GRAFENSTOLZ

Regarding Grafenstolz's conformation: Hilarious! I'm sure the 13 studbooks in Europe who have approved Grafenstolz, including the Hanoverians, the University of Munich, not to mention the 800+ breeders worldwide who have used him are grateful to Diggory for having spotted the "twist in his forelimb and his dreadfully collapsed feet", all of which they have apparently missed! Thank goodness for your eagle eyesight and expert opinion. I'm sure the owner will have him put down asap!!!
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alec, the breeing terms last year were live foal guarantee, i think this is more than reasonable, i assume although i will hold my hands up and say i do not know for definite that the same will be offered this season.
 
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Regarding Grafenstolz..... the 800+ breeders worldwide who have used him

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Thank you for this! I had forgotten the numbers thrown around about how many people had used him - so I repeat - where are these youngsters?
 
I have to say that I have only met Graf on one occassion, he was in a lorry park with other horses in a head collar on a long lead eating grass, while dogs ran round his feet and people patted him. He seemed to have a wonderful nature and was very relaxed given the circumstances......

He then went into the lorry and stood quietly munching his hay!

Obviously he is not always going to be this laid back.... however from a competition horse and a stallion I would expect some spirit occassionally as surely it is this that we can then tap into if trained correctly that enabled him to perform well Eventing and now at PSG level in dressage.

We also don't know the circumstances prior to the lunging instance that henryhorn refers to. We ask a LOT of stallions, not only have they to perform at the highest level, but those that are breeding often end up perhaps not getting the turn out they would otherwise do. One minute we are asking them to cover, next to perform at the highest level and in the mean time they might be spending much of there time in a stable or on a lorry.

I would be really surprised if a stallion wasn't a little hot headed in the circumstances.....

I appreciate that different people are going to have different views and be lookingfor different things from a stallion. The wonderful thing is there are so many different stallions to choose from, that really is there any need to slate a very talented stallion such as Graf just becuase it's not what you are looking for.
 
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Regarding Grafenstolz's conformation: Hilarious! I'm sure the 13 studbooks in Europe who have approved Grafenstolz, including the Hanoverians, the University of Munich, not to mention the 800+ breeders worldwide who have used him are grateful to Diggory for having spotted the "twist in his forelimb and his dreadfully collapsed feet", all of which they have apparently missed! Thank goodness for your eagle eyesight and expert opinion. I'm sure the owner will have him put down asap!!!
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No, not hilarious at all, Harriet, just as it was seen on the day. I can't take any credit for spotting the problems as they presented themselves that day at all, as I happened to be with a top international judge, grader and evaluator at the time and they noticed them first. But then, Harriet, as you feel you know far more than me, then perhaps you know far more than them as well. I did say that I thought the feet issues may have been related to poor farriery after all, but as I'm not a farrier, perhaps I'm not allowed to make such suppositions?

What is actually more amusing is that you appear to have joined solely with the intention of replying to this thread, with all those statistics ready to spout. It's quite obvious who you really are, and your unceasing arrogance is so very entertaining. Keep it up, because those of us who know the true you will keep coming back at you!
 
In reply to your observation Magic having been able to observe many foals to five years old I think foal's character's are born not made. - Now thats interesting because I read a study that said foals born to alpha mares tended to be bolder & more assertive.

The foal is still two genetic make up of its parents therefore "foal's character's are born not made" will be made from both genes. All I am saying is the mare should be looked at as well. For one thing if she shares in her breeding a particular horse she will therefore pass on more genes from that line. There is an interesting article in H&R called Pedigree chums written by Dr Glynis Scot.
 
A Colleague in Switzerland has been doing embryo transfer for over 15 years, using embryo's from his top **** jumping mares, when he first became involved with embryo transfer the assumption would be to use "Franches Montagnes" brood mares as surrogates, hardy, good dooers that have high milk yeild etc, however they observed that the foals were often too complacent in character and lacked the boldness energy and general outlook in life that is required to produce successful high acheiving sport horses.

They now only use warmblood mares especially selected with the specific temepraments and characteristics that they wish to replicate. I don't know if there is any statistical evidence to support his theory but would certainly make an interesting study. This certainly supports the arguement that the mare strongly infuences the foals character and temperament during primary socialisation regardless of the inate characteristics that it may have inherited from its parents, male and female. It is also evident that all animals will be influenced during secondary socialisation, it will learn from its peer group and later on in life when it enters training.

We have for example one mare who is an "aloof" alpha mare whom we bred as a maiden, her first foal was, flightly, spirited, and not the easiest easy to work with. From the same combination of mating the following year we made a deliberate effort in getting in around her foal from birth with additional and persistant handling, she showed signs from the moment she was born of being "little miss independant" but by weaning she was very compliant in everything that we asked of her. This now gives me the confidence to use any stallion regardless of a "reputation" of being hot or difficult if all his other attributes tick the right boxes.

Jazz for example has a reputation for being hot headed, but in his stallion test report states [ QUOTE ]
likes to look at everything. Very willing to work and works well.

[/ QUOTE ] We may find that his progeny inherit his characteristics but at the same time he has produced horses such as Parcival, Johnson, Wynton, Olivi and Riant all of whom are proving to have good rideability and a willing work ethic suitable for upper level sport. Cornet Obolenski and Clinton are another example of a line that is renown for hot headedness however their descendants acheivements are out weighing any negative critisism that they have received.

Hotness" is IMO often misinterpreted, an intellegent horse is often a horse that only becomes a problem when in the hands of the inexperienced as they are all too often fast learners and establish what they can do and get away with just as quickly as they learn compliance and conformism. An intellegent horse in the hands of the inexperienced is all too often a recipe for disaster but in the right hands may go all the way.

Bearing this in mind Grafenstolz is proving to be a very popluar choice with mare owners in France having read several discussions about him, interestingly the posts about him all speak of his positive attributes and from those that do have foals by him all seem to speak very highly of them. One poster innocently posted is it me or does he appear to produce foals that lack top line and everyone repsonded its just you. It made me smile...... In addition to the comments that he has been approved by nearly every stud book in Europe, Yancey Farms will be distributing his semen in the US and for those that aren't aware of their status, they only stock and sell high profile stallions whom ascertain a strong position in the market place.

Bearing in mind that the Trakehner is a blood type horse with a reputation of easy trainability that is widely used to refine and add stamina it seems logical that he will be a popular choice for event hunter jumper and breeders looking to add more blood into their program.

Look forwards to seeing this years foal crop by him, a beautiful blood type stallion with little to dislike about him.
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I wish the rest of the British Isles agreed with your comment that[ QUOTE ]
the Trakehner is a blood type horse with a reputation of easy trainability

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as most people in this country seem to think they are all lunatics much like the chestnut mare syndrome.

Cornet Obolensky is one of my favourite stallions but it is well known in Germany that you just dont see his offspring in the hands of amateurs, they are Pro rides, as are Jazz offspring.

Its something breders have to factor in, if you are breeding for the pro market or the amateur market, or if you want to breed to a stallion known to through a 'professionals horse' then pick the mare even more carefully.

With reagrd to Grafenstolz, I would say he crosses better onto non-Trakehner bigger mares as the pure Trakehner offspring I have seen from him disappointed me (and that includes ones selected for Neumunster) so I would assume he needs a good big hunter mare, say like heidiham's mare.
 
Magic, you arguing a point that no one is disagreeing with. - SN am I missing another point here because as far as Im concerned there was no arguing going on??? A point was made, a point was answered nothing more nothing less. Dont go looking for something that is not there.
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Magic, you arguing a point that no one is disagreeing with. - SN am I missing another point here because as far as Im concerned there was no arguing going on??? A point was made, a point was answered nothing more nothing less. Dont go looking for something that is not there.
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My point being that you seem to be repeating yourself, hence why I said that no one was arguing with your point about what the mare brings to the equation.
 
In reply to your observation Magic having been able to observe many foals to five years old I think foal's character's are born not made. - Now thats interesting because I read a study that said foals born to alpha mares tended to be bolder & more assertive.

The foal is still two genetic make up of its parents therefore "foal's character's are born not made" will be made from both genes. All I am saying is the mare should be looked at as well. For one thing if she shares in her breeding a particular horse she will therefore pass on more genes from that line. There is an interesting article in H&R called Pedigree chums written by Dr Glynis Scot.

Oh really, I thought I was answering the points made, as per the line - In reply to your observation Magic - My mistake obviously!
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Hi-jacking the post a little;

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alec, the breeing terms last year were live foal guarantee, i think this is more than reasonable

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Given that a live foal is something that you absolutely CANNOT guarantee, what do studs offering these terms mean by this?

If the mare doesn't take, or aborts, then I suppose you can try again? (Which is surely "no foal free return").

If she cannot take, or dies, or the stallion proves infertile and no foal ensues, I suppose you don't pay? (Which is "no foal no fee".)

Or are you obliged to accept another stallion or provide another mare? (Which is a nuisance and probably not what you signed up for).

As for Graf; despite his good qualities, to my eye he has very long cannons and seems to pass this conformation on to a proportion of his offspring. I feel this is a fault and a weakness and it does put me off, given that he is aimed at the eventing market which demands soundness and toughness.
 
James,

you've rather reinforced my point.

Regarding the stallion in question, or any stallion of our choice, for that matter, it's continually being argued, and quite rightly in my opinion, by the more experienced that mare selection is vital.

It seems to me that when the progeny of a stallion have achieved awards, then those accolades are claimed by the stallion owner. When that same horse has those youngsters which fail to achieve their hoped for status, then that was because of poor, or inappropriate mare selection!

For stallions, it seems to be win win, with little or no mention of the mare. Whilst I wouldn't be so silly as to suggest that the stallion choice is an irrelevance, I'm certain that we still attach an unbalanced level of emphasis in our plans.

Flying in the face of my argument, I would still give the horse serious consideration. His conformation faults? I don't have an eye which is well enough practised, but are we breeding show horses? His faults haven't prevented him from having a competition career, which those connected to him take a great deal of pride in, and perhaps rightly so.

My one nagging doubt, is that as a 12 year old horse, I have yet to see what his progeny have achieved.

Alec.
 
My one nagging doubt, is that as a 12 year old horse - What would you expect his eldest to be doing if for instance he covered at 2? Though it does sound quiet on that front, but then not all horses breeding is available when looking at competition results.
 
But I would have thought that his owner, who is certainly not backwards in coming forwards, would have all of those statistics on hand to post on any thread that contained this horses name.

So what have his progeny been doing???

It's a simple question.
 
Taken from his website;-

Performances and Results offspring:
Many of his off-spring from his first crop of foals were awarded premiums in various breeding areas. With an average score of 8.2 for his first crop, he ranked number one of all stallions in Baden-Württemberg. The Baden-Württemberg Verband awarded him a premium as a young stallion. Throughout his career he his foal and young stock have received an above average number of premiums. His oldest offspring are now seven, he has already had a German Vice Champion, and this year Vincent and Gin Tonic will go to the World Championships at Le Lion d’Angers
 
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but are we breeding show horses? His faults haven't prevented him from having a competition career,

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Well, we could be; he is a stallion with "presence" and a nice shoulder, neck and head carriage, which always helps.

However, I am not personally aiming for something to show, which is why I would be particularly concerned about the long cannons. This is a durability issue, rather than an aesthetic one as long cannons predispose toward tendon injuries.

Yes, he did have an eventing career; but it was curtailed by injury; so its hard to know if this is a positive or a negative.
 
Vincent and Gin Tonic will go to the World Championships at Le Lion d’Angers - I think what people are getting at is that these are 2 out of how many hundred bred? But if his eldest are only 7 I would have thought it could be early days to be dismissing him as a stallion not producing performance offspring.
 
My original post has started quite a debate which i have read each day with interest and it is good to get different opinions you can learn a lot. I thought Heidihams youngsters are very smart looking and doing well in the dressage so he is certainly worth looking at. It is a shame i cannot get to the Expo this weekend but those who do go i am sure will have something to say about the good the bad and the ugly !
 
I have read a number of Live Foal Guarantees terms and they differ. Seems to be try as often as you like over a couple of seasons and even if the mare aborts at birth in the first season you can have another go.
I don't see why everybody gets SO excited about the headline terms. What I do is choose a stallion, speak to the owners, ask them for the terms I want and then negotiate. We all do that in other areas of our lives like buying a car. Would you buy a cheap one just because it gave you the most fantastic deal. I will not choose a stallion purely on the terms.
It sounds as if we all want "Live foal or your money back", which by the way I don't think is the same as NFNF as the NFNF terms I have seen do not give you unlimited attempts. but I do not expect the stallion owners to do something for nothing so I don't expect to pay them nothing if I don't get a foal. I do think the term Live Foal Guarantee is misleading but you can't blame studs saying that if it is standard language.
Some of the big European studs have terms which I think are unfair to we mare owners but that doent stop us using them. You pays your money and make your choice.
 
duchess69,

whilst it's difficult to be precise on this point, generally, NFNF means that there will be a retention of the stud fee by the stallion owner, usually about 25%, in the event that the mare fails to produce a live foal. NFNF means that you are given every opportunity, for the initial year, and so I understand, the end of that year (season) is the cut off date. It would be quite unfair, I believe, for a mare owner to expect the stud fee, in total, to be returned. Stallion owners, after all, have their costs.

Our farrier had an in foal Danehill mare, which whilst in foal, had to be put down. The stallion owners, to their credit, generously returned his stud fee, in total. I realise that this was an exceptional case.

NFFR, again generally, means that if your mare fails to hold, then you can go back to them next year. Some put a limit on just how many years, or mares for that matter, as to how far you can extend this.

It would be unreasonable to expect stallion owners to carry the risk, in its entirety. That must be obvious to all.

For myself, and I suspect that I'm not alone in this, if I were to send a known breeding mare to a stud, and importantly, she is a mare which has been checked by a competent vet who is experienced in the field of equine reproduction, and then she STILL comes home empty, I feel that stallion owners should accept some degree of responsibility. For me that responsibility would equate to returning 75% of the stud fee. NFFR in reality means, that the stallion owner receives the stud fee, in its entirety, whether the mare's in foal or not. Hardly an incentive for the less than scrupulous, is it? If I were to present a mare to a stud which has little chance of holding to a covering, then I only have myself to blame.

Never again will I agree to NFFR.

jamesmeade, I accept that long cannon bones may well raise a doubt or two, for your well reasoned arguments, but it still wouldn't put me off, but that's probably just me being perverse!

If the horse in question, is now 12 years old, and his oldest offspring are now 7, and assuming that he demonstrated enough promise as a youngster to keep him entire, then I would be surprised to hear that he didn't cover a mare until he was 5 years of age. It is of course, entirely possible. There are, without doubt, questions.

There are many owners of very good mares who've used the horse. I would strongly suspect that the resistance to the horse himself, is actually directed at the owner, and that is very sad. Given that I had a mare which would be suited by him, then yes, without any doubt.

Alec.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Our farrier had an in foal Danehill mare, which whilst in foal, had to be put down. The stallion owners, to their credit, generously returned his stud fee, in total. I realise that this was an exceptional case.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not unusual in the TB world!!
 
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I would strongly suspect that the resistance to the horse himself, is actually directed at the owner, and that is very sad.

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If the owner's behaviour re. the expo figures is a measure of the trust that can be placed in his sales pitch and statistics, then I think that a questioning of the horse's true value as a breeding animal is not surprising; if you don't trust what you are told because you don't trust the person telling you, then you are starting from scratch; you are looking for evidence that you CAN believe. The trouble with Graf is that the evidence is so contradictory; he is an attractive horse with question-marks. Trust is also an issue when it comes to the logistics of doing business, of course.

However, speaking for myself, and with all due respect to those people who do like and have used him, I think that Graf has long cannons and they would STILL be long cannons even if YOU owned him, Alec; and I STILL would not like them!

Perhaps I should be grateful that I don't, therefore, even have to consider whether or not I can bear to do business with his owner!
 
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