Getting seriously fed up with being bitten now!!

EllieT, I've also got a horse who can bite.

I have been with horses nearly 50 years and in a lifetime of handling, riding and running a yard it's the first time I've really been bitten, beyond a nip.

I merely leant on his door to check he had enough hay. I saw no warning at all and it was over in a second. This damage was done through thick winter gloves.

I know I've posted this photo before but I hope everyone can forgive me for posting it again because I really, really hope it will make you see what they can do. My hand has healed pretty well thanks to a very good surgeon at the John Radcliffe, but I still have a line of scar tissue and a missing bit where the muscle should be.

My horse also can't socialise with other horses and is an 'in your face' animal, only wanting things to happen on his terms. When you're on his back, he loves hacking out, ears forward. But it's almost like he has to express every feeling as it occurs, heart on sleeve. I have a strong suspicion that he was hand-raised as his ability to speak 'horse' is zero.

I have taken advice from a HHO member on this thread and I now have a much better relationship with him. He makes an aggressive move towards me, he's reprimanded. But I will never trust him not to revert. It's like he just can't help himself ...

PLEASE don't allow this to happen to your face. I would (personally) say hand the horse back. There are many fun horses out there to enjoy. I do hope you now take the plunge to go out and find one of them. Horses are meant to be a fun hobby :)

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I'm like you - people telling me I can't do something only makes me more determined to prove them wrong, but maybe you can learn from my mistakes :p

Your safety is the most important thing, there are other easier horses out there, I really suggest you google 'horse bite'. Or don't, because it's gory, but you really need to understand that a bite can do serious damage, you could literally loose a finger. There's an awful pic where a bite from a horse has snapped someone's wrist.

You need to forget the bond thing. Sometimes a working partnership has to be enough. A 'bond' takes years, not months to develop. Horses like clear, consistent boundaries. She needs to respect you before she will like you! Do you have an instructor who will come and show you how to handle her?
 
Mrs B said:
EllieT, I've also got a horse who can bite.

I have been with horses nearly 50 years and in a lifetime of handling, riding and running a yard it's the first time I've really been bitten, beyond a nip.

I merely leant on his door to check he had enough hay. I saw no warning at all and it was over in a second. This damage was done through thick winter gloves.

I know I've posted this photo before but I hope everyone can forgive me for posting it again because I really, really hope it will make you see what they can do. My hand has healed pretty well thanks to a very good surgeon at the John Radcliffe, but I still have a line of scar tissue and a missing bit where the muscle should be.

My horse also can't socialise with other horses and is an 'in your face' animal, only wanting things to happen on his terms. When you're on his back, he loves hacking out, ears forward. But it's almost like he has to express every feeling as it occurs, heart on sleeve. I have a strong suspicion that he was hand-raised as his ability to speak 'horse' is zero.

I have taken advice from a HHO member on this thread and I now have a much better relationship with him. He makes an aggressive move towards me, he's reprimanded. But I will never trust him not to revert. It's like he just can't help himself ...

PLEASE don't allow this to happen to your face. I would (personally) say hand the horse back. There are many fun horses out there to enjoy. I do hope you now take the plunge to go out and find one of them. Horses are meant to be a fun hobby :)

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Ouch. Be careful EllieT
 
Pigeon said:
I see a lot of rude horses and they have all sorts of pain excuses made (or, separation anxiety seems to be a fave!), but actually a horse can be in mild pain and still not kick/bite/trample you. I might feel stand-offish or grumpy when I'm sick but that doesn't make it acceptable to punch someone! I agree that pain is the first thing to look at, but basic manners should be in place for everyone's safety, not least the poor vet!!

You need to take care of yourself. No kisses on the nose ever, when you are handling her she needs to be tied up at all times, and tied up short. Wear a hat and just try not to put yourself in a situation where she can bite. I don't think getting in a fight with her is the way forward, I think avoiding situations that would need such punishment is the way forward. I wouldn't be grooming her loose in the field. My horse had ulcers and I respected that and didn't try to pull his rugs straight (they hate that!) or really groom him or handle unnecessarily until he had scoped clear.

It does sound very ulcer-y, but I know a couple of real grumps who didn't have ulcers. Whether they had other health issues or not I don't know. You could do a Gastrogard trial if the scope is not an option, I would say I noticed a difference within a week. Ovaries is another thought, and have you tried her on Regumate? But again, I would be reluctant to be paying for such expensive treatments for a horse that wasn't actually mine - you need to have a talk with the owners. You could do a bute trial but bute can aggravate ulcers. I'm assuming she is sound, how does she go under saddle? Is she nappy/backwards? How are her canter transitions?

You sound like you are doing your best!! Tbh though if I was in your shoes I would find another horse to loan. I think she will be a lot of work, it may be medical and expensive, she may never change, and really it's the owner's responsibility.
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I have spoken to the vet and she is going to call me back tomorrow after having a think about what is best to do going forward. I told the owner of the prices of everything we might need to test for and she said not to bother as she is just a bully, there's nothing wrong with her. Still, I'm going to make my own decision on that. She was on bute recently from cutting her leg and it getting infected from the mud, it was terrible and I had to fight her to treat it, it took hours. Even then, the bute didn't change her behaviour, she had two sedatives when the vet cleaned the wound and even though she was out of it, she did everything she could to put her ears back and give me a face when I stroked her neck. She is sound, absolutely fine under the saddle, she thoroughly enjoys going on a hack and wanting to gallop everywhere. She's also very much on her terms when ridden though as well but not as bad as I don't let her then, if I want to trot or not gallop off, I will. Just wish I was the same on foot!
 
Assuming she's not in pain and it is just behavioural (which is a big assumption given her demeanour and history), I still don't think she's the horse for you. She needs minimalist, business-like handling, not someone fussing with her and trying to make her love them. You on the other hand, want a horse you can love and fuss over.

Maybe you can find a horse more suitable for you?
 
Mrs B said:
EllieT, I've also got a horse who can bite.

I have been with horses nearly 50 years and in a lifetime of handling, riding and running a yard it's the first time I've really been bitten, beyond a nip.

I merely leant on his door to check he had enough hay. I saw no warning at all and it was over in a second. This damage was done through thick winter gloves.

I know I've posted this photo before but I hope everyone can forgive me for posting it again because I really, really hope it will make you see what they can do. My hand has healed pretty well thanks to a very good surgeon at the John Radcliffe, but I still have a line of scar tissue and a missing bit where the muscle should be.

My horse also can't socialise with other horses and is an 'in your face' animal, only wanting things to happen on his terms. When you're on his back, he loves hacking out, ears forward. But it's almost like he has to express every feeling as it occurs, heart on sleeve. I have a strong suspicion that he was hand-raised as his ability to speak 'horse' is zero.

I have taken advice from a HHO member on this thread and I now have a much better relationship with him. He makes an aggressive move towards me, he's reprimanded. But I will never trust him not to revert. It's like he just can't help himself ...

PLEASE don't allow this to happen to your face. I would (personally) say hand the horse back. There are many fun horses out there to enjoy. I do hope you now take the plunge to go out and find one of them. Horses are meant to be a fun hobby :)

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Oh wow.... that looks extremely painful. She's never bit anyone like that, it's usually just a warning but of course, if she thinks she is one of us, there's nothing to say she won't. She sounds very much like yours, having to show feelings to everything and she definitely does. What did you do and how long did it take for him to gain respect?
 
Pigeon said:
I'm like you - people telling me I can't do something only makes me more determined to prove them wrong, but maybe you can learn from my mistakes :p

Your safety is the most important thing, there are other easier horses out there, I really suggest you google 'horse bite'. Or don't, because it's gory, but you really need to understand that a bite can do serious damage, you could literally loose a finger. There's an awful pic where a bite from a horse has snapped someone's wrist.

You need to forget the bond thing. Sometimes a working partnership has to be enough. A 'bond' takes years, not months to develop. Horses like clear, consistent boundaries. She needs to respect you before she will like you! Do you have an instructor who will come and show you how to handle her?
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I'll pass on googling it I think! I had an instructor out for the first time the other week, it went very well and she taught me how to push through her strops when ridden if she didn't want to do something. I will have to get her to teach me how to handle her properly as well. It's easy to tie her up, brush, tack up and just ignore the faces but when it comes to actually training her not to do that, I am useless.
 
Cortez said:
Not true. Teaching manners works; biting people is neither normal nor common. I have had downright dangerous stallions here who learned not to bite pretty darn quick, and never did it again.

The methods used were robust, and effective.
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I know they can work but if you suspect a horse is experiencing pain and the behaviour is probably due to pain would it not make sense to try and eliminate the cause first
 
DabDab said:
Assuming she's not in pain and it is just behavioural (which is a big assumption given her demeanour and history), I still don't think she's the horse for you. She needs minimalist, business-like handling, not someone fussing with her and trying to make her love them. You on the other hand, want a horse you can love and fuss over.

Maybe you can find a horse more suitable for you?
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I want to learn to be able to handle her properly though, I'm not one to give up so quickly. It's only been six months afterall. It makes me miss my boy even more though :( I never struggled with him. At first I did because again, I was weak and put no rules in place so he knew he could run back to the field with his bridle half on. I stopped letting him misbehave and he never did it again. It only took the one time and he learnt.
 
Okay that's a good start! It's so helpful to have a pro involved. Just tell your instructor what she does, and ask her to watch you get her in from the field, get her ready and turn her back out. Then ask them what you need to do differently. Does she know that you've been bitten a couple of times?

When she strops under saddle, what are the usual circumstances and behavior?

It may be worth having instructor talk to the owners on your behalf.
 
Ellietotz said:
I'll pass on googling it I think! I had an instructor out for the first time the other week, it went very well and she taught me how to push through her strops when ridden if she didn't want to do something. I will have to get her to teach me how to handle her properly as well. It's easy to tie her up, brush, tack up and just ignore the faces but when it comes to actually training her not to do that, I am useless.
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you are really contradicting yourself you said in a post before this one that she loves being ridden and is no problem, yet you say here that she has strops when ridden and your getting help for it, she sounds like one very unhappy horse it seems she hates every aspect of everyday life this screams of discomfort and pain to me, try and think and listen to her I think she is giving you enough to go on and seems to be getting worse.

an example is one of my horses years ago started to get really sluggish when ridden he just didn't want to move, I then remember walking toward him once with the saddle and he laid his ears flat back and looked very unhappy, this basically told me he disliked the saddle, had it checked and after finding a saddle fitter that knew whatever they were doing, turns out the saddle was far to narrow and causing a lot of pain when ridden.
 
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Ellietotz said:
What did you do and how long did it take for him to gain respect?
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It was very painful, after the shock wore off!

Honestly? It's an ongoing thing to make him remember but if I go into his box, he has to back up.

If I put down his feed, he can only approach when I say so. And unwanted behaviour gets a slap or a growl and a bite gets a full on belt. Immediately.

When I'm grooming and his instinct is to groom me back, I have a knotted up lead rope attached to the bars of his box for him to chew on instead of me. And he really NEEDS that. He just can't adjust his responses appropriately.

I love him and he's a grand horse but I will never trust him.

Tine frame? About 48 hours.
 
Pigeon said:
Okay that's a good start! It's so helpful to have a pro involved. Just tell your instructor what she does, and ask her to watch you get her in from the field, get her ready and turn her back out. Then ask them what you need to do differently. Does she know that you've been bitten a couple of times?

When she strops under saddle, what are the usual circumstances and behavior?

It may be worth having instructor talk to the owners on your behalf.
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Yes she saw her trying to bite me. She was checking her over, checking the saddle, took it off and put it back on, did the girth up etc, she didn't move at all. Then I do it and she's horrible, making faces etc. We didn't really cover that topic as we didn't have a lot of time but I will ask for some advice. Usual circumstances are normally just when being asked to do something if she doesn't want to at the time, not just going forwards but slowing down too. We could be trotting and she wants to go into a canter, I tell her no and bring her back to a trot and she strops, sometimes gets so grumpy she will stop all together or lift her bum as if to buck. I could ask her to walk and if she doesn't want to, same happens again. If I just sit there and wait for her to walk on herself, no problem at all! On her terms as usual.
 
My pony bit me once on the wrist while being led in. I had another horse in my other hand, so I am not ashamed to say he got a swift kick to his shoulder. He's not done it since.
 
Ellietotz as someone else has said already, forget the bond thing and with your instructor concentrate on building a respectful working relationship. Some horses just don't bond with people. I've owned 9 horses over 30 years and of them, probably two have had a fairytale type bond with me. One is the big man I've had since a foal so it's not that surprising. However my two best under saddle couldn't really have given a stuff unless I was bringing food. They were polite, easy to do and fantastic ridden, but did they follow me round the field and enjoy cuddles? No. Didn't make me care any less about them. If you want a guaranteed bond and lots of hands-on, get a dog.
 
What a frustrating thread to read :(

OP it really doesn't sound like you can actually *enjoy* spending time with this horse. The whole thing seems like it is a tense and continuous barrage of disagreements, anxiety and uncertainty. This will surely be unpleasant for both of you.

It sounds like you would enjoy a horse to spend time with, grooming and pampering etc and this horse really doesn't want that! Just like some people don't get on with each other and won't be friends the same is true of horses. It does seem there are some issues with this mare that need sorting out but *you* don't have to sort this out and without meaning to sound rude it sounds like it might need someone more experienced than you to sort it out. Please don't let stubborness or pride keep you in this arrangement until you get hurt or you forget that this is supposed to be a hobby you enjoy!
 
Pinkvboots said:
you are really contradicting yourself you said in a post before this one that she loves being ridden and is no problem, yet you say here that she has strops when ridden and your getting help for it, she sounds like one very unhappy horse it seems she hates every aspect of everyday life this screams of discomfort and pain to me, try and think and listen to her I think she is giving you enough to go on and seems to be getting worse.

an example is one of my horses years ago started to get really sluggish when ridden he just didn't want to move, I then remember walking toward him once with the saddle and he laid his ears flat back and looked very unhappy, this basically told me he disliked the saddle, had it checked and after finding a saddle fitter that knew whatever they were doing, turns out the saddle was far to narrow and causing a lot of pain when ridden.
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Sorry, should have added, this ridden behaviour is only when in the school. When out hacking, she loves it and we both have fun.
 
Mrs B said:
It was very painful, after the shock wore off!

Honestly? It's an ongoing thing to make him remember but if I go into his box, he has to back up.

If I put down his feed, he can only approach when I say so. And unwanted behaviour gets a slap or a growl and a bite gets a full on belt. Immediately.

When I'm grooming and his instinct is to groom me back, I have a knotted up lead rope attached to the bars of his box for him to chew on instead of me. And he really NEEDS that. He just can't adjust his responses appropriately.

I love him and he's a grand horse but I will never trust him.

Tine frame? About 48 hours.
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Oh wow, that's quick. Somehow I don't think it'll be that easy for me! Although today when I told her off for trying to get me, she was chewing her lead rope instead, is there actually a reason for that then?
 
Ellietotz said:
Sorry, should have added, this ridden behaviour is only when in the school. When out hacking, she loves it and we both have fun.
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If you are adamant about keeping going with this - may I make a suggestion. First, get a full work up from the vet, if you can't afford that or the owners won't pay - walk away. Unless you can rule out pain - and Im not saying it is pain, and certainly not wholly, you can't possibly keep riding this horse - or at least I would not be able to, the niggle in my mind of 'maybe' would be too much.

Second, once pain is either ruled out or identified and treated. Don't tackle too much at once, if this mare hates the school but loves her hacks - just hack her and work on her attitude - keep her in her 'happy place' until her other behavior is more manageable and you have more respect from her and therefore more trust and a better bond.

Do not try and do it all at once with this horse - she will be overwhelmed. Ignore the schooling for now - no need to pick that fight and make her do something that clearly ticks her off. You have plenty of other behaviour to sort first. Get the all clear from the vet then pick your battles wisely and keep her tasks manageable - do not do the unnecessary
 
Righto, I'm all caught up. Stupid international timezones.

Before I get on with it, I just want to clarify a couple of things.

fburton said:
I have no opinion about whether pain is involved or not in this case, but in general why would pain not influence behaviour towards both people and other horses? (Or put another way, why would pain provoke aggression towards one and not the other?) I'd have thought grumpiness exacerbated by pain or discomfort is likely to affect any interactions a horse has.
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Good question/observation. Broadly, that is right. And as we have covered well, we can't 100% rule out pain or hormones with this horse until there are conclusive results. But I'm not talking broadly here, I'm looking closely at solid examples of this horse's history and behaviour (such as we have) and considering the likelihood of pain over behaviour. If this horse's behaviour towards other horses was based in pain, I would expect something much more like what Scats described with their horse - a change in normal behaviour, being withdrawn (a big hint) and warning other horses to keep their distance. Clearly wanting to be alone. OP's horse is not withdrawn - quite the opposite - has not deviated from her normal behaviour at all, and does not merely give warning signs to other horses but
Ellietotz said:
She doesn't warn them away, she will actually chase them with her mouth open until she gets them.
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This isn't a bit of pain grumpiness, this is 100% textbook, classic herd behaviour. This is exactly what happens when a new horse joins a herd - The newbie is chased (and chased and bitten and kicked and chased) out of the herd and has to wait to be invited back in. It happens, but only when the herd is good and ready. And as we have seen with this mare, nothing happens until she is good and ready. I get the very strong impression from her particular behaviour she does not want to be alone - she wants to be in charge.

fburton said:
You are dealing with intangibles like how horses view people. Some advocates of the second approach, particularly those in the "Natural Horsemanship" camp will advise you to become more like a horse and do things to get your horse to view you as one.
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Sorry fburton, I promise I'm not trying to single you out! But I couldn't let that one pass. NH isn't about getting your horse to view you as a horse - they must view you as a human and therefore the one always in charge, whoever the human may be. OP's mare viewing her as a horse IS a big part of the problem. It's simply supposed to facilitate a way of communicating in a way the horse understands so that you don't resort to tactics of extreme force, intimidation and fear in your training. My view of whether it's successful or not depends on whether it's handled sensitively and sensibly, and properly tempered with other, more conventional methods. IMHO, the Roberts and Parellis of the world have dressed up nuggets of good, old fashioned horsemanship in theatricality and illusion so they can look like magicians and build nice little empires built on expensive videos and stupid bloody sticks you buy for 50 quid. There's truth in there, but my god you have to sift through some crap to get to it!

But we digress. That's a whole other conversation. (And if anyone wants to have it, please start another thread so we can stay on topic here.)

OP. Many people on this thread have advised you to walk away from this horse. I think this is something you should seriously consider. It would seem the owners have buggered her up from the get-go and they know it. It's resulted in deeply set behavioural problems that would challenge a pro. IIRC, the folks who took her on just before you were pros or pro/am and they handed her back quick smart. Wisely. Life's too short, etc. Plus, she isn't the horse you dreamed of having. You wanted a lovely affectionate horse just like your old boy. This mare is just... not that. I get that it's not in your nature to be a quitter and you want to learn, but you really should think about this very seriously, especially given that she's not actually your horse.

However. While you consider this course of action, you've got a problem to deal with. Your safety is at risk. And you could certainly do with upping your handling skills anyway. So let's look at that.

I'm going to talk about just you for now. Partly because you're half of this equation and partly because I have to go and play with horses in a minute and am running a bit short on time. (:o Sorry. I'll write more on horse stuff later.)

Girl, you gots to change your mindset! Solving this aaaaall begins with you. The way of thinking you need to develop is not second nature to you as it is with many of us here, so you are going to have to start making conscious choices about your behaviour, and you will need to be as firm, fair and consistent with yourself as you're going to be with the horse.

Ellietotz said:
Perhaps I need the mind set of raising a child almost, being constructive, teaching and setting boundaries etc.
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NO. YOU NEED THE MINDSET OF RAISING A BLOODY HORSE!! :D Setting boundaries, yes, definitely. As fburton said, this is something you can do right now. Let's leave off talking about constructive teaching for a bit. We'll get back to that.

Let's start by busting a few of your fantasies. You said you wanted to start again and be tough with her. So do it.

* Forget about bonding. Forget about being friends and kissies being nicey nicey. This happens a long, long way down the line if it ever happens at all. Just stop it. Love and devotion? Pah! As someone else said, if you want all that get a dog. You're handling a huge, dangerous, unpredictable animal. Act like it.

* Stop being polite to her like you would be to a person. She doesn't need the bubble wrap. Bloody horse, etc.

* Stop giving her powers of human reason. Stop describing her as sometimes "loving". She's a herd animal who lives outside and rolls in poo. Does she ever come up to you and, say, rub her head on you? This isn't love. She's treating you with the same respect she has for a fence post. This stops now. This is a boundary.

* Stop thinking like this:

Ellietotz said:
Ouch... It basically says every time the horse tries to bite you or kick, move it away by whacking it with a whip and hard so he can feel that it hurts!! That sounds awful!
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Sweet baby jesus. Just because you give a horse a short, sharp shock with a whip from time to time, it doesn't mean you're like that monstrous Welsh girl that beat up that little pony. You ARE going to have to do this occasionally. Think of it this way - any sort of "pain" you would inflict is nothing compared to what another horse would do to her in a herd situation, and she'd handle that just fine. More whip talk later.

My time's up, so some final quick do's and don'ts about you (not horse) for now:

DO "puff yourself up" like someone else here mentioned. Go back and read that post again. If you're not feeling it, fake it 'till you make it. Choose to go in acting like a boss with strong body language. Watch that you maintain it. Be consistent.

DO watch what the owner does with her. You say the horse behaves with her? Watch what she does and learn from it.

DON'T beat yourself up if you don't get it right the first time. Learn, process, move on, get it right next time. If you need a bit of time to feel like crap, wait until you're away from the horse or she'll read it. You are the boss lady around her now. Always.

More later. Have at it.
 
Pinkvboots said:
most horses prefer hacking to going in the school it's more interesting and it's usually easier than schooling,
what does she do in the school?
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What do you mean, her behaviour or the exercise? Most of the time we argue because she wants to jog round instead of walk and then gets stressy when I actually make her trot even though she is doing it already but once we have pushed through it, she enjoys whizzing around over a few jumps, but again, on her terms, when I try to steady her, she just throws her head around and full on strops out. Hence why I have decided to get an instructor because I don't always want to have to hack out! The instructor taught me how to keep her going forwards calmly when she tries to stop and eventually, she was really relaxed and working in an outline. Only our first lesson though but will continue for sure.
 
Queenbee said:
If you are adamant about keeping going with this - may I make a suggestion. First, get a full work up from the vet, if you can't afford that or the owners won't pay - walk away. Unless you can rule out pain - and Im not saying it is pain, and certainly not wholly, you can't possibly keep riding this horse - or at least I would not be able to, the niggle in my mind of 'maybe' would be too much.

Second, once pain is either ruled out or identified and treated. Don't tackle too much at once, if this mare hates the school but loves her hacks - just hack her and work on her attitude - keep her in her 'happy place' until her other behavior is more manageable and you have more respect from her and therefore more trust and a better bond.

Do not try and do it all at once with this horse - she will be overwhelmed. Ignore the schooling for now - no need to pick that fight and make her do something that clearly ticks her off. You have plenty of other behaviour to sort first. Get the all clear from the vet then pick your battles wisely and keep her tasks manageable - do not do the unnecessary
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I am still going to get her checked, definitely and that's a good idea, I will just hack her for now and do what makes her happy so she doesn't associate me with doing something she hates. She's lovely to me after a hack, loves having a sleep while I brush her off but before, she isn't happy of course because she doesn't know if she's going in the school or going out. Good advice though, I will aim to keep her in her 'happy place' too. Thank you.
 
Ellie I remember when you posted about how distraught you were when this horse was going to be going elsewhere and how much you loved her etc.

I think it is important to consider if you still feel the same 6 months down the line and if so whether that is a) clouding your judgement b) in some way making you keen that the horse loves you back/you have a bond?

Also I know you say you won't give up but I think you need to consider that if you are to make this work you need to be super consistent, is this going to be hampered by the owner/does she handle her to?

We own a mare that was essentially home bred and babied something ridiculous. She has never bitten but had little concept of personal space and would rear when led, she didn't keep it up long with a little direction. Sometimes she pushes things too far, she had incrementally started to consider kicking when belly brushing and mum had missed it until I pointed out it wouldn't be long before she got hurt and that she didn't used to behave like that. I put a hat on and told her once, sorted. Fwiw she is not dominant by nature but has sometimes found herself there then doesn't have a clue what she should be doing!
 
I wasn't going to comment on this thread as I don't have half the experience of some people giving advice here. And I had to learn to set boundaries and stuff when I got my horse 18 months ago..

However, recently I heard about a very serious incident someone I know had with a horse which could have been very nasty (non-riding incident). And it just reminded me of how dangerous these animals are.

I just want to ask you to please BE CAREFUL. I've read through this whole thread and it doesn't sound like you have the experience to deal with this mare.. I'm sorry. Whether it's pain or behavioural she has absolutely no respect for you and it's dangerous.

I agree with a lot of the posters on here. I would seriously consider walking away, it's not 'giving up' if you can't handle the horse. It's being sensible. It sounds like you want a cuddly horse you can mess around with and stroke and pat and love. But this mare shows all signs that she really does not like any of these things. So you're never going to get your cuddly horse with her.

If you really are persistent and want to stay... she needs to be checked over by a vet, which should be coming out of the owners pocket not yours. Once she's confirmed as pain-free, IMHO you need to get an instructor out or a behavourist to show you how to work with this horse. It sounds like she needs very firm handling and very strict boundaries... it's all well and good coming and posting on the forum but I think you need someone there to see what she does and show you exactly how to react.. For example when she swings her bum and you, you MAKE her swing it back - a horse is not allowed to squash you and if you have to whack her to make her do it do it!! She spends 23 hours of her day in a field doing as she pleases, the hour or so she's with you she can do as she's told.

If you do get her sorted, it's more than likely, like I said, you're not going to be able to cuddle her or anything. You'll probably always need to be firm and strict, which it doesn't sound like you really want to be.

I'm sorry if that sounds harsh :( Please don't get hurt trying to deal with this horse. I know you've spent 6 months trying with her and you enjoy hacking her and feel attached but there are SO many other horse out there you can enjoying hacking on who will respect you and be well mannered. If the owners can't see that what she's doing is dangerous and aren't willing to pay for vets or help you with this I would look for another horse to enjoy.
 
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The best advice on this thread is to walk away. This mare sounds very tricky, and would challenge an experienced handler. The OP does not have the right mindset, skills or timing to deal with her, but could offer a nicer horse a good and loving home.

There was a lovely uber experienced lady round here, who could get the best out of any horse. She had an evil witch of a mare, who she was convinced that she could 'bring round'. She laughed at her farrier, who told her to shoot it, and joked that he was getting old and past it. Not long after, she was found with the mare in the field or stable (can't remember which) with catastrophic head injuries. She lived on for a good long while, but never regained consciousness.

OP, please just walk away, and find something much more suitable.
 
There is some excellent advice on this thread which I won't repeat however, their is another aspect that I think OP needs to take on board.

Personally I prefer a mare although some can trickier than others. Not all mares will be a huge challenge but I've found with every mare I've ever owned that I've had to work hard to forge a partnership with them. By that I don't mean showering them with kisses and cuddles every day....we might enjoy that, but it isn't what a horse needs particularly and some downright hate it.

With this mare it sounds like OP is absolutely DESPERATE to make the horse love her. Well...I don't believe that a horse can love a human. At the very best we can have a partnership and companionship with them and if you get that with a mare then you are lucky because once you have a mare on your side they will walk through fire for you. I don't believe that this horse likes, wants, needs or tolerates any kind of human idea of affection. She doesn't want that kind of partnership with a human, what she wants is consistent handling and a life where the rules are clear and everything is black and white. Really it's not that different to humans. Some of us are very clingy and need to be hugged and reassured by our fellow humans, while some of us are a bit stand-offish and prefer to be left alone. And sometimes we meet someone that we just don't get along with and no matter how hard we try to make friends, it doesn't work because the personalities are too different.

OP - I sense a real clash of personalities between you and this mare. You want to shower her with affection which she doesn't appreciate and she wants firm, consistent handling which you are unable to give her right now. You want to be her best mate while frankly she doesn't seem to enjoy your company. Sorry if that sounds harsh...it isn't necessarily that either of you is doing anything 'wrong' just that you don't get on, you clash and you want different things.

Putting this together with this mares history, I personally think you should walk away with pride intact before things go catastrophically wrong. But if you do decide to persevere, you HAVE to get some proper diagnostic tests done by your vet to rule out any pain or medical problem that could be affecting her behaviour. Because riding a horse who may be in pain is unethical and indefensible.

And then you need to get out a professional who understands horse behaviour and can show you how to handle this mare consistently before you get hurt.
 
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