Getting seriously fed up with being bitten now!!

Laika said:
When my mare was randomly off when being ridden, I did all the checks I possibly could to rule out any underlying issue.

With her being generally so sweet natured and working so well, it seemed completely out the blue for her to have a reaction like that and I needed (for both of our sakes) to rule out any underlying medical conditions. Luckily for me, everything came back all clear but I definitely felt better moving forward and going back to ridden work after ruling out all these sort of ailments. It was simply a young pony having a tantrum.

I think it'll definitely make you feel better getting everything ruled out, including ulcers. If it comes back all clear, like it did for me, at least then you can move forward and work on her behavioral issues. I did this with mine and although we're still working out some of the 'kinks' we've occurred, she's made fantastic progress.

I promise you'll feel tonnes happier after getting it all checked out. Fingers crossed for you and I hope it works out okay :).
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What did you do to handle the behavioral issues? And thank you, me too! :)
 
ester said:
Until this horse gets a comprehensive veterinary work up anything else may as well be a sticking plaster on a gaping wound. She's shouted as loud as she can for years, whatever started it may have been resolved by now but no one really knows and it would be very unfair to try and resolve by training if she hurts.
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Or she could just be a dominant spoilt brat, who hasn't been taught manners by humans or other horses, and hasn't learnt behavioural expectations. And she has found aggressive behaviour generates the results she wants.

If normally friendly horse changes behaviour - absolutely pain is first thought. But if a horse is happy in the field, but hasn't learnt manners and is aggressive to people and other horses and is consistent for years, it doesn't IMO have to be pain related.
 
I can't say whether it is or isn't pain - I would definitely want to rule this out first so really recommend you get her scoped!

All I can say is that I know a yard with a string of homebred horses all from the same line. They made a few attempts to bring them on and sell them but have more or less been sat in the field together for years. The oldest is the one they did a lot with who is although a dominant horse, pretty easy to handle and good to ride. There is one who is about 8 which they have done a moderate amount with and again, he is feisty and dominant but fairly manageable. The other 3 who they haven't done much with are pretty much feral. Very dominant, aggressive, dangerous. Won't think twice about turning around to kick you if they decide they don't want you in the field, bitey, will pin their ears, walk straight through you etc. The worst of all of them you can't even lunge - as soon as you ask to back up she will try to strike, pin ears etc. On the circle she won't hesistate to charge into the middle, rear, strike, kick etc.

I am not saying that it ISN'T pain, it very well could be and it is your (and the owners) duty to check those avenues first, but I won't be surprised if it just behavioural.

I also think that while it's good to ask things on these forums to get advice, nobody truly knows your horse and can see the issues first hand so you could end up taking general advice which is wrong for you and your horse. Is there anybody in your area who you could bring out? A licensed NH specialist/horse behaviourist or similar should be able to give you a good idea of why she is acting like this and could arm you with some specific techniques.
 
My story is a little different in that my pony was only having issues when ridden. She never had any problems in her stable. She was going really well under the saddle and then she bolted one day and it became a bit of a recurrence after that. With my pony being on the young side, I didn't want any underlying issues to 'stamp' on her and ruin her experience of riding, so I got her checked out in every respect. It was definitely worth it to rule out any medical problems.

When we began taking her back to the basic work she really tried to test me. She would face head on to me and even if I tried walking to her side to get her to move out onto a circle, she would keep moving head on to me. I started by walking around the school with her on a lunge line and walking away gradually. Walking back towards her side, getting her to stand, patting her and then walking back away until she learnt that it was okay to be away from my side. Now I only have to say 'Out' and she knows exactly what to do with no pressure being applied at all. I then began doing various lunging exercises and moved up from there. It's also important to break it up and do some inhand practice in the school. Basic walk-trot exercises in the school, which may come in handy for saddlers/vets/physio etc. I broke it up by going out for walks inhand and 'join up' with her to build trust and keep it varied.

Try to vary your exercise, occupy your horse mentally and physically, definitely get a little plan made up so you know what you need to do every day. My situation was quite different, so I wouldn't know if my advice would be sound for your situation but definitely get a vet to give you the all clear before proceeding with behavioral tactics.
 
wingedhorse said:
Or she could just be a dominant spoilt brat, who hasn't been taught manners by humans or other horses, and hasn't learnt behavioural expectations. And she has found aggressive behaviour generates the results she wants.

If normally friendly horse changes behaviour - absolutely pain is first thought. But if a horse is happy in the field, but hasn't learnt manners and is aggressive to people and other horses and is consistent for years, it doesn't IMO have to be pain related.
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Of course she could be, that is why I said no one knows because no one has ever got a vet to have a proper look at the horse. As such I think it would be totally unfair to the horse to come at it from a purely behavioural point of view until she has the all clear from anything physical especially given that it had a major accident some time ago.
I also wouldn't entirely trust an owner who seems to have limited interest in the animal saying 'she has always been like that' as not just another way of shrugging the issue off.

Get the work up then you can deal with it appropriately for the findings, medically or behaviourally.
 
ycbm said:
It sounds a lot better than her taking a chunk out of your face from where I'm sitting.
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Absolutely! You know, I don't really care whether the horse has a physical problem or not - horses must not attack you for ANY reason. If you are going to deal with a half-ton animal that is bigger, faster and infinitely tougher than you are it HAS to have manners. No biting, kicking, striking, barging, EVER, and if it takes using a whip to make that point then so be it.
 
ycbm said:
It sounds a lot better than her taking a chunk out of your face from where I'm sitting.
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I would imagine a lot of horses would just bite harder and faster if treated the way mentioned.
OP the horse is not yours, your getting hurt, the horse is trying to tell you loud and clear that for some reason she does not enjoy you being around, just walk away and find something you will enjoy loaning.
 
ycbm said:
It sounds a lot better than her taking a chunk out of your face from where I'm sitting.
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Well, when you put it like that... but they say not to hit because it makes them worse and then goes on to saying to hit them harder with a whip. So what's the difference between raising your voice and saying no with a slap on the shoulder or bum etc? Surely whacking them multiple times with a whip will just make them terrified of you? To be fair, I hope it wouldn't need to come to any of that as when she bit me on the head last week for leaning down to brush her legs, I growled at her and shouted 'don't you dare!' and she didn't even flinch after. Consistency is what I lack definitely though.
 
Ellietotz said:
Well, when you put it like that... but they say not to hit because it makes them worse and then goes on to saying to hit them harder with a whip. So what's the difference between raising your voice and saying no with a slap on the shoulder or bum etc? Surely whacking them multiple times with a whip will just make them terrified of you? To be fair, I hope it would need to come to any of that as when she bit me on the head last week for leaning down to brush her legs, I growled at her and shouted 'don't you dare!' and she didn't even flinch after. Consistency is what I lack definitely though.
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They go to bite, you hit them once, hard, and mean it. No horse I've ever had has tried this more than once. They know I mean it.

Like Cortez, I don't care, on this point, if she is in pain or not, there is never an acceptable reason to bite a human.


PS please ignore the advice that you have been given that a horse cannot be in pain if it is nasty to other horses as well as to people. It's just not true.
 
ycbm said:
They go to bite, you hit them once, hard, and mean it. No horse I've ever had has tried this more than once. They know I mean it.

Like Cortez, I don't care, on this point, if she is in pain or not, there is never an acceptable reason to bite a human.


PS please ignore the advice that you have been given that a horse cannot be in pain if it is nasty to other horses as well as to people. It's just not true.
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I guess I will have to toughen up then.

I also agree and thought that even if she was in pain, she should still have respect for others.

I've taken in all advice but certainly am not ruling anything out. I will get everything checked whilst also restarting her training. She's no longer the cute baby that gets her way.
 
Ellietotz said:
I guess I will have to toughen up then.

I also agree and thought that even if she was in pain, she should still have respect for others.

I've taken in all advice but certainly am not ruling anything out. I will get everything checked whilst also restarting her training. She's no longer the cute baby that gets her way.
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You may actually find it makes her a lot happier. Most horses like boundaries. Some can be very disturbed by being given too much responsibility for their own behaviour. If you can't get the muzzle in the instant she bites you, don't hit her head. The most effective place to smack her would probably be her shoulder, is where they 'hit' each other as a correction.

Try being a bit tougher most of the time, a LOT tougher if she threatens you, stay totally consistent, and see what happens. Stay safe!


I don't go round routinely whacking horses, but one that shows as little respect as this one, in pain or not in pain, I would carry a whip when handling, for the meantime.
 
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ycbm said:
You may actually find it makes her a lot happier. Most horses like boundaries. Some can be very disturbed by being given too much responsibility for their own behaviour. If you can't get the muzzle in the instant she bites you, don't hit her head. The most effective place to smack her would probably be her shoulder, is where they 'hit' each other as a correction.

Try being a bit tougher most of the time, a LOT tougher if she threatens you, stay totally consistent, and see what happens. Stay safe!


I don't go round routinely whacking horses, but one that shows as little respect as this one, in pain or not in pain, I would carry a whip when handling, for the meantime.
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Thank you. I did once happen to have a whip in my hand and she got annoyed with me again being in her space and stomped on my foot. I managed to slap her on the side a couple of times as pushing didn't work and she wouldn't get off. Pure disrespect.

I have just spoken to the vet who has known her for years and always dealt with the owners horses. She said she doesn't think it's ulcers, not sure why, but she's going to have a think about what tests she thinks would be best to start with. I've just told the owner, fingers crossed she helps contribute...
 
It's no good setting boundaries and telling her off before you rule out PAIN first because if she is hurting somewhere due to just about anything no amount to of hitting shouting and any other methods you read about will help.

If you really care about this horse just get a vet out tell them everything the horse does and get them to do the necessary checks until then I would leave her alone before she seriously does you some damage.

and reading your last paragraph above about the vet saying she doesn't think it's ulcers I think I would be getting another vet maybe someone who doesn't know the horse at all, it may not be ulcers but I bet her behaviour is pain related and sounds like it's been the same for a lot of years.
 
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Ellietotz said:
I feel like I don't even know where to begin, it would be interesting to watch someone handle her, get her out, brush, tack up etc and how they react when she tries biting. What would you normally do?
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First of all, I'd avoid putting myself unnecessarily in a position where I'm liable to get bitten (on evidence of past behaviour), as others have already advised.

I'd want to find out a bit about the situations and actions that provoke biting. That will guide my response. For example, if it's obvious the horse has learned that threatening to bite gets a desired reaction, I may simply not react. That's a less common scenario though. My standard reaction to mild to moderately aggressive biting is to present a object that they run into hard - usually a knee or elbow. Timing needs to be good, and you need to be aware of the horse the whole time. Usually you can see these moves to bite coming in plenty of time. The idea is the horse punishes itself, its discomfort coming as a direct result of its action. The instantaneous response makes for quick learning. I also prefer to keep emotion out of it completely and find the end result is more reliable that way. That's just my personal experience; I won't be critical of other people who do things differently with good results.
 
I haven't read the whole thread,,but first of all stop putting yourself in situations you can't control.
One you get her out, tie her up, short, so she can't get to you to bite! And Wear your hat at all times,
I'm sure someone else has said, you need to have something to hand to block her/Bite on
 
Pinkvboots said:
.....if she is hurting somewhere due to just about anything no amount to of hitting shouting and any other methods you read about will help.
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Not true. Teaching manners works; biting people is neither normal nor common. I have had downright dangerous stallions here who learned not to bite pretty darn quick, and never did it again.

The methods used were robust, and effective.
 
I have no doubt that you can teach a sore horse to suck it up and behave, I have certainly told my own to do so on some occasions when treating stuff/when he is uncomfortable. I am unsure how I feel about that ethically currently given the history this horse has.
 
Tonight, as I was leading her out from the field, she had her ears forward and every time I just so much as looked at her, she put her ears back, look away, ears go forward again and so on, this happens every time. What do I do then? I assume just carry on and ignore it? Then I tied her up short to give her a brush, sometimes enjoyed it, sometimes put her ears back at me, what do I do if she doesn't try to bite and just looks at me with her ears back? And because she didn't want to be out, she kept putting her ears back and moving her bum into me so then there was no room between her and the fence and I couldn't continue brushing her where I wanted to so I constantly had to push her back. She just isn't listening to anything I say or do. I raised my voice and she thought I was going to hit her, it's ridiculous.
 
Stop looking at her, she's finding it threatening.

Allow her to express opinions that don't hurt you, move you out of her space, or stop you doing what you are doing. Don't do unnecessary things (e.g. mane pulling, brushing where she isn't dirty) that she is trying to tell you she doesn't like.

If she moves over to squash you, poke her hard in the ribs well before she gets anywhere near doing that. Swing her head towards you at the same time, it will move her bum away. She should not be swinging into your space at all, don't let her.

MAKE her listen. Make it to uncomfortable for her not to listen. Squashing you into a fence is very aggressive and cannot be allowed any more than biting.
 
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I've found a hoofpick handy when a horse tries to squash you. Being squashed is not nice and a quick prod with a hoofpick has worked in the past for me.

Have you read the Black Stallions Filly? You need a hot potato up your sleeve!
 
OP, I am really concerned that you have bitten off more than you can chew (excuse the pun). With the best will in the world, as much as you are asking for advice and researching etc (which is good), it is clear that you have neither the skills, experience or instinct to deal with this horse - whether the root cause be physical, behavioural or both, this horses issues seem way out of your skill set, even the basics with your latest post, you should be able to handle - instead you had what sounds to be a 'normal' day with this mare:

Tonight, as I was leading her out from the field, she had her ears forward and every time I just so much as looked at her, she put her ears back, look away, ears go forward again and so on, this happens every time. What do I do then? I assume just carry on and ignore it? Then I tied her up short to give her a brush, sometimes enjoyed it, sometimes put her ears back at me, what do I do if she doesn't try to bite and just looks at me with her ears back? And because she didn't want to be out, she kept putting her ears back and moving her bum into me so then there was no room between her and the fence and I couldn't continue brushing her where I wanted to so I constantly had to push her back. She just isn't listening to anything I say or do. I raised my voice and she thought I was going to hit her, it's ridiculous.
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and had absolutely no idea where to start, how to react, what to do - instead, you came back to the forum and recounted the series of events. I am sorry, but this mare is in my opinion well outside of your capabilities and you are putting yourself in danger and not helping the horse by continuing.

Furthermore, just because a vet has known a horse all its life - the vet is in absolutely no position to declare over the phone without examining the horse that 'she doesn't think its ulcers' until the vet sees this horse and does a full and thorough work up - she has no idea what could or not be the cause.
 
OP I have read through the whole thread and have formed a view on what causes this behaviour - but quite honestly I would walk away from the mare ASAP, life is too short to put up with a horse as nasty as that, whatever the cause! Riding is supposed to be a relaxing leisure interest :)
 
When you set her boundaries and tell her to move over / not bite etc etc are you just doing the actions and saying "move over" or are you really being 'the boss'.
You need to puff yourself up and really project "I'm the boss" to her. You need to really MEAN what you say. Don't be wishy washy. Make a request an expect the response from her.

But importantly, don't discipline her in anger. Be firm, be fair, be clear. You are educating her.
 
Ellietotz said:
Tonight, as I was leading her out from the field, she had her ears forward and every time I just so much as looked at her, she put her ears back, look away, ears go forward again and so on, this happens every time. What do I do then? I assume just carry on and ignore it? Then I tied her up short to give her a brush, sometimes enjoyed it, sometimes put her ears back at me, what do I do if she doesn't try to bite and just looks at me with her ears back? And because she didn't want to be out, she kept putting her ears back and moving her bum into me so then there was no room between her and the fence and I couldn't continue brushing her where I wanted to so I constantly had to push her back. She just isn't listening to anything I say or do. I raised my voice and she thought I was going to hit her, it's ridiculous.
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I see a lot of rude horses and they have all sorts of pain excuses made (or, separation anxiety seems to be a fave!), but actually a horse can be in mild pain and still not kick/bite/trample you. I might feel stand-offish or grumpy when I'm sick but that doesn't make it acceptable to punch someone! I agree that pain is the first thing to look at, but basic manners should be in place for everyone's safety, not least the poor vet!!

You need to take care of yourself. No kisses on the nose ever, when you are handling her she needs to be tied up at all times, and tied up short. Wear a hat and just try not to put yourself in a situation where she can bite. I don't think getting in a fight with her is the way forward, I think avoiding situations that would need such punishment is the way forward. I wouldn't be grooming her loose in the field. My horse had ulcers and I respected that and didn't try to pull his rugs straight (they hate that!) or really groom him or handle unnecessarily until he had scoped clear.

It does sound very ulcer-y, but I know a couple of real grumps who didn't have ulcers. Whether they had other health issues or not I don't know. You could do a Gastrogard trial if the scope is not an option, I would say I noticed a difference within a week. Ovaries is another thought, and have you tried her on Regumate? But again, I would be reluctant to be paying for such expensive treatments for a horse that wasn't actually mine - you need to have a talk with the owners. You could do a bute trial but bute can aggravate ulcers. I'm assuming she is sound, how does she go under saddle? Is she nappy/backwards? How are her canter transitions?

You sound like you are doing your best!! Tbh though if I was in your shoes I would find another horse to loan. I think she will be a lot of work, it may be medical and expensive, she may never change, and really it's the owner's responsibility.
 
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Thank you everyone. :( I really do want to try. Either that or I just carry on as I am, enjoying her when we are out on a hack and just staying clear of her mouth and ignoring it. I just wanted to bond with her and I just feel like she hates me. When I put her back tonight, she was so affectionate and kept following me around. It's always on her terms. Every other time I just feel like I'm using her. I want her to be happy.
 
I'm veering towards the spoilt baby side of things, but you MUST rule out pain, not just a guess at no ulcers, proof of no ulcers & then move on. Her manners are appalling & even I would have stood up to her by now. Don't put your face in the way of her mouth, nor any other part of you, keep her tied short or even better cross tied when you work with her & a strong, singular reprimand when she is bargy.
 
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