an expert to sort you out.

 

[daffy44]

Speaking from the perspective of the trainer, as thats my job, I dont care what sort of horse you turn up on, I dont care what tack you use as long as it fits, the only thing that really makes or breaks a good lesson is attitude, someone willing to communicate and try is always a pleasure to teach. I also find it fascinating who we learn, as well as being a trainer I've had lessons most of my life and I'm still regularly trained now, I would always advise people to go and watch a lesson with someone they would like to train with, its much better to have an idea of their style before you commit.

 

[Caol Ila]

I'll have to get the rundown from my friend, as the lessons stopped by 2pm today and I could not get out there in time.

I liked my lesson with Joe Midgely. He focused on one or two things and was very good at breaking it down and not flooding me or the horse. I don't think we left the walk but it didn't matter.

I understand southerncomfort's point. There's feeling as if the lesson was hard, maybe feeling like an idiot, but coming out of it having learned something, with things you can work on. That's good! But it's different than coming out of a lesson feeling like you've been shouted at for the last 45 minutes, your horse is more flustered than it started, and you don't have clear things to work on because it sounded like everything was crap. Many of us have been there! And I'm kind of over being there.

For me, the best teachers give positive instruction, telling you what to do instead of what's wrong. Like, "Don't draw your leg up" or "don't let him fall on his forehand" aren't all that helpful. It's like saying to someone, "Don't think of pink elephants." I bet you're all thinking of pink elephants now.

I guess with the two examples I gave in the OP, my main issue was feeling unheard, at the expense of my horse (I obviously said no to the jump, but still). I had said that the horse was green, green as grass, but it's like it went straight over their heads, and they saw a 11/12yr old pony that had just had some sh1t training and been allowed to get away with things. And I was one of those daft wee lassies who make excuses for their horse. We did not do exercises that made sense for a greenie. They were much too advanced. Whereas in my lesson with Joe, we did the exercises you do when starting a baby horse in the hackamore. I said to him, she is 5 and I just started her in the hackamore.

 

[palo1]

Insightful post IHW. Back when I was doing a lot of teaching I've often thought (may have even said) that what many pupils needed was a therapist, not a riding lesson.

This. There is nothing wrong with needing someone to encourage, support and provide some emotional content to your riding but it does seem vital for the rider to know what they want and need from a trainer at any point, and to know whether the trainer can offer what we want/need. Sometimes emotional support/therapy is not the deal and we need to kind of suss that out. It's a good discipline too, for our horses sake to know what we want from training, be prepared for what the trainer is likely to offer and either enjoy and make the most of that or walk away. This is a lesson I have learnt the hard way.

I now find it hugely helpful to be able to work with a particular trainer where I really need to put any emotional stuff away and focus on the physical realities. Ironically, this works as the best emotional support for me

 

[southerncomfort]

This is just a question - but if you don’t fail, how will you get better?
I have trained with some of the world’s best and they are not doing it for free so I never worry. I want to ride well but if it goes wrong, great as that’s learning and with an expert to sort you out.

I'm coming round to that way of thinking LEC, and as I get older I'm finding I care much less about what people think of us.

I tend to initially feel very enthusiastic about a clinic, but then the brain comes up with ten reasons why it would be a bad idea.

In future I'll book it immediately so I don't have a chance to talk myself out of it!

 

[Rowreach]

Emotional labour in horse sport coaching is recognised as being more intense than other sports. Those lessons where as a coach you walk away utterly drained because you’ve spent the time managing your own and your client’s emotions more than just coaching the sport.

Therefore one of the reasons as a rider you (one) might not like a particular coach is that they aren’t managing you in the way you might want/expect/need.