Good enough for a working pupil??

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Marmite Sandwich

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Its been suggested to my eldest that if they are sooo determinded to persue an equine career that he follows the route of a working pupil.
I have protested (strongly) that he is not good enough - and i have been told that many of these positions would rather he was a complete beginer so that he can be taught their way.
Also with live in positions are the students paid an allowance as well please??
 
You have told your son that he is not good enough? Now that's a confidence boost.

Everyone has to start somewhere and that's why it's called working PUPIL - you are trained and you will learn on the job.
 
No idea on the working pupil thing but I'd guess that the emphasis is on " pupil" so employers would be providing on the job training.

I'm not a parent but I'd maybe lay off strongly letting your child know that you don't think they're good enough. I'm a fairly well rounded, well adjusted 30yr but the first thing that came into my head when reading your post was my mum not letting me jump on the PC team ( the DC asked me too) because I wouldn't be good enough and how bad would I feel when I let them down. It really upset me then and still stings 17yrs later :/

I'm guessing you've only said it out of concern but words can leave long lasting wounds...

My parents stopped me going to ag college because I was ' supposed' to be a vet ( I'm not one!). I know they just wanted what they thought was better for me in their opinion but you can't put a price on happiness and contentment. If your child wants to be a WP why not help them find the best possible placement? It's never too late should they decide to change career away from horses but it's often too late to be a WP.
 
In what way is he not good enough to be a working pupil? the work involves mainly ***** shovelling, and the pupil part should mean he learns on the job.
 
It also depends on how old he is, what his resources are etc.

I presume this is his idea and he has expressed a serious interest in it. What is he doing at this point to further his riding re weekend work, reading, watching etc. Has he researched the options and what they involve? The fact that you are asking about stipends would suggest he hasn't presented you with a formulated plan.

Skill level is not the most important thing in a working student, willingness to work (the clue is in the title ;)) and to learn are essential.

It's important to find a good position with good people. Often NOT having a horse is an advantage as not every yard offers board for a horse as well.

I agree that simply telling him he's not good enough is probably not the most productive route but I would also say he needs to bring quite a bit to the party. It's a tough business and the ONLY people who succeed in the long haul are self starters who can keep on pluggin'.
 
ainouu said:
You have told your son that he is not good enough? Now that's a confidence boost.

Everyone has to start somewhere and that's why it's called working PUPIL - you are trained and you will learn on the job.
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I'm quite sure that not once did I type that I have told him he isnt good enough ;)
My son however is aware of his own capabilities or more to the point lack of

He is very good with horses on the ground and has a very enthusiastic attitude and willingness to learn. However his actual riding ability is beginner - he can walk and trot and sort of canter and has popped a couple of little jumps.

Some people have said it doesnt matter as he can be taught in accordance with the teachers will - others think he needs to be a good rider in order to go on to be taught how to instruct/ compete etc
It is this point that i'd like some thoughts on please? :)
 
It depends almost entirely on the individual circumstances. Will he get a position with an event rider looking for a stable jockey? No, definitely not. But you might be surprised how willing some places are to take even quite inexperienced people if they show promise. The real trick is they have to have a horse available for someone at that level, and someone willing to teach them.

Has he thought about starting with somewhere that has school horses? That may not be his ultimate goal but if he does well there and makes contacts it could lead to bigger things.
 
TarrSteps said:
It depends almost entirely on the individual circumstances. Will he get a position with an event rider looking for a stable jockey? No, definitely not. But you might be surprised how willing some places are to take even quite inexperienced people if they show promise. The real trick is they have to have a horse available for someone at that level, and someone willing to teach them.

Has he thought about starting with somewhere that has school horses? That may not be his ultimate goal but if he does well there and makes contacts it could lead to bigger things.
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Thank you, thats really helpful and he has an interview at a local riding school for an apprentiship on monday :)

Millsandboon - I have always told my children the truth - maybe not always the whole truth but always the truth :D

He was at 6th form studying to go on to do a law degree but because it made him unhappy i have supported him dropping out in order to do something more practical.
What i dont want is for me to "big him up" just because i'm his mum - i would rather be realistic and if he doesnt stand a cat in hells chance of getting a job with horses then i can do a damage limitation excercise and suggest he tries plumbing instead.
I think at 17 and only learning since xmas he already knows he's not ready to go out eventing tho ;)
 
As an example, I used to run a large riding school and all the employees got a lesson per week as part of their package, usually on a Monday when we had a half day. They could also get some riding if they were willing to stay later or ride during lunch. The fact is the equestrian industry is very "apprentice" based and hard work, a sunny attitude, asking questions (but not being too questioning if that makes sense) and being willing to learn counts for an awful lot.

Also, how willing/able are you to support him financially? Riding is an expensive sport, there is no way around it. I'm not saying you have to buy him a horse but if you could help him financially sometimes it would help a lot. If he is serious about this as a career path then it has to be treated as such, both in terms of application and investment.
 
TarrSteps said:
As an example, I used to run a large riding school and all the employees got a lesson per week as part of their package, usually on a Monday when we had a half day. They could also get some riding if they were willing to stay later or ride during lunch. The fact is the equestrian industry is very "apprentice" based and hard work, a sunny attitude, asking questions (but not being too questioning if that makes sense) and being willing to learn counts for an awful lot.

Also, how willing/able are you to support him financially? Riding is an expensive sport, there is no way around it. I'm not saying you have to buy him a horse but if you could help him financially sometimes it would help a lot. If he is serious about this as a career path then it has to be treated as such, both in terms of application and investment.
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That is the way i did my training and my qualifications all those years ago :D on a YTS for my sins lol! Then i went off and got a "proper" job. That type of thing would probably serve him quite well as a starting point. He can help with our horses at any time and can always learn from them too - I would expect to have to "kit him out" & insurances etc and that he would be on a low income. Are there other types of hidden costs that i've not thought of??
 
Marmite Sandwich said:
What i dont want is for me to "big him up" just because i'm his mum - i would rather be realistic and if he doesnt stand a cat in hells chance of getting a job with horses then i can do a damage limitation excercise and suggest he tries plumbing instead.
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I couldn't agree more Marmite. I hate seeing Mums who tell their kids who are clearly crap at something that they are fabulous, when a good dose of realism would serve them better. Some children never know where they stand with their parents because they never know whether they are being lied to or not in the name of "saying the right thing"
 
I believe Jonathan Paget who won Badders this year didn't start riding until late teens... poss even early 20's I can't remember. So being a late starter can lead to big things on occasions :)

Correct me if I'm wrong I heard it about someone at Badders I'm sure! :o

I hope your son finds something that makes him happy :)
 
You are right, anna, Jock had only done a limited amount of riding before he went to work for Kevin McKnab at 18. Apparently he initially traded his bricklaying skills for riding.

I am the last person to tell people this is an easy industry. But the people I have seen do the best are the ones who throw themselves into it wholeheartedly. The ones who don't want to leave home/give up their horse/put themselves out/do any job etc are down before they start. It's also an industry where, unfortunately, their is a huge potential for keen young people to be taken advantage of. I suspect the best thing you can do for your son is to help him be clear eyed and realistic. But, if he does fall in with the wrong people, help him get out quickly before he gets hurt or disillusioned. Keep talking him about what he's up to. Best (only, really) thing is for him to find a mentor. It doesn't even have to be someone who employs or teaches him, just someone in the industry to guide him.

Hopefully we'll be reading about him in H&H in ten years time. :)
 
Marmite Sandwich said:
I'm quite sure that not once did I type that I have told him he isnt good enough ;)
My son however is aware of his own capabilities or more to the point lack of

He is very good with horses on the ground and has a very enthusiastic attitude and willingness to learn. However his actual riding ability is beginner - he can walk and trot and sort of canter and has popped a couple of little jumps.

Some people have said it doesnt matter as he can be taught in accordance with the teachers will - others think he needs to be a good rider in order to go on to be taught how to instruct/ compete etc
It is this point that i'd like some thoughts on please? :)
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There are working pupil positions to be had in 'groom' positions, with the long term view of becoming a head groom. I don't know whether his aspirations are to eventually ride professionally, but good, empathetic, trust worthy grooms are a commodity that is often hard to find because so many youngsters don't see the horse care a a skill and just want to ride. Top level competitors need top level grooms to enable them to compete successfully, and they will happily train someone to ride to the level required if they think they are a good long-term groom prospect.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong but don't the British racing school train up complete beginners? Your son may not want to go into racing but it would give you a good grounding.
 
I have a trial for a working pupil position for a dressage rider: I have never done dressage in my life and nor has the 13-year-old SJ pony I share who I'd be taking with me if I get it! Despite the fact I'm up against young pro dressage riders with dressage trained/bred horses, the woman seemed to like the fact I'd be a blank slate: especially as when I rode her Grand Prix schoolmaster in my interview, she didn't even ask me to canter but said my position was very weak & that i'm very unfit, but not to feel bad about it as she just wanted to see if she could train me rather than how good I was.
Your son should absolutely go for it! If he only aims for what he (or should I say, you) think he deserves then that's exactly what he'll get ... not a lot. If he doesn't try then he doesn't get. I am not a great rider - I'm out of practise with worse balance & coordination than most people due to my dyspraxia. However I still got a trial with 2 other girls for an (NB unpaid with no expenses etc) dressage internship out of 800 applicants! Just goes to show, but even so I'll be the 1st one laughing if I actually get it!
 
Puzzles said:
I have a trial for a working pupil position for a dressage rider: I have never done dressage in my life and nor has the 13-year-old SJ pony I share who I'd be taking with me if I get it! Despite the fact I'm up against young pro dressage riders with dressage trained/bred horses, the woman seemed to like the fact I'd be a blank slate: especially as when I rode her Grand Prix schoolmaster in my interview, she didn't even ask me to canter but said my position was very weak & that i'm very unfit, but not to feel bad about it as she just wanted to see if she could train me rather than how good I was.
Your son should absolutely go for it! If he only aims for what he (or should I say, you) think he deserves then that's exactly what he'll get ... not a lot. If he doesn't try then he doesn't get. I am not a great rider - I'm out of practise with worse balance & coordination than most people due to my dyspraxia. However I still got a trial with 2 other girls for an (NB unpaid with no expenses etc) dressage internship out of 800 applicants! Just goes to show, but even so I'll be the 1st one laughing if I actually get it!
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Puzzles, that's really great, best of luck :)
 
Well done Puzzles, although I may know who you are applying with the job for, if its the person I think it is my mate is also going for a trail. 800 applicants that's pretty good!!! And yep they want to be able to train some people are already more set into there own ways. And opi would say let him a weeks work on a yard, different yards want there WP's at different levels, it's very much dependant on the yard etc.
 
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