KIMBY
Well-Known Member
There has been a few posts on here regarding his temperament i know he can be volatile but what is the opinion of his confirmation from anyone who has seen him in the flesh or had a foal of his.
GRAFENSTOLZ
- Thread starter KIMBY
- Start date
madmare22
Well-Known Member
i think he is stunning and tbh his temperament is good in the box and when i went to see him. He is just hot under saddle, all three of his paces are good and he has a super jump.
henryhorn
Well-Known Member
Regardless of how well conformed a stallion might be, why would anyone want to breed from a known "hot" temperament?
Sorry madmare but surely you need to take trainability into consideration as well as results and conformation?
Otherwise all you may be breeding are horses who will have no option but to be rides for professionals, and if they turn out not to be not top class, what use are they?
Having spent over 25 years trying to eliminate the "hot" part from our bloodline, believe me I know what I'm talking about!
Yes the horses can have the best jump, the bravest attitude, but if it takes twice as long to train or produce them, why bother!
Sorry madmare but surely you need to take trainability into consideration as well as results and conformation?
Otherwise all you may be breeding are horses who will have no option but to be rides for professionals, and if they turn out not to be not top class, what use are they?
Having spent over 25 years trying to eliminate the "hot" part from our bloodline, believe me I know what I'm talking about!
Yes the horses can have the best jump, the bravest attitude, but if it takes twice as long to train or produce them, why bother!
JRR
Active Member
Well he was clearly trainable enough to qualify for the Bundeschampion in ALL THREE phases, so I wouldn't discount him too much on that score.
It takes two to make a foal and arguably the mare has more influence.
It takes two to make a foal and arguably the mare has more influence.
Heartbreaker
New User
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It takes two to make a foal and arguably the mare has more influence.
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You mean like it took 2 people to lead him whilst ridden to the arena for the stallion parades last summer? Having previously been lunged extensively. Yes, I see where you are coming from
It takes two to make a foal and arguably the mare has more influence.
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You mean like it took 2 people to lead him whilst ridden to the arena for the stallion parades last summer? Having previously been lunged extensively. Yes, I see where you are coming from
Diggory
Well-Known Member
It doesn't matter how talented his owner and fans make him out to be: he was a nutjob at Twemlows and at stallion parades. I didn't like the twist in his forelimb or his dreadfully collapsed feet too, although maybe he'd had a rubbish farrier to cause the latter. There really ought to be more achievers out there by him by now, if his stock are cutting the mustard. Looking the part isn't enough - you need the brains, the trainability and the desire to work with a rider too.
madmare22
Well-Known Member
Just because they are hot/sharp doesnt mean they are not trainable. I think his dressage results at the moment are speaking for themselves, he really isnt that old to be winning at PSG, which suggests he is trainable. I am sure that you are aware, as a 6 year old he made history by being the only horse to qualify for the finals in all three disciplines, surely this shows his trainability and alos versatility.
My best mare, as judged by many people who know a great deal more than me and perhaps even you is one of the hottest horses i know. I am no professional, in fact i would say no more than average, but managed to train her to PSG too.
I have bred from her and even with a hot stallion her foals have been really laid back.
When i went to see him, he was well mannered, stood up nicely, walked and trotted in a mannerly way in hand, his handler spoke highly of him and his attitude. So what, at shows he has been seen to be lunged before the rider gets on. Big deal, i have seen some mares and geldings that have to be lunged before ridden, and not particularly special horses at that.
Sadly my mare lost the foal she was carrying by him but hey ho we can try again this year.
There are those that like him and those that dont. i like him. He is well put together, has 3 good paces and seems to be getting the results required.
I would advise the OP to go and see him in the flesh to get a feel for themselves. He is much more blood type in the flesh than i expected.
My best mare, as judged by many people who know a great deal more than me and perhaps even you is one of the hottest horses i know. I am no professional, in fact i would say no more than average, but managed to train her to PSG too.
I have bred from her and even with a hot stallion her foals have been really laid back.
When i went to see him, he was well mannered, stood up nicely, walked and trotted in a mannerly way in hand, his handler spoke highly of him and his attitude. So what, at shows he has been seen to be lunged before the rider gets on. Big deal, i have seen some mares and geldings that have to be lunged before ridden, and not particularly special horses at that.
Sadly my mare lost the foal she was carrying by him but hey ho we can try again this year.
There are those that like him and those that dont. i like him. He is well put together, has 3 good paces and seems to be getting the results required.
I would advise the OP to go and see him in the flesh to get a feel for themselves. He is much more blood type in the flesh than i expected.
madmare22
Well-Known Member
Just in response to your post Diggory, I saw him twice at Twemlows and he wasnt a nut job when i saw him. I also watched him quite often on their stalcam, i like to see how they behave in their boxes and he seemed quite calm even though he had quite a busy covering season.
S_N
Well-Known Member
And the stock are where? With the MASSIVE books this horse is supposed to have had and considering he is SO amazing, you'd expect to have heard far more about his progeny, esp considering the meek wallflower that promotes him. Unless of course his fertility is questionable or that a large number of his stock aren't cutting the grade for some reason or other. A handful of good horses doesn't really cut it, statistically speaking. I also find it interesting as to why he was allowed to escape the net, if he is such a wonder horse - the continentals don't let their best horses go!
Eothain
Well-Known Member
People said Cruising was hot and that his stock were unrideable. They're nothing of the sort.
The stallion Errigal Flight has spent most his life with a bit in his mouth because he'd literally take your arm off. His owner is missing several fingers. ... His stock aren't wicked though!
The stallion Errigal Flight has spent most his life with a bit in his mouth because he'd literally take your arm off. His owner is missing several fingers. ... His stock aren't wicked though!
koeffee
Well-Known Member
Unfortunatlly this horse and any other associated with kr will always have there lovers and haters.which is a shame. If you like the horse go and see for yourself.
henryhorn
Well-Known Member
Keoffee my response was nothing whatsoever to do with whoever owns the stallion mentioned, it's my personal opinion based on breeding over a number of years.
Madmare you must agree that a hot temperament makes training more difficult and slower in many cases, so why would you want to give yourself that extra problem to start with!
You have been lucky if you put a hot mare to a similar stallion, it's a chance I wouldn't risk.
We took a long time to arrive at our present combination, a proven jumping line put to a stallion who's mother competed at top level and who's sire has produced a similar mare in the BE rankings.
His temperament and trainability was a prime factor, and the proof is that the same comments keep coming back from the offsprings' new owners and trainers who all state the youngstock are talented and so easy to ride they can go in whatever discipline the owners want.
It was pointed out to me the other day by a former Badminton rider that in the Uk there are thousands of horse owners, of those a small number want top flight horses and don't mind problems such as being hot, the majority want sane, trainable horses who do reasonably well at all three disciplines, so why would anyone then go for breeding for the minority? (especially if your foal may be a difficult ride?)
Sorry to be highjacking your enquiry OP, but to me temperament has to be a major factor in choosing a stallion which is why I responded.
Madmare you must agree that a hot temperament makes training more difficult and slower in many cases, so why would you want to give yourself that extra problem to start with!
You have been lucky if you put a hot mare to a similar stallion, it's a chance I wouldn't risk.
We took a long time to arrive at our present combination, a proven jumping line put to a stallion who's mother competed at top level and who's sire has produced a similar mare in the BE rankings.
His temperament and trainability was a prime factor, and the proof is that the same comments keep coming back from the offsprings' new owners and trainers who all state the youngstock are talented and so easy to ride they can go in whatever discipline the owners want.
It was pointed out to me the other day by a former Badminton rider that in the Uk there are thousands of horse owners, of those a small number want top flight horses and don't mind problems such as being hot, the majority want sane, trainable horses who do reasonably well at all three disciplines, so why would anyone then go for breeding for the minority? (especially if your foal may be a difficult ride?)
Sorry to be highjacking your enquiry OP, but to me temperament has to be a major factor in choosing a stallion which is why I responded.
Halfstep
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
People said Cruising was hot and that his stock were unrideable. They're nothing of the sort.
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A fair number of his stock are definitely "professional's" horses mind - and even when he was at his very best (no horse had as good a natural jump as Cruising IMHO) he was a really tricky ride with a dirty stop. When the ride went from Trevor Coyle (who had an amazing relationship with that horse) even Eddie Macken couldn't get a tune out of him.
I know nothing about Grafenstolz but have seen him once at a show under Liz D and liked what I saw. I wouldn't have said he was particularly hot for a dressage horse either........
People said Cruising was hot and that his stock were unrideable. They're nothing of the sort.
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A fair number of his stock are definitely "professional's" horses mind - and even when he was at his very best (no horse had as good a natural jump as Cruising IMHO) he was a really tricky ride with a dirty stop. When the ride went from Trevor Coyle (who had an amazing relationship with that horse) even Eddie Macken couldn't get a tune out of him.
I know nothing about Grafenstolz but have seen him once at a show under Liz D and liked what I saw. I wouldn't have said he was particularly hot for a dressage horse either........
KIMBY
Well-Known Member
Welcome everyones opinion i have become very interested in blood lines of late . The mare in question is a warmblood very laid back easily trained but not brilliant confirmation so will go and have a look at Graf along with others. However have another mare who is only four Carpaccio/Caretino who is a little hot head when you get her working well goes brilliantly and so clever in her jumping but did not expect her to be so sharp would you have expected this Henryhorn ?
madmare22
Well-Known Member
Actually henryhorn, in general i have found that it is easier to train a sharp horse as they seem to 'get it' quicker, and once they do 'get it' they remember it. Whe i was younger and braver i used to reschool TBs that were too slow for racing and i always found the sharper hotter ones easier.
henryhorn
Well-Known Member
You're very lucky to have that talent madmare, the majority of us prefer slightly saner rides!
I agree some sharp horses learn quickly, but my description of hot is a horse who gets over excited in company or at comps not when being trained.
There is nothing quite so frustrating as a horse who will produce a sub 20 test at home only to blow it in public.
Having had my daughter working in the eventing/dressage worlds I was shocked to see the lengths some of the riders had to go to, horses would be lunged for hours before they left home, lunged the same at the venue etc, in order to get those good dressage marks.
No matter how quick a learner a horse may be, to have to go to those extremes to win is an unecessary time waste, hence my desire to breed it out of our stock.
We bred a super horse at one point who would have been a fabulous competition horse had he not been unable to cope with the stress of comps. We sold him to a hunting home, and his dam too, as no way would I want anyone to have the heartbreak of seeing such talent be unusable (he actually went through two professional's yards afterwards, both of whom gave up like us)
It's so much easier to choose at least one half that is a trainable ride than end up with a horse no-one wants after all the expense involved.
Kimby sorry I know virtually nothing about bloodlines other than those I have used over the years, so can't help you there, but I'm sure more knowledgeable people than me on here can.
I agree some sharp horses learn quickly, but my description of hot is a horse who gets over excited in company or at comps not when being trained.
There is nothing quite so frustrating as a horse who will produce a sub 20 test at home only to blow it in public.
Having had my daughter working in the eventing/dressage worlds I was shocked to see the lengths some of the riders had to go to, horses would be lunged for hours before they left home, lunged the same at the venue etc, in order to get those good dressage marks.
No matter how quick a learner a horse may be, to have to go to those extremes to win is an unecessary time waste, hence my desire to breed it out of our stock.
We bred a super horse at one point who would have been a fabulous competition horse had he not been unable to cope with the stress of comps. We sold him to a hunting home, and his dam too, as no way would I want anyone to have the heartbreak of seeing such talent be unusable (he actually went through two professional's yards afterwards, both of whom gave up like us)
It's so much easier to choose at least one half that is a trainable ride than end up with a horse no-one wants after all the expense involved.
Kimby sorry I know virtually nothing about bloodlines other than those I have used over the years, so can't help you there, but I'm sure more knowledgeable people than me on here can.
druid
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
People said Cruising was hot and that his stock were unrideable. They're nothing of the sort.
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I wishthe Cruising's I've ridden were anything like the ones you've encountered - hot, buckers and spooky sums them up for me. I've ridden some of his best stallion sons too
People said Cruising was hot and that his stock were unrideable. They're nothing of the sort.
[/ QUOTE ]
I wishthe Cruising's I've ridden were anything like the ones you've encountered - hot, buckers and spooky sums them up for me. I've ridden some of his best stallion sons too
hettie123
Active Member
Just a query, but how much influence does genetics have on temperament? I had two mares out of the same laid back mare by the same laid back stallion. They were born a year apart and had the same owner. The first is an absolute fruit case and the second is so laid back. Can a stallion with a good temperament still throw a foal who is a little quirky? Sorry, getting the thread rather off topic!
Eothain
Well-Known Member
Yeah they're tricky but when you see the amount of them performing at the top level, they can't have temperaments that are so bad. Professionals horses? Yes. But breeding is all about aiming for the top and when most inevitably don't make it, having an outlet for them.
He has more horses than any other stallion every week in grand prixs in Ireland and he sired an Olympic eventing team gold medallist.
Lets not forget, he has relatively few foals for a horse of his age. He only has about 1200 registered foals.
They can't be as bad as people make out. Yes they are tricky but thats acceptable. The really bad ones are an exception imho.
Plus, he's the whole reason I got into this business. My family were steeped in horses for generations but Cruising made me want to get involved. Why?
Because simply put, He is the absolute very best of all time.
He has more horses than any other stallion every week in grand prixs in Ireland and he sired an Olympic eventing team gold medallist.
Lets not forget, he has relatively few foals for a horse of his age. He only has about 1200 registered foals.
They can't be as bad as people make out. Yes they are tricky but thats acceptable. The really bad ones are an exception imho.
Plus, he's the whole reason I got into this business. My family were steeped in horses for generations but Cruising made me want to get involved. Why?
Because simply put, He is the absolute very best of all time.
S_N
Well-Known Member
Eothian, you arguing perfectly in support of my argument regarding the stallion to whom this post pertains.
However, I think we will have to agree to disagree about breeding being all about aiming for the top. Such a small percentage of horses make that grade, that the ones that don't, need an alternative career.
However, I think we will have to agree to disagree about breeding being all about aiming for the top. Such a small percentage of horses make that grade, that the ones that don't, need an alternative career.
henryhorn
Well-Known Member
When we bought our original stallion, the dealer who imported him from Ireland had found him for a friend who had specifically asked him to find a bloodline that would produce jumpers. When she sold him she said few people recognised the line, but that she trusted the dealer absolutely.
His sire was Knock Boy, who sired Seacrest himself a Grade A, who sired Crusing.
We never took our chap that far because running several businesses took up most of our time, but he without doubt possessed a phenomenal jump and had several professionals clamouring to buy him more than once.
I would agree with the comment that line can be difficult to ride, now and then you get one that is excitable and in the hands of a numpty would be a nightmare, but all jump boldly and effortlessly which is why they do so well.
You only have to look at Cruising's stallion sons to see they are too producing talented youngsters, I always plough through the eventing results and there are loads of Cruising or relations always competing.
I can recognise them without being told too, they have a sort of "Look at me!" which catches your eye.
I asked one rider at an event who her horse was by as she rode past having suspected it was by Cruising, and her comment was that it was the sort of horse that made you weep and shout for joy, which is pretty typical I would say, they can be very frustrating but on days when they excell, boy do they give you a high...!
His sire was Knock Boy, who sired Seacrest himself a Grade A, who sired Crusing.
We never took our chap that far because running several businesses took up most of our time, but he without doubt possessed a phenomenal jump and had several professionals clamouring to buy him more than once.
I would agree with the comment that line can be difficult to ride, now and then you get one that is excitable and in the hands of a numpty would be a nightmare, but all jump boldly and effortlessly which is why they do so well.
You only have to look at Cruising's stallion sons to see they are too producing talented youngsters, I always plough through the eventing results and there are loads of Cruising or relations always competing.
I can recognise them without being told too, they have a sort of "Look at me!" which catches your eye.
I asked one rider at an event who her horse was by as she rode past having suspected it was by Cruising, and her comment was that it was the sort of horse that made you weep and shout for joy, which is pretty typical I would say, they can be very frustrating but on days when they excell, boy do they give you a high...!
Eothain
Well-Known Member
I am? Cool! Has this Grafenstolz horse covered many mares? How old is he?
Kimby, if you like the horse use him but be cautious. Turn the foal into money as soon as you can.
Is there a Sport Horse sales in Britain? If there is a foal sales, bring it there. That way if the foal becomes a problem, it'll be someone elses problem and you'll have your money. At this stage though it'll probably be spent on putting your Carpaccio mare in foal to Cruisings Micky Finn!!!
Kimby, if you like the horse use him but be cautious. Turn the foal into money as soon as you can.
Is there a Sport Horse sales in Britain? If there is a foal sales, bring it there. That way if the foal becomes a problem, it'll be someone elses problem and you'll have your money. At this stage though it'll probably be spent on putting your Carpaccio mare in foal to Cruisings Micky Finn!!!
Heidiham
Well-Known Member
Kimby I have 2 Grafenstolz babies. The oldest is rising 4 and backed and I couldn't be more pleased with her in temperament, trainability and correctness. Don't be put off. Go and see the stallion and make up your own mind
.
First prelim last Dec:
and a little more recently scoring a few 8s and a 9. We like a red rosette!
:
A little more here:
http://www.towerequine.co.uk/index.php/events/sponsorship.html
First prelim last Dec:
and a little more recently scoring a few 8s and a 9. We like a red rosette!
A little more here:
http://www.towerequine.co.uk/index.php/events/sponsorship.html
Alec Swan
...
henryhorn,
I'm not too sure how to do "quotes", but considering your last post, I'd be interested to hear who could argue with that!
Breeding horses is a complex business, and I suspect that those who lack experience rely on theory, and my following comment may well support that argument!
I really do think that he's some horse, and if his owner would agree to NFNF, then yes, I'd take the risk!
Alec.
I'm not too sure how to do "quotes", but considering your last post, I'd be interested to hear who could argue with that!
Breeding horses is a complex business, and I suspect that those who lack experience rely on theory, and my following comment may well support that argument!
I really do think that he's some horse, and if his owner would agree to NFNF, then yes, I'd take the risk!
Alec.
druid
Well-Known Member
I didn't say that the trickness wasn't acceptable, to a professional. You suggested they weren't hot - they most certainly are in general but a hot horse will react that that bit quicker in the ring which is useful.
As to Crusings Mickey Finn...I'd choose Ringfort Cruise for most mares unless they lacked quality if I wanted to use a Cruising son. MF doesn't have quite the same WB canter as Rf got from his Nimmedor dam line
As to Crusings Mickey Finn...I'd choose Ringfort Cruise for most mares unless they lacked quality if I wanted to use a Cruising son. MF doesn't have quite the same WB canter as Rf got from his Nimmedor dam line
Eothain
Well-Known Member
So would I. I just used Micky Finn as an example because he's in Britain whereas Ringfort is here. Hsving said that, I'd still use Micky Finn. I've a Duca Di Busted x Laughtons Flight mare due a candle lit dinner with him sometime!
As for the hotness, I wouldn't call it that. I prefer to call it 'character'
As for the hotness, I wouldn't call it that. I prefer to call it 'character'
magic104
Well-Known Member
The poor stallion does seem to be taking an awful lot of credit for temperment. A stallion produces a lot more offspring then the mare, therefore it seems a lot easier to blame the stallion for temperment issues. The genetic makeup comes from both parents & the foal spends his first 5mth at least with the dam. The dam might have a good even temper, but perhaps it is her ancestors that were hot or difficult.
When full siblings can be so different I think we need to look at the individuals & the breeding of them rather then just say that stallion's offspring have difficult temperments. I am not saying the trait is never from the sire, just think it is too easy to always blame them. I remember a show jumper back in the 70's making a comment about KOD's offspring being a challenge at times, but very talented. No one seemed to look at the dams breeding.
When full siblings can be so different I think we need to look at the individuals & the breeding of them rather then just say that stallion's offspring have difficult temperments. I am not saying the trait is never from the sire, just think it is too easy to always blame them. I remember a show jumper back in the 70's making a comment about KOD's offspring being a challenge at times, but very talented. No one seemed to look at the dams breeding.
druid
Well-Known Member
Character.....I like the PR use there!
Baydale
Well-Known Member
Straying somewhat from the OP, all this assumes that those hot/sharp offspring have been meticulously and thoughtfully produced by sympathetic, educated riders. Nature or nurture?
We've got a mare in foal to Graf. I visited him at Twemlows and he was lovely in the stable, even though it was teatime. I also saw him at Bramham where he looked fresh, but it's not that long ago that he was eventing so maybe he was hoping that was what he was there for!
If our Graf foal doesn't turn out to be the competition horse that I'd like for myself, I feel confident that I will be able to find it a suitable home. Sometimes the black and white attitude in this part of the forum can appear rather patronising to small/hobby breeders like myself.
We've got a mare in foal to Graf. I visited him at Twemlows and he was lovely in the stable, even though it was teatime. I also saw him at Bramham where he looked fresh, but it's not that long ago that he was eventing so maybe he was hoping that was what he was there for!
If our Graf foal doesn't turn out to be the competition horse that I'd like for myself, I feel confident that I will be able to find it a suitable home. Sometimes the black and white attitude in this part of the forum can appear rather patronising to small/hobby breeders like myself.
henryhorn
Well-Known Member
In reply to your observation Magic having been able to observe many foals to five years old I think foal's character's are born not made. The actual behaviour of their dam seems to have nothing whatsoever to do with how they behave , though the dam's own temperament seems to pass on regardless of which stallion is used.
We tend to breed the same mares to the same stallion and two of the mares are full sisters, so it's interesting to see how different characteristics pass on.
One of the sister's offspring are always more laid back than the others, exhibiting exactly the same traits time and time again in each new foal.
Over the years we have bred the sisters to four different stallions, and all that happens is with a "hot" stallion the foal's from the sharper mare get hotter, and with a calm stallion the ones from the calmer sister get calmer.
So I agree the mare line has a great deal to do with things, and the stallion just emphasises traits already there.
As I said above, for our purposes we chose a calm stallion, as being "laid back" about everything from training to behaviour at comps is what most people prefer.
Which is why I said originally, choosing anything with a hot reputation is not my own choice, though judging from the pics above of the lovely youngster, this particular stallion hasn't appeared to pass anything hot on in this case.
We tend to breed the same mares to the same stallion and two of the mares are full sisters, so it's interesting to see how different characteristics pass on.
One of the sister's offspring are always more laid back than the others, exhibiting exactly the same traits time and time again in each new foal.
Over the years we have bred the sisters to four different stallions, and all that happens is with a "hot" stallion the foal's from the sharper mare get hotter, and with a calm stallion the ones from the calmer sister get calmer.
So I agree the mare line has a great deal to do with things, and the stallion just emphasises traits already there.
As I said above, for our purposes we chose a calm stallion, as being "laid back" about everything from training to behaviour at comps is what most people prefer.
Which is why I said originally, choosing anything with a hot reputation is not my own choice, though judging from the pics above of the lovely youngster, this particular stallion hasn't appeared to pass anything hot on in this case.