Golden button challenge

Sorry to be nosey but who is your OH if you don't mind me asking?
Oops thought I had quoted Elliefiz but seems to have vanished!! Anyway that's who my particularly intrusive question was aimed at.
 
marmalade76 said:
I don't need a patronising lecture, thank you, I was merely stating that I UNDERTOOD PS's POV and that there are many out there who would agree with her.
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Somebody has made a point, I did not agree with that point so I responded with what I considered measured perspective. I am a natural waffler/rambler, patronising lecturer I am not, your welcome...and there are many who don't agree with her.
 
Just to add..having watched some footage of it the fences look like the bigger end of a good jumping days hunting, the riders all appear perfectly capable and it doesn't look like a mad melee of horses..so all in all not the sensationalised nightmare/chaos as some have suggested. IMO.

in all honesty, if I had the opportunity i.e. capable horse, sufficient training and prep etc. I'd give it go.
 
LittleRoodolphRider said:
Just to add..having watched some footage of it the fences look like the bigger end of a good jumping days hunting, the riders all appear perfectly capable and it doesn't look like a mad melee of horses..so all in all not the sensationalised nightmare/chaos as some have suggested. IMO.

in all honesty, if I had the opportunity i.e. capable horse, sufficient training and prep etc. I'd give it go.
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As would I.
 
marmalade76 said:
I'm not disagreeing with you! Re 'love', the comment about food was a joke, as indicated by the added smilie.
And the self preservation, you must have a dim horse 'cause there have been several occasions he various horses of mine have got their feet through the wire fencing (they are on a farm) and each one has waited, attached to the fence, to be rescued, not pulled themselves free and damaged themselves in the process

Yes, hoses will run on on adrenaline, but I really don't think any of my horses have felt they were running for their lives every time I've been hunting, team chasing or having a gallop over the hill.
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I don't think my horse is any less intelligent than anyone else's. And I would hopefully spot something seeing as I am studying an animal behaviour course part time. But lucky you having such amazingly superior horses that appear to be rare examples of a huge evolvement in equine intelligence. ;) I can think of a number of people who would love to study them!

And as for horses not hunting on adrenaline, I would wager 90% of horses hunt on adrenaline, they will run to keep up with a herd of horses and that's a natural instinct. I have hunted for my entire life and I have lost count of the number of times I have seen unfit horses pushing themselves to keep up with the pack because they are anxious about being left behind. Usually the same horses who jog all the way back to the boxes when the hunt ends because they are still anxious about being on their own. Of course good basic training and handling addresses this anxiety and makes for a more balanced and calmer horse but the natural instinct is always there and that instinct at times means horses get injured or worse.

As for my OH, he would not be pleased to have his name mentioned on H&H; as a typical Irishman he is very private!
 
elliefiz said:
I don't think my horse is any less intelligent than anyone else's. And I would hopefully spot something seeing as I am studying an animal behaviour course part time. But lucky you having such amazingly superior horses that appear to be rare examples of a huge evolvement in equine intelligence. ;) I can think of a number of people who would love to study them!

And as for horses not hunting on adrenaline, I would wager 90% of horses hunt on adrenaline, they will run to keep up with a herd of horses and that's a natural instinct. I have hunted for my entire life and I have lost count of the number of times I have seen unfit horses pushing themselves to keep up with the pack because they are anxious about being left behind. Usually the same horses who jog all the way back to the boxes when the hunt ends because they are still anxious about being on their own. Of course good basic training and handling addresses this anxiety and makes for a more balanced and calmer horse but the natural instinct is always there and that instinct at times means horses get injured or worse.

As for my OH, he would not be pleased to have his name mentioned on H&H; as a typical Irishman he is very private!
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I am just slightly staggered that with the way you think that you now cannot see it was not the mayhem and carnage it was portrayed to be . One horse hade to be PTs due to an injury and two had heart attacks after the race which none of us know was directly caused by anything. I still maintain if you look at that picture of the horse after the race it does not look in distress ,I see far worse everyday at the end of races under rules. You or nobody who was not there can tell me that those horses were not fit it can happen to the fittest and I am sure your OH being an experienced jockey will testify to that and I am sure if he studies the various videos that are about he will realise they did not go off at a stupid pace and the majority of the riders rode well within there horses capabilities,

Either you enjoy the sport of hunt races or you dont as they really are the preserve of the adrenalin junkie or the one off entrant to say I have done that. I have just found it incredible that riders from a totally different discipline can wade in condemning what happened on the back of an incorrect casualty number and they clearly did not have a clue about horses jumping or they were watching something completely different to what I saw perhaps as they say they should get out more!
 
yes, I thought so too and I was actually there. The last couple of paragraphs are of particular relevance to this thread and the comment regarding the fitness of some horses and the capability of some riders was very apt. However, IMHO it would be wrong and very unfair to automatically assume a link between horse fitness and rider capability with the three horses that died unless there is evidence that the horses were ridden incompetently or pushed on when they were clearly too tired to continue. I haven't seen any comment by someone who was there to that effect but I have read a lot of opinions by people who were not there.
gunnergundog said:
A good, and in my opinion, very fair write up of the event in H&H yesterday.
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gunnergundog said:
A good, and in my opinion, very fair write up of the event in H&H yesterday.
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Yes I thought it was fair and balanced , based on what I have watched online and the comments of those who where there .
It's been an interesting thread for me because I am considering J doing a similar shorter thing at the end of March .
 
http://www.golden-button.co.uk/golden-button-challenge-review-statement/

That is a statement on the Golden Button website.

I happen to know one of the fallers and I've heard that response times to the injured were terrible, with only 2 paramedics to cover the whole 60 riders.

Having watched the video, another thing that worried me was how short the run in was after the finishing posts. These horses would have been galloping and jumping for 3 miles at a fair speed and then have to come to almost a stand still in what looked like a very crowded area. At least at point to points and "proper" racecourses, the horses can gradually decrease speed instead of having to be pulled up to a stop almost.

I have no reason to dislike the event, from what I could see on the videos, the majority of the horses looked fit and I certainly know that the people I actually know who took part, are all very experienced hunt/point to point jockeys who are more than capable of completing the race and not only that, but who know how to get the horses prepared for a race of this nature.

I do think however, that the organisers need to review the location of the event for next year because this is England, we are going to get unexpected rain and the ground has to hold up, or failing that, the event needs to be postponed. Not only that, but the area after the finishing posts definitely needs to be extended into a large field where the horses aren't all going to be on top of each other (for want of a better expression)
 
Goldenstar said:
Yes I thought it was fair and balanced , based on what I have watched online and the comments of those who where there .
It's been an interesting thread for me because I am considering J doing a similar shorter thing at the end of March .
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Agree - very good report, but I would expect that as the writer is a very experienced hunter and has also reported on eventing and racing at the highest level. I think you would be unlikely to find another hunt ride staged in those sort of conditions Goldenstar - even the last running of this event, which I attended, was better ground. The Melton etc gets postponed if the ground is not right; the GB organisers probably didn't have that option looking at the sort of land it is run on - the farmers are likely ready to plough the maize stubble up soon and plant this season's crops.
I've watched this discussion with interest but not contributed as we weren't able to go to the GB this year; however I will say that I am quite closely involved with team chasing and we would not run an open team chase on that ground. Two paramedics would have been all that they were obliged to have under the conditions of their insurance I would think, but common sense would suggest more are needed with 62 runners!
 
Moomin1 said:
It's worrying Popsdosh that you seem hell bent on defending what really is inexcusable in this day and age. Of course accidents happen in all sports, and deaths too, but at the end of the day 4 horses dying in one event is more than just a coincidence IMO.

I also don't think you or anyone else can make any judgement as to the physical state of a horse via one photo.
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I agree with Moomin, that's an awful lots of deaths 'just for a race'.....sure I'll be called a bunny hugger but in the video with the grey horse, seemed to be a lot of whip waving around.

Looks great fun, I have to admit....but at some point the question has to be asked how can it be made safer for both horses and riders? Riders know the risks, horses do as they are told (most of the time!) but I guess it's OK because '....it's just a horse'....

A sad day.
 
elliefiz said:
My OH is a former top NH jockey and now a racehorse trainer. He is absolutely fearless as a rider but upon conversation about the Golden Button, he said he would never ride in it because it is far too dangerous and why risk a good horse like that? His horses race every week and there are always risks involved, but he doesn't put his horses in unnecessarily dangerous situations and having watched the videos of the race, I can completely understand his point. To compare the Golden Button to any professional race meeting or even a p2p is silly- trainers walk a course and pull horses from races if the ground isn't right, etc because it's always best to preserve a horse for another day. The Golden button is all about having a day out tearing across country with seemingly little regard for the horses welfare if the videos are anything to go by.

On a separate point, can anyone point me in the direction of a scientific study that proves horses "love" doing anything?? I truly want to see the reasoning behind assigning human emotions to an animal without proof they have that sort of emotional developement. Horses instinct is to stay with a pack, most will run themselves into the ground to stay with other horses. We are all aware that horses have no sense of self preservation, they aren't developed enough to think for themselves in that way. Yet we consider that they feel love? I hate the way people say the horse died doing what he loved, when the reality is the horse was doing something he has been trained to do. I have no thoughts on the right or wrongness of the older ex eventer dying after the race. But please to all who say oh he looked so happy, stop being ridiculous. His ears are pricked and head up because there are no doubt a large number of horses milling around as it appears to be the lorry car park, and naturally horses will be alert when other horses are around.
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Jolly good.
 
Is the hogged grey that featured in the video footage the same one that is pictured in the H&H report? The report singles the rider out for an 'admirable display of horsemanship', and that he 'jumped round beautifully at a sensible pace to finish with ears pricked'.

Maybe it was another horse though, as the video of the grey showed (as DS says), a lot of whip and rein waving and made for uncomfortable viewing. The chestnut's round seemed much more accomplished.

Good on H&H, though, for the final paragraph of the report.
 
So the report was carried out by the organisers of the race and asked only those riders who participated and found all OK. So that's OK then. Nothing to see here. Everyone move along.
 
Tiddlypom said:
Is the hogged grey that featured in the video footage the same one that is pictured in the H&H report? The report singles the rider out for an 'admirable display of horsemanship', and that he 'jumped round beautifully at a sensible pace to finish with ears pricked'.

Maybe it was another horse though, as the video of the grey showed (as DS says), a lot of whip and rein waving and made for uncomfortable viewing. The chestnut's round seemed much more accomplished.

Good on H&H, though, for the final paragraph of the report.
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Have they edited their report? I read it yesterday and could have sworn I saw some of those comments you've quoted above but they don't seem to be there now (unless I'm looking in the wrong place). I assumed it was another grey because like you, I found that section of the video very uncomfortable to watch, especially the finish where he was riding all out for what can have only been a very minor placing. There looked to be plenty of horses already home.

And yup, as one of the above posters mentioned, that run-in/finish area struck me as somewhat lacking.

I enjoyed watching the footage of the chestnut though.
 
Lexi_ said:
Have they edited their report? I read it yesterday and could have sworn I saw some of those comments you've quoted above but they don't seem to be there now (unless I'm looking in the wrong place).
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The report and photo I'm referring to is on p60 of this week's paper edition of H&H. The photographed rider has a strap around his helmet which could be a hatcam band. He is also riding one handed and waving his whip at the horse, in the manner in which the video rider appeared to do (and rather too often for my liking).

Thoroughly agree that the run in and finish area seemed to be far too cramped and inadequate.
 
Shrek-Eventing-SW said:
http://www.golden-button.co.uk/golden-button-challenge-review-statement/

That is a statement on the Golden Button website.

I happen to know one of the fallers and I've heard that response times to the injured were terrible, with only 2 paramedics to cover the whole 60 riders.

Having watched the video, another thing that worried me was how short the run in was after the finishing posts. These horses would have been galloping and jumping for 3 miles at a fair speed and then have to come to almost a stand still in what looked like a very crowded area. At least at point to points and "proper" racecourses, the horses can gradually decrease speed instead of having to be pulled up to a stop almost.

I have no reason to dislike the event, from what I could see on the videos, the majority of the horses looked fit and I certainly know that the people I actually know who took part, are all very experienced hunt/point to point jockeys who are more than capable of completing the race and not only that, but who know how to get the horses prepared for a race of this nature.

I do think however, that the organisers need to review the location of the event for next year because this is England, we are going to get unexpected rain and the ground has to hold up, or failing that, the event needs to be postponed. Not only that, but the area after the finishing posts definitely needs to be extended into a large field where the horses aren't all going to be on top of each other (for want of a better expression)
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Agree with you, he collecting ring at the end that included the finish was tiny.
 
Looks awful, sure probably "fun" for the riders but why put your horse at so much risk? I wouldn't ask my horse to gallop for 3 miles through deep mud and try to jump in and out of it whilst trying to swerve out of the way of other horses. Not surprised there were horses killed. Some people just take it too far IMO.
 
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