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MotherOfChickens

MotherOfChickens

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There's a vid on FB showing dogs in 27C heat, in bright sunshine jumping through successive, smallish hoops of fire. Allegedly the dogs have already been jumping in that heat for 20mins. The dogs are part of a display team that I will not name on here. At least one dog is reluctant and most of them are panting heavily (unsurprisingly).

thoughts?
 
I'd like to think the handlers would assess their own dogs capability and pull them if they were suffering in the heat.
Some handle it better than others - I know a lot of dogs who won't work in the rain.

I know last night none of the dogs at training were out for
more than two or three ten minute bursts, and even then they were really blowing and we didn't start til tea time so it was cooler. Plus the hosepipe was well utilised!

I haven't been walking my own dog until after 8pm as we have to go on paths that were still too hot to touch in the late afternoon.

I'm all for building resistance to extreme temperatures but I hate seeing overweight, unfit, ungroomed dogs being dragged around hot surfaces. Or worse, coated dogs that have been shaved and have no protection :(

I was following a Championships in Austria a couple of weeks ago and around 50% of the dogs failed tracking and that was put down to the heat. Interestingly the best track was from a dog who lives in Texas.
A lot of the dogs looked very sluggish in obedience too, even some of the bigger names.

I've also seen competitions staggered where they do everything very early or in the evening if the temperature is going to be very high.
 
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we've not been getting the temps you guys have but its kinda relative in that its the temps they are used to. yesterday was overcast, only 20C but very humid-both of my dogs drank loads more than normal during the day. last night we had scentwork and both were feeling it and both sessions had plenty of rest breaks. I am lucky and live near alot of forest-if I can stand the bugs its always damp underfoot with lots of burns about-we had a stack load of rain last week so there's plenty of water about now. Monday was hot-my pair got to play in the garden with the hose and the paddling pool and thats it.

I am not sure I would ask any dog of mine to jump through a hoop of fire because I dont see the need for that sort of trick tbh (these are somewhat smaller than I've seen before in police dog displays) and I definitely wouldnt expect to do it in that sort of heat. I know its tricky when you have a booking but maybe have a water display as a contingency!
 
My fluffy (and he is quite fluffy being a mix of a long-haired and a curly-haired breed, I've only shaved his tummy and for hygiene more than anything) isn't enjoying the heat much.

However he has, of his own accord but becasue he usually gets lots of praise for it and it is fun, jumped onto little 'agility' style platforms that we pass on our walks. He is also continuing with his indoor trick training.

I haven't seen the video and don't know the dogs in question but can say mine has certainly been completing some (albeit less impressive) feats himself without being in distress. I'd expect owners to be making sensible calls (e.g. toning down any 'racing' elements to the agility shows), making sure the dogs rest in shade between events etc but not cutting out exercise altogether.

The fire aspect of things doesn't seem particularly relevant to the heat welfare aspect as the flames will be the same temperature in snow and anyway the dogs dont; spend any significant time near the flames.
 
GirlFriday said:
The fire aspect of things doesn't seem particularly relevant to the heat welfare aspect as the flames will be the same temperature in snow and anyway the dogs dont; spend any significant time near the flames.
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I'm not sure I entirely agree (I agree the flames would be the same temp ;)) but this is a line (5, maybe 6) of hoops and at the start at least, the flames are well, flamey in a breeze-with a surrounding temp that is already hot it must feel much hotter going through the line than if the line were in snow. when you are already hot-you dont want to get hotter?

I have one dog who will happily stay out of the heat and not do much, the other would just keep going and I have to keep an eye on him. I would not be asking a dog of mine (if true) to jump for 20mins and then jump for another ten, through fire.
 
I suspect it depends to a certain extent what they did afterwards with them, the same with anyone eventing etc this last weekend.
 
Failed to find the video with a quick google but would def not want to be the guy dressed as George (and his Dragon!) in this weather.

Seriously though... how sure are you on the timings OP? I means does _each dog_ really jump for 20 minutes? Or is it more of a relay style event? I've never seen the flaming hoops going on for more than 4 hoops or so each dog and then perhaps back the other way again/coordinated with another dog. Different display teams mind.
 
I'm not sure of the timings no, hence me not posting the link, naming names and using the word allegedly. I just wondered what others thought of it.

I also think horses are better able to cope with high temps than dogs.
 
I wasn't suggesting that horses coped the same as dogs, just that management does make a difference as they are both coolable if that makes sense.
 
MotherOfChickens said:
I'm not sure of the timings no, hence me not posting the link, naming names and using the word allegedly. I just wondered what others thought of it.

I also think horses are better able to cope with high temps than dogs.
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I think as horses can sweat copiously they can regulate their bodies better, as long as they are rehydrated quickly - the horses at Ascot were drinking immediately on pulling up. Dogs I think can only lose heat through panting and sweat through their paws only?
 
ester said:
I wasn't suggesting that horses coped the same as dogs, just that management does make a difference as they are both coolable if that makes sense.
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yes-although I'm inclined to think (and maybe someone veterinary could comment?) that once the dogs are a certain temp, they are already in danger.

as an example of management, canicross is kind of winding up right now for summer but those that do run where possible make sure their dogs are damp/wet (belly and legs) before they start and have very regular dunking stops, much shortened runs (we are then made to run by ourselves while the dogs watch and laugh/get embarassed). I mean this is Scotland, we nearly always have water ;) and running trails are earth/grass and in woodland.

As an aside, I love a hairy mutt, so I've only had two short haired dogs. Both short haired dogs have been the worst for not looking after themselves in the heat-almost like they couldnt feel they were getting too hot (one was black, one was sable fwiw). The longer haired/double coated dogs seem able to tell earlier to go and take it easy. except Quarrie, and then I think he knows he's hot, he just doesnt want to miss out on anything!
 
I should think the dogs are well managed and looked after, otherwise they'd be ill quite quickly. Those shows also have a vet on hand who'd sharp be on the handlers' case if any dog wasn't happy.

One of my dogs won't go out in the rain, one won't walk on concrete, one likes to run round like a loon in the heat, and one is the same no matter what the conditions, i.e. active and alert. They're all managed as per their individual needs.
 
Statement issued by the team. Two sides to every story -

Due to organised allegations’ of abuse along with threats being posted onto Social Media networks and received
personally by team members, Paws for Thought Dog Display Team feel the need to issue this statement.
We cannot go into details concerning the allegations being spread as the information has been handed over to
the teams Solicitor and the Police for investigation, we do not wish to interfere with these investigations.
We can say however, that all dogs in the display team are first and foremost pets, a number of which having
been rescued from horrendous situations and would have been euthanized without intervention.
The health and wellbeing of all the dogs is of paramount importance to team members as all the dogs are much
loved pets. They live as family members and no expense is spared on their health either physical or mental.
When Paws for Thought undertake a display a risk assessment is undertaken at every show prior to the display
to ensure the health, safety and wellbeing of both the handler and dog, during the course of extreme weather
regular assessments are made and advice given to the show organisers.
At the show in question a request was made to undertake only one display instead of two because of the heat,
but as this was a contractual agreement, after lengthy discussions with the show organisers, it was agreed to
provide two shorter displays.
In order to keep the dogs cool, “cool coats” were worn by most throughout the day and only removed
immediately prior to the display or when the dogs were taken to the local river and this occurred several times
during the day.
At no time were they placed in any danger as dogs and handlers are highly trained and loved too much.
As a team we welcome logical and constructive criticism and will also take on board reasoned comments and
constantly look at and change elements of the display. Much of what has been said has been said by people
who did not see the display in its entirety, which is known for its use of rescues and unwanted dogs along with a
light hearted humour commentary.
We have taken this very serious, and note what has been said and as always will look at the display content, the
use of controlled fire jumps is very popular and undertaken by most display teams and thoroughly loved by the
majority of the public and to this end we will leave the decisions on these allegations to the many thousands of
people who have enjoyed our displays for over 30 years. We will not enter into any dialogue whatsoever
concerning this statement
 
thanks for posting that 3beasties, good to hear they had measures in place and think their statement is fair and professional. Anyone who competes or uses animals for entertainment must be able to defend and justify what they are asking the animals at any time imo.

I personally think that fire hoops are an unnecessary gimmick mind you.
 
MotherOfChickens said:
I personally think that fire hoops are an unnecessary gimmick mind you.
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Which is absolutely fine. Not everyone will agree with training a dog to do that but having seen the video, I would hope that you agree that the dogs are keen to do it and are not stressed by it.
 
3Beasties said:
Which is absolutely fine. Not everyone will agree with training a dog to do that but having seen the video, I would hope that you agree that the dogs are keen to do it and are not stressed by it.
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most of the dogs. yes, we all have ideas as to whats acceptable, this was posted by way of discussion but I wouldn't want my dogs to be doing it on a day like that.
 
I do agree that in a way that it's shame the team (who appear to do a lot of good work) have had to defend themselves, but on the other hand, people are right to question if in any doubt. I'm sure any decent welfare organization would much rather have 100 false alarms than to miss 1 genuine case. Before reading their statement, i was going to say I'd expect a team doing a public display to be well aware of the fact any welfare issues are likely to be scrutinized. I was asked to do canicross/bikejor display recently at a rescue show & was very aware of the temperature (& humidity, which often makes the biggest difference) as we wouldn't normally work them at this time of year. I put numerous factors in place to ensure their welfare ... so for example, we did a relay instead of a run so each dog only ran a short distance, we had three water sprayers so the dogs were wet down before & after, they were well hydrated, everyone was under strict orders that if the dogs showed any sign of distress, they stopped, etc etc. We also sat the siberian huskies out & ran only the GSP's. If it hadn't been possible to do it safely, of course, i'd have said no.
 
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