Golden button challenge

oh come on..the press love anything against hunting - this is a big news story....spun the right or wrong way this is a politically hot story. that is why there is no mention of any casualties on the website and even H and H have been silenced. I am not a mug ..this is spin spin spin.....
 
Doormouse said:
I have to admit that watching the head cam footage makes me think that even I could toddle along at the back through the holes and have a lovely ride!
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Exactly what I thought Doormouse! Stay out the back, out of trouble and aim for the gaps!! I did consider doing it (for about 5 seconds) but the yucky ground would have been more of a factor for me than the course ... pathological hatred of mud!
 
I must admit the ground didn't impress me much either and I hunt in the deepest country you can imagine!

I would never ask a common horse to race at anything, a good strong 3 mile chaser who is fit and healthy should be well able for this if ridden well and not carrying too much weight.

In fairness, I regularly see many people out hunting asking too much of their horses out of deep ground because they are not knowledgeable enough to realise when a horse is tired. A tired horse will often pull harder and behave worse than a fresh one but very few people hunting these days know this.
 
PS - it is clear what popsdosh means. You have been very defensive in the past when decisions you've made about your horses have been questioned.

So it goes a bit beyond the pale to accuse someone of effectively abusing their old horse and driving it to its death. Not if you're not happy with the boot being on the other foot.

Who are you to say what the best retirement for any horse will be? A horse that loves xc and jumping is probably far happier to spend its retirement out hunting than it is quietly hacking 4x a week.

I watched several videos of the race. In the main saw horses that kept jumping well right to the end, ears pricked and enjoying themselves. Must have been watching a different video as certainly the ones I saw were not all exhausted and being forced to drag themselves over every fence.
 
Good post xspiralx.

PS - do you know for a fact that the horse who died of a heart attack did not have a pre existing undiagnosed heart condition? If the answer is no then all your posts are supposition which in this case is inappropriate.
 
kate2323 said:
I find it really odd that neither horse and hound magazine has sent any comment about the race in their frequent email updates ( I am a subscriber ) and if you look on the golden button website not one mention...just a video of the day...of the casualties .Is this because they are trying to keep it out of the national press perhaps by "burying " the story? methinks the answer is yes.....
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I'm surprised at h+h as much as anything- they have put a photo up on their facebook page saying it looked as tough as usual or similar but no mention of deaths when I'd think hunt races were certainly in their remit.

I'm happy that it might just be a series of unfortunate events/accidents but would like to hear them say they will look into it to see if anything can be done for future runnings.
 
kate2323 said:
oh come on..the press love anything against hunting - this is a big news story....spun the right or wrong way this is a politically hot story. that is why there is no mention of any casualties on the website and even H and H have been silenced. I am not a mug ..this is spin spin spin.....
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Actually there were numerous press people there and none so far have deemed it news worthy! They must all be trying to bury it!!!

Just wish to make things clear my outburst earlier was to try and defend somebody who I felt was being unfairly treated by PS .
 
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yes they probably are...hunting is too hot a subject at the moment...dont get me wrong i love hunting but the lack of any "press "on this tragic race says alot....
 
horse and hound report on ponies stuck in rivers and a rescue horse dying as it is rescued...weird they havent reported on this race when privately owned horses died...
 
kate2323 said:
yes they probably are...hunting is too hot a subject at the moment...dont get me wrong i love hunting but the lack of any "press "on this tragic race says alot....
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Put into perspective probably 20 horses died on Sunday through neglect. Any horse death is a tragedy and nobody wants to see it but no amount of fuss will bring one of them back now , just need to take in what happened and analyse the reasons each one died and then decide if and its a big if, anything can be done to prevent it happening again, I am afraid sensationalising it on here is not going to achieve that!!
 
Prince33Sp4rkle said:
as for the ex eventer that died after he finished, did the rider not owe the horse more? Bruce will not die "doing what he loved" ie passaging his nuts off in, a white foam sweat, because he gave his ALL to me and NMT and has earnt a quiet and SAFE retirement.
im sure that horse could have been kept in work in a less dangerous way.
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PS I usually really enjoy your posts but I think that is quite a bold comment coming from you, and if I'd made the same statement about yours you would, rightly, be angry given I hadn't known your horse.

I've never done the button but I've done the Melton and I absolutely didn't boot the horse round. He was a retired eventer who hunted twice a week and is still going strong today - I took him because I thought he would enjoy it, and in my humble opinion he felt like he did. Retiring him to hacking was not an option for him, nor spinning in 20m circles as a "school master". Every horse is an individual as you are always quick to remind people, some horses are too busy minded for a slow retirement.
 
My OH is a former top NH jockey and now a racehorse trainer. He is absolutely fearless as a rider but upon conversation about the Golden Button, he said he would never ride in it because it is far too dangerous and why risk a good horse like that? His horses race every week and there are always risks involved, but he doesn't put his horses in unnecessarily dangerous situations and having watched the videos of the race, I can completely understand his point. To compare the Golden Button to any professional race meeting or even a p2p is silly- trainers walk a course and pull horses from races if the ground isn't right, etc because it's always best to preserve a horse for another day. The Golden button is all about having a day out tearing across country with seemingly little regard for the horses welfare if the videos are anything to go by.

On a separate point, can anyone point me in the direction of a scientific study that proves horses "love" doing anything?? I truly want to see the reasoning behind assigning human emotions to an animal without proof they have that sort of emotional developement. Horses instinct is to stay with a pack, most will run themselves into the ground to stay with other horses. We are all aware that horses have no sense of self preservation, they aren't developed enough to think for themselves in that way. Yet we consider that they feel love? I hate the way people say the horse died doing what he loved, when the reality is the horse was doing something he has been trained to do. I have no thoughts on the right or wrongness of the older ex eventer dying after the race. But please to all who say oh he looked so happy, stop being ridiculous. His ears are pricked and head up because there are no doubt a large number of horses milling around as it appears to be the lorry car park, and naturally horses will be alert when other horses are around.
 
elliefiz said:
My OH is a former top NH jockey and now a racehorse trainer. He is absolutely fearless as a rider but upon conversation about the Golden Button, he said he would never ride in it because it is far too dangerous and why risk a good horse like that? His horses race every week and there are always risks involved, but he doesn't put his horses in unnecessarily dangerous situations and having watched the videos of the race, I can completely understand his point. To compare the Golden Button to any professional race meeting or even a p2p is silly- trainers walk a course and pull horses from races if the ground isn't right, etc because it's always best to preserve a horse for another day. The Golden button is all about having a day out tearing across country with seemingly little regard for the horses welfare if the videos are anything to go by.

On a separate point, can anyone point me in the direction of a scientific study that proves horses "love" doing anything?? I truly want to see the reasoning behind assigning human emotions to an animal without proof they have that sort of emotional developement. Horses instinct is to stay with a pack, most will run themselves into the ground to stay with other horses. We are all aware that horses have no sense of self preservation, they aren't developed enough to think for themselves in that way. Yet we consider that they feel love? I hate the way people say the horse died doing what he loved, when the reality is the horse was doing something he has been trained to do. I have no thoughts on the right or wrongness of the older ex eventer dying after the race. But please to all who say oh he looked so happy, stop being ridiculous. His ears are pricked and head up because there are no doubt a large number of horses milling around as it appears to be the lorry car park, and naturally horses will be alert when other horses are around.
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Amen
 
RunToEarth said:
PS I usually really enjoy your posts but I think that is quite a bold comment coming from you, and if I'd made the same statement about yours you would, rightly, be angry given I hadn't known your horse.

I've never done the button but I've done the Melton and I absolutely didn't boot the horse round. He was a retired eventer who hunted twice a week and is still going strong today - I took him because I thought he would enjoy it, and in my humble opinion he felt like he did. Retiring him to hacking was not an option for him, nor spinning in 20m circles as a "school master". Every horse is an individual as you are always quick to remind people, some horses are too busy minded for a slow retirement.
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thats fine, we dont always have to agree on everything :)

i still dont agree with it, not one little bit and im not sure that just because ive disagreed with people over my horse in the past, that means i cant have an opinion on any other horse now? disagreement, argument, call it what you will, its what happens when hundreds of people discuss any topic.

i dont think races such as this are fair on the horses at all, thats just how i feel.
 
elliefiz said:
My OH is a former top NH jockey and now a racehorse trainer. He is absolutely fearless as a rider but upon conversation about the Golden Button, he said he would never ride in it because it is far too dangerous and why risk a good horse like that? His horses race every week and there are always risks involved, but he doesn't put his horses in unnecessarily dangerous situations and having watched the videos of the race, I can completely understand his point. To compare the Golden Button to any professional race meeting or even a p2p is silly- trainers walk a course and pull horses from races if the ground isn't right, etc because it's always best to preserve a horse for another day. The Golden button is all about having a day out tearing across country with seemingly little regard for the horses welfare if the videos are anything to go by.

On a separate point, can anyone point me in the direction of a scientific study that proves horses "love" doing anything?? I truly want to see the reasoning behind assigning human emotions to an animal without proof they have that sort of emotional developement. Horses instinct is to stay with a pack, most will run themselves into the ground to stay with other horses. We are all aware that horses have no sense of self preservation, they aren't developed enough to think for themselves in that way. Yet we consider that they feel love? I hate the way people say the horse died doing what he loved, when the reality is the horse was doing something he has been trained to do. I have no thoughts on the right or wrongness of the older ex eventer dying after the race. But please to all who say oh he looked so happy, stop being ridiculous. His ears are pricked and head up because there are no doubt a large number of horses milling around as it appears to be the lorry car park, and naturally horses will be alert when other horses are around.
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Have to disagree that al horses lack self preservation, many do have plenty. If they have none why do all of mine choose to walk round the boggy bits on the bridleway rather than through them? Why does my unshod pony choose to scrape through the bushes at the side of a track rather than walk on the stones? Why do some refuse a fence when they've got it wrong, even when following? Refusing to load, etc, etc, I would call all that self preservation and would not want a horse with none.

As for loving things, mine certainly love food :)

As for PS, I totally understand her opinion, as far as I can tell the horse in question was a 17 year old high mileage event horse and I'm sure many people would agree with her POV an d I have to wonder if people would have quite so quick to jump to the rider's defence had she not been a former forum member.
 
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marmalade76 said:
Have to disagree that al horses lack self preservation, many do have plenty. If they have none why do all of mine choose to walk round the boggy bits on the bridleway rather than through them? Why does my unshod pony choose to scrape through the bushes at the side of a track rather than walk on the stones? Why do some refuse a fence when they've got it wrong, even when following? Refusing to load, etc, etc, I would call all that self preservation and would not want a horse with none.

As for loving things, mine certainly love food :)

As for PS, I totally understand her opinion, as far as I can tell the horse in question was a 17 year old high mileage event horse and I'm sure many people would agree with her POV an d I have to wonder if people would have quite so quick to jump to the rider's defence had she not been a former forum member.
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Of course they would jump to her defence when somebody in my opinion was being unfairly attacked perhaps you did not see the worst of it as some was removed..
What age did opposition buzz do his last 3*? they are not past it at 17 I do have to laugh when the PS cliche start defending her on a subject most of them and her know diddily squat about.
 
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I think I worded it incorrectly, horses do have self preservation unless under extreme fear for their lives when they will do anything to escape an imagined threat. The point I was trying to make is that a horse will stay with a pack even at a risk of injury to itself, indeed many horses in racing who have injured themselves during the race don't pull up but continue running. They also have no natural sense of right and wrong, my mare for example will lean against the fence until it breaks to get grass on the other side. Not sure why, she is in a field with plenty of grass but to her the grass is quite literally always greener. She broke the fence in the past and then pushed through it, scratching herself on the nails and broken wood. At no point did she think oh that might be a bad idea, I might get hurt. That's the type of self preservation I was talking about. She went into field the next time and attempted to do the exact same thing only we had put electric wire up and she couldn't. It doesn't scream of a horse being a terribly intelligent being. And yet we consider them to have some sort of emotional development that they do things out of love not because they have been trained a certain way or their survival instinct is kicking in?? As for your horse loving his food, I think scientifically he doesn't "love" anything, it's just the easiest way for us humans to describe it in our terms, especially when they mob you to get their dinner. But anyway I am going way off topic so apologies for hi jacking the thread, it gets my back up when anyone says an animal has died doing what it "loved", I doubt any horse who died on Saturday would have been at home in a field thinking darn it I am missing the golden button race and I would have loved to do it.
 
marmalade76 said:
H
As for PS, I totally understand her opinion, as far as I can tell the horse in question was a 17 year old high mileage event horse and I'm sure many people would agree with her POV an d I have to wonder if people would have quite so quick to jump to the rider's defence had she not been a former forum member.
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17 is not old for a horse, Opposition Buzz was 17 and going round 3*s, if I remember Imperial Cavalier did his last Badminton age 17 and has now continued to compete at a lower level. As for jumping to the rider's defence..the horse had a heart-attack, a very unfortunate and devastating occurrence, such the same happened to Wild Lone at WEG. We are told the horse was prepared meticulously, and both the rider and horse were perfectly capable and experienced..as shown by their safe completion of the course. Who knows what caused the heart attck, its highly likely to be an undiagnosed/undetected heart problem or it 'just happened' (thsi happened to my friend's dad), whatever it was the fact that it occurred after the Golden Button is most probably a complete coincidence. Wormy does not need defending, she has no reason to when she has done nothing wrong.
 
Self preservation is very different when adrenaline is involved-my unshod will go over any ground out hunting some of which he might be funny about hacking - and will be footy the next day for it. Same with boggy patches etc I usually let him determine pace hacking if he pulls up there is usually a reason no chance of that hunting though!
 
LittleRoodolphRider said:
17 is not old for a horse, Opposition Buzz was 17 and going round 3*s, if I remember Imperial Cavalier did his last Badminton age 17 and has now continued to compete at a lower level. As for jumping to the rider's defence..the horse had a heart-attack, a very unfortunate and devastating occurrence, such the same happened to Wild Lone at WEG. We are told the horse was prepared meticulously, and both the rider and horse were perfectly capable and experienced..as shown by their safe completion of the course. Who knows what caused the heart attck, its highly likely to be an undiagnosed/undetected heart problem or it 'just happened' (thsi happened to my friend's dad), whatever it was the fact that it occurred after the Golden Button is most probably a complete coincidence. Wormy does not need defending, she has no reason to when she has done nothing wrong.
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I don't need a patronising lecture, thank you, I was merely stating that I UNDERTOOD PS's POV and that there are many out there who would agree with her.
 
elliefiz said:
I think I worded it incorrectly, horses do have self preservation unless under extreme fear for their lives when they will do anything to escape an imagined threat. The point I was trying to make is that a horse will stay with a pack even at a risk of injury to itself, indeed many horses in racing who have injured themselves during the race don't pull up but continue running. They also have no natural sense of right and wrong, my mare for example will lean against the fence until it breaks to get grass on the other side. Not sure why, she is in a field with plenty of grass but to her the grass is quite literally always greener. She broke the fence in the past and then pushed through it, scratching herself on the nails and broken wood. At no point did she think oh that might be a bad idea, I might get hurt. That's the type of self preservation I was talking about. She went into field the next time and attempted to do the exact same thing only we had put electric wire up and she couldn't. It doesn't scream of a horse being a terribly intelligent being. And yet we consider them to have some sort of emotional development that they do things out of love not because they have been trained a certain way or their survival instinct is kicking in?? As for your horse loving his food, I think scientifically he doesn't "love" anything, it's just the easiest way for us humans to describe it in our terms, especially when they mob you to get their dinner. But anyway I am going way off topic so apologies for hi jacking the thread, it gets my back up when anyone says an animal has died doing what it "loved", I doubt any horse who died on Saturday would have been at home in a field thinking darn it I am missing the golden button race and I would have loved to do it.
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I'm not disagreeing with you! Re 'love', the comment about food was a joke, as indicated by the added smilie.
And the self preservation, you must have a dim horse 'cause there have been several occasions he various horses of mine have got their feet through the wire fencing (they are on a farm) and each one has waited, attached to the fence, to be rescued, not pulled themselves free and damaged themselves in the process

Yes, hoses will run on on adrenaline, but I really don't think any of my horses have felt they were running for their lives every time I've been hunting, team chasing or having a gallop over the hill.
 
popsdosh said:
Of course they would jump to her defence when somebody in my opinion was being unfairly attacked perhaps you did not see the worst of it as some was removed..
What age did opposition buzz do his last 3*? they are not past it at 17 I do have to laugh when the PS cliche start defending her on a subject most of them and her know diddily squat about.
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I am not part of her nor anyone else's clique and having hunted, teamchased and competed in a similar hunt race I wouldn't say I know diddly squat on the subject.
 
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marmalade76 said:
I am not part of her or anyone else's clique and having hunted, teamchased and competed in a similar hunt race I wouldn't say I know diddly squat on the subject.
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Point taken however as others have pointed out you cannot judge what happened to Wormy's horse without knowing all the facts ! That is all I have asked people to do wait till they know what the facts are they dont even know the true number. The attack was unfair and looked worse before it was edited.
 
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