GRAND NATIONAL 2013

Horselover39 said:
The rumour was that it was P. Boddy of Todmorden that collected them. Is this still the fact or would it be Turners.
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P Boddy acted as a knackerman and as an abattoir. So in his capacity as knackerman he would uplift carcasses from the racecourse.

Mostly the racecourses use their local knackerman to uplift. The reason that JHJ was found out is because the Bush vet hospital routinely takes and examines the limbs of horses that have suffered catastrophic limb injuries at Musselburgh, and studies them.
 
EKW said:
As a complete turn around of the current argument for better times:

My ginger square Tap Night has just come 2nd to Captain Conan at Aintree in the Novices Chase :D :D :D Cracking run, only slightly miffed as we beat CC at Kelso last year but hey ho! Rock On The Tap Night!!!
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Congrats EKW!
 
EKW said:
As a complete turn around of the current argument for better times:

My ginger square Tap Night has just come 2nd to Captain Conan at Aintree in the Novices Chase :D :D :D Cracking run, only slightly miffed as we beat CC at Kelso last year but hey ho! Rock On The Tap Night!!!
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Great run - he stayed so well - up in trip again? :D:p!!!
 
Caledonia said:
Great run - he stayed so well - up in trip again? :D:p!!!
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National horse in the making?!?

In all seriousness the day I met him I couldn't stop laughing! The previous horse that Jane had sent us from America was a stunningly pretty grey with supermodel legs! We picked Tap up from Ayr in January in a stableyard full of stripped, clipped racefit horses and there, in the corner travellers box was quite literally a ginger square! He was so fat you could barely tell his head from his back end, his coat could rival a shetlands and his mane was just wild! He's stripped down well :D
 
For those old enough to remember Wide Awake,he had a heart attack and died during his lap of honor having just won Badminton. The reaction was nothing but sympathy for Lucinda Green and not an immediate call for Badminton to be abolished as being too much of a strain/dangerous for horses. When it's NH there seems very little sympathy for connections, double standards? which I fail to understand.RIP Battlefront.
 
EKW said:
National horse in the making?!?

In all seriousness the day I met him I couldn't stop laughing! The previous horse that Jane had sent us from America was a stunningly pretty grey with supermodel legs! We picked Tap up from Ayr in January in a stableyard full of stripped, clipped racefit horses and there, in the corner travellers box was quite literally a ginger square! He was so fat you could barely tell his head from his back end, his coat could rival a shetlands and his mane was just wild! He's stripped down well :D
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LOL - he jumped great! Will be interesting to see what AP feeds back! Great job by the yard! :D
 
fburton said:
Well either it is or it isn't, and presumably this is known?! I thought it was a reasonable question. Your rudeness was totally uncalled for. :(
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The tone of your question was objectionable, nothing is black and white with horse's hearts they can literally drop dead standing in the stable or field, the reason we think/assume it's more common in races is because we are all watching, we don't find out how many horses have dropped dead in the stable or field today, I would suggest it would be the same if not more than those who died at exercise today.
 
Caledonia said:
Why would it be so black and white in horses when it isn't in people? It's a poor attempt on your part to insinuate fault in the race.
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With respect, Caledonia, that's a load of rubbish! I wasn't trying to insinuate fault in the race at all. What I was (and am still) trying to find out is the additional risk to horses of heart attack (if any) associated with running in races in general. Is that such an unreasonable request? :confused:

Of course it's not black and white - I would never expect it to be. What I would expect is that extreme exertion increases the risk of heart attacks.
 
Baggybreeches said:
The tone of your question was objectionable, nothing is black and white with horse's hearts they can literally drop dead standing in the stable or field, the reason we think/assume it's more common in races is because we are all watching, we don't find out how many horses have dropped dead in the stable or field today, I would suggest it would be the same if not more than those who died at exercise today.
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Good grief! That is precisely what I am trying to ascertain. You may interpret my 'tone' any way you like, but even if you find what I write irritating (as I am sure we all do with some of this forum's posts) is it really necessary to stoop to name-calling?
 
Congrats EKW :D

As for 'Could quite easily happen on the gallops at home or in the yard TEAPOT get Real!!!!!'

I am being real, very real. A horse can have a heart attack anywhere. Here's one such example: http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/397/271231.html

You cannot lay all the blame on a race and a racecourse.


This weekend could be rather testing on this forum I feel...
 
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fburton said:
With respect, Caledonia, that's a load of rubbish! I wasn't trying to insinuate fault in the race at all. What I was (and am still) trying to find out is the additional risk to horses of heart attack (if any) associated with running in races in general. Is that such an unreasonable request? :confused:

Of course it's not black and white - I would never expect it to be. What I would expect is that extreme exertion increases the risk of heart attacks.
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interesting, what about applying the same theory to unfit over weight horses, who are pulled out of a field and suddenly worked? do they have greater chance of suffering a heart attack? or is it just racing that you are interested in?
 
fburton said:
With respect, Caledonia, that's a load of rubbish! I wasn't trying to insinuate fault in the race at all. What I was (and am still) trying to find out is the additional risk to horses of heart attack (if any) associated with running in races in general. Is that such an unreasonable request? :confused:

Of course it's not black and white - I would never expect it to be. What I would expect is that extreme exertion increases the risk of heart attacks.
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Nope, not rubbish. You're not nearly as clever as you think you are by pretending your posts are innocent questions when every time racing is mentioned you make a poor fist of inferring racing is at fault.

And you are the one that said Well either it is or it isn't, and presumably this is known?!. That's the same as saying black or white.
 
Caledonia said:
Nope, not rubbish. You're not nearly as clever as you think you are by pretending your posts are innocent questions when every time racing is mentioned you make a poor fist of inferring racing is at fault.
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Oh... whatever! :rolleyes: You've obviously made up your mind about my motives - I'm not going to convince you otherwise (and why should I anyway?).

I've never hidden the fact that there are aspects of racing which I dislike. Also, I'm liable to question any statement I think is false or inaccurate whether it's to do with racing or anything else - e.g. that horses running in races has nothing to do with the flight instinct (I believe it was you who said that). Finally, if you were to examine what I've written on the subject of the Grand National, you would see me agreeing with statements like "I don't want to see the National banned, but I don't think that these deaths should be shrugged off as part and parcel of racing either. We need to find out exactly what were the factors that resulted in this horses falling and dying and use that knowledge to try and improve the race in future."

And you are the one that said Well either it is or it isn't, and presumably this is known?!. That's the same as saying black or white.
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You misunderstood - I meant either heart attacks are more likely during exertion or they aren't. You said they aren't; bonny said they are. It has to be one or the other - it can't be both! 'Black and white' would be if heart attacks only occurred during extreme exertion and never at any other time, and I certainly don't believe that.
 
Dab said:
interesting, what about applying the same theory to unfit over weight horses, who are pulled out of a field and suddenly worked? do they have greater chance of suffering a heart attack? or is it just racing that you are interested in?
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It wouldn't surprise me in the least if unfit, overweight horses were more prone to heart attacks. And no, it's not just racing I'm interested in - but that's what this thread is about.
 
fburton said:
With respect, Caledonia, that's a load of rubbish! I wasn't trying to insinuate fault in the race at all. What I was (and am still) trying to find out is the additional risk to horses of heart attack (if any) associated with running in races in general. Is that such an unreasonable request? :confused:

Of course it's not black and white - I would never expect it to be. What I would expect is that extreme exertion increases the risk of heart attacks.
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fburton said:
It wouldn't surprise me in the least if unfit, overweight horses were more prone to heart attacks. And no, it's not just racing I'm interested in - but that's what this thread is about.
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this thread might be about racing (GN) but you said you were trying to find out if there was additional risk to horses of heart attack associated with running in races there by you would need to consider all aspects other than just racing to ascertain if there was an associated additional risk :rolleyes:
 
Horses don't have heart attacks like people do.....so being unfit or overweight does not make them more likely to have one.....it seems to happen with excertion, usually at the end of a race .....
 
bonny said:
Horses don't have heart attacks like people do.....so being unfit or overweight does not make them more likely to have one.....it seems to happen with excertion, usually at the end of a race .....
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HI Bonny, can you explain further what you mean that horses dont suffer heart attacks like people? in what way?

are you saying that a fat and unfit horse that was exerted is just equally unlikely to suffer a heart attack as a horse that is fit and not over weight?
 
Dab said:
HI Bonny, can you explain further what you mean that horses dont suffer heart attacks like people? in what way?

are you saying that a fat and unfit horse that was exerted is just equally unlikely to suffer a heart attack as a horse that is fit and not over weight?
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Horse's don't have heart attacks....they can suffer a major burst of a blood vessel which is always fatal. In all bar one of the horses that I've known it was at the end of a race, doesn't mean it can't happen in a stable or whatever but personally I've never known that happen.
 
Very sorry to hear of the loss of Battlefront, but it annoys the hell out of me that people are making such as fuss of it simply because it's Aintree and it's the National meeting. Look at what all of the papers are focusing on-this, instead of some of the great racing we had today.
Supposing a horse had had a heart attack at, say, Lingfield AW last week, would anyone much care? Would the course and the circumstances be scrutinised by press and public? No. It's ridiculous.
I'm still saddened by it, as I am with every casualty, but the press are making too much of a thing about it.
 
It's Tartan Snow and wee Jaimie I feel for. He had his first ride over the National fences and won at 100/1 - normally that would be the main story but instead the main focus is on the death of Battlefront.
 
Personally I would equate what happened to Battlefront today with what frequently happens at eg the London Marathon when a perfectly fit and healthy young runner suddenly collapses without any prior warning.

If you check Battlefronts career, he was not raced before 5 yo and had won a whole string of Open Point to Points last year which are often run in 'more natural ground conditions'' than a properly prepared racecourse.

Clearly a horse who really enjoyed his job.

RIP Battlefront your family will miss you greatly.
 
bonny said:
Horses don't have heart attacks like people do.....so being unfit or overweight does not make them more likely to have one.....it seems to happen with excertion, usually at the end of a race .....
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I'm sorry but I think that this is nonsense. I have been on a horse which ruptured and he dropped like a stone.

I have also seen two horses have heart attacks and they staggered and kicked and were quite obviously alive and in considerable pain and distress for a long time before dying.
 
happyhunter123 said:
Very sorry to hear of the loss of Battlefront, but it annoys the hell out of me that people are making such as fuss of it simply because it's Aintree and it's the National meeting. Look at what all of the papers are focusing on-this, instead of some of the great racing we had today.
Supposing a horse had had a heart attack at, say, Lingfield AW last week, would anyone much care? Would the course and the circumstances be scrutinised by press and public? No. It's ridiculous.
I'm still saddened by it, as I am with every casualty, but the press are making too much of a thing about it.
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That's exactly the point I made in my post. The minute I heard there had been a fatality over The National Fences, I had a little bet with myself (about the only bet I've ever won!) that the sad fact would be the main topic of today's racing. As an example Do it for Dalkey had a heart attack and died recently after winning a race. Was this fact splattered all over the press? NO. As I said before apart from sympathy; was there a huge uproar when Lucinda Green's Wide Awake collapsed and died during his lap of honor after winning Badminton? NO. I had a pony (aged 18 fit, NOT FAT and healthy) die over night in our field from a heart attack.

The National is an easy target BECAUSE it is the public eye. If any of you have ever evented at a reasobably high level you will know only too well that many horses get hurt (failed trot up/ not presented) but these incidents aren't headline news so eventing's image isn't tarnished. All horse fatalities/ injuries are regrettable, I just struggle with the hipocrisy.
 
I also agree that the death of this horse today was not primarily caused by it being in an NH race at the time. It really is just one of those things that happen to horses of all ages from time to time.
 
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