groom beating up spoilt pony

amymay said:
I've hated the odd horse. Doesn't make me a bad person. Nor the poster to which this thread refers.

I'm not sure a whole thread aimed at slagging them off was really necessary.

I guess it must be a slow day on hho.
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Must say that I have also had to deal with horses that I've roundly hated, including my most successful competition horse! You don't have to love something, or baby it to death, to get a good tune out of it, but you won't get a good response from a horse if you abuse it - giving a horse a well-timed, well-deserved whack is not abuse, it is horse training, as is a well-timed, well-deserved reward.
 
Clodagh said:
If any horse of mine endangered someone I would expect them to discipline it. I work at a livery yard and peoples spoiled little darlings trying to flatten you on a regular basis is no fun. I think 'beating up' is a bit strong but I have certainly whacked them.
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I don't know the specific thread OP is referencing, but I agree with this. I don't work with horses, but if mine was messing someone around I wouldn't be at all offended if they gave it a whack (apart from on the face. I never have and never will smack a horse on its face, I have done my share of smacks on the neck though). My old loan horse was messingmy farrier around. He gave her one boot in the ribs and she behaved. She wasn't scared, and he was a fantastic farrier.

If we're talking about beating it until it's cowering in a corner covered in blood then that's a different thing.
 
I've just had a read through the other thread and my only comment is to those saying that the groom in the other thread was right but condemning the yard owner who beat the horse with a broom until it fell over might want to re read the other thread as it wasn't 'just a smack' the op on there actually says 'I lost my temper big style and whacked her a few times with a BROOM and threw a bucket at her' ......so is losing your temper and hitting with a broom okay as long as the horse in question stays upright?
 
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I don't think the horse really cares what is used, and a whip is actually much nastier than a plain stick (or broom, if you prefer). Beating horses to their knees is in a whole other league (see previous comments re irrational or sustained punishment).
 
I hope the originator of the previous thread doesn't get upset by this thread.

If my horse attacked one of my dogs I'd make sure he didn't do it again but that doesn't mean it's beating him up a smack and shout is the limit.

Although I had to give him a shout, then a whack THEN chase him banging on the bucket a few days back as he really pushed it. Two of the dominant horses have just left so it's all up in the air but he's been good as gold since.

I usually just have to growl Sat him but on rare occasions he needs more he's only young just gelded.
 
I have to deal with a horse I don't like. He belongs to my friend who I share the yard with. He is 17.2 and gets away with murder. He barges, he bites, he drags them around when they are trying to lead him etc. I do smack him. I was poo picking in the field and he came up behind me and grabbed my pony tail and then bit my shoulder. If my horses behaved like that for my friend then I would be happy for her to discipline them. Now he doesn't try to bite me or push me around but unfortunately as they do not insist on manners, he does to them. But he has learnt that I won't tolerate it.
 
Just in the interest of discussion has anyone used the old blue pipe on one of their horses? Would that be different from a well timed and deserved "whack" with a broom?
I cannot comment on the circumstances provoking this thread because a) I wasn't there so can't say if it was a discipline or beating and b) because luckily I have never had to more than give a horse a quick slap on the neck/shoulder with my hand (or a smack on the bum with a whip whilst ridden) to get them to stop acting the prat when needed. I have never come across a truly dangerous horse thankfully.
 
Copperpot said:
I have to deal with a horse I don't like. He belongs to my friend who I share the yard with. He is 17.2 and gets away with murder. He barges, he bites, he drags them around when they are trying to lead him etc. I do smack him. I was poo picking in the field and he came up behind me and grabbed my pony tail and then bit my shoulder. If my horses behaved like that for my friend then I would be happy for her to discipline them. Now he doesn't try to bite me or push me around but unfortunately as they do not insist on manners, he does to them. But he has learnt that I won't tolerate it.
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That right there is one thing that annoys me, people who let their horses get away with murder, let the manners go out the window, then expect others to have to deal with them.

If people want to mollycoddle their horses to the extent they have pig like manners, they should deal with them themselves where they can get barged, pulled, dragged, bitten and kicked til their hearts content.

I'm glad the horse now respects you, but I do believe that people should insist on basic manners especially when others are handling them.
 
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Gentlegiant88 said:
That right there is one thing that annoys me, people who let their horses get away with murder, let the manners go out the window, then expect others to have to deal with them.

If people want to mollycoddle their horses to the extent they have pig like manners, they should deal with them themselves where they can get barged, pulled, dragged, bitten and kicked til their hearts content.

I'm glad the horse now respects you, but I do believe that people should insist on basic manners especially when others are handling them.
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I completely agree. I know of a few horses/ponies that have zero manners and have literally launched themselves through me rather than around me to get out of the stable. Even when I then got them on a headcollar they tried their best to fling me about and couldn't give two hoots about hurting me.

Really really annoys me.
 
Moomin1 said:
I completely agree. I know of a few horses/ponies that have zero manners and have literally launched themselves through me rather than around me to get out of the stable. Even when I then got them on a headcollar they tried their best to fling me about and couldn't give two hoots about hurting me.

Really really annoys me.
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At the end of the day horses are extremely big, heavy and powerful animals. Without manners they can be extremely dangerous. Even the horse that drags you when leading can cause some damage.

Not trying to instil basic manners is just irresponsible and dangerous.
 
Agree with GentleGiant, perfect example tonight I was leading my yearling's back to the field from the yard. I didn't see the landlord's dog jump up at the wall from his yard as it was dark and behind us but of course both boys spooked. my ID kind of ran into me but stopped himself and stood waiting for instructions and reassurance. If I didn't keep on top of him he'd just fly over me without a second thought which would not end well...

A rude horse is a dangerous horse and its worrying how often people and other animals are hurt because a few let their horses be boss and mollycoddle. Grr
 
Jesus this place crazes me!!

On the first page I said this thread was about someone else and was mean spirtited

and then I re-wrote exactly what they had done to the pony in question.

sheesh you lot don't read things properly at all sometimes do you?! :p
 
I would never feel comfortable with anyone dealing with my horse if it had no manners, as I am responsible for that animal; exactly as I am responsible for how my dogs behave. My dogs cannot go around biting people any more than my horse can go around kicking.
I have had my boy from a yearling and he has had a tub trug thrown at him for trying to fly kick me in the field. I would expect anyone in the same situation to use what they had to hand to protect themselves and ensure the horse knows that behaviour is unacceptable.
Short sharp shock, not sustained abuse.
 
buddylove said:
I would never feel comfortable with anyone dealing with my horse if it had no manners, as I am responsible for that animal; exactly as I am responsible for how my dogs behave. My dogs cannot go around biting people any more than my horse can go around kicking.
I have had my boy from a yearling and he has had a tub trug thrown at him for trying to fly kick me in the field. I would expect anyone in the same situation to use what they had to hand to protect themselves and ensure the horse knows that behaviour is unacceptable.
Short sharp shock, not sustained abuse.
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This. There is a difference between one off and continually abuse
 
buddylove said:
I would never feel comfortable with anyone dealing with my horse if it had no manners, as I am responsible for that animal; exactly as I am responsible for how my dogs behave. My dogs cannot go around biting people any more than my horse can go around kicking.
I have had my boy from a yearling and he has had a tub trug thrown at him for trying to fly kick me in the field. I would expect anyone in the same situation to use what they had to hand to protect themselves and ensure the horse knows that behaviour is unacceptable.
Short sharp shock, not sustained abuse.
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I was re-filling the horses water a few weeks after they arrived in the field together. They got along, but still fought once in a while. As I was standing by the water, just after I'd finished filling the buckets, they started to fight, normally I wouldn't bother, but they almost ran me over!! They each got a water container launched at their back ends. Perfect bullseye!! They both stopped in their tracks and spun around to look at me. I wasn't about to stand around and find out if shouting or waving my arms would work, but I figured a water container each would stop them, as they make a loud bang even when hit lightly.

I do think on some occasions, a short, sharp hit with something, works a lot better than trying to calm them down.
Of course, a blip in their manners is always better to be ironed out with correct training (such as Ned not lifting his front legs - now sorted) but sometimes I find you just don't have the time as with the occasion above.
 
I think a lot of people namby pamby round horses for fear of hurting them, and they are not reprimanded for bad behaviour, which in turn will lead to a person being hurt.

Having been kicked by a horse (where I was within inches of having my knee shattered into smithereens), if a horse goes to raise a leg at me, they get a growl and I move out the way very fast.

My loan horse has a habit of waggling her legs in the air and pawing at the gate. First warning is a raised voice, second warning is squaring your shoulders at her and walking at her, third warning is slapping a whip against OUR boots for the sound effect. If she still does it, she gets a tap with the whip, not hard, but enough to remind her. She usually stops at the first warning. She got her foot stuck in the gate one day doing this, broke part of the gate and injured her leg, so it's in her best interest not to do it.

I work by the same principles with the horses, you ask them once, then you tell them and then they get a firm reminder. Another mare on the yard nigh on crushed me against the fence when I was picking out her feet because she moved into my space. I smacked her as hard as I could with my hand on her backside, and she moved so fast. She had a rug on, and it was the sound more than anything else, and my hand hurt after, but she moves over now with a simple click and a gentle nudge, so it worked!

I think there is a line between reprimanding them and abuse though. Abuse is intentionally hurting an animal, or reprimanding them once and then not stopping. I also think that people know when they have crossed the line,and if they continue their behaviour after this point, then shame on them.
 
Bought a SPOILT PONY that was hand reared....

When I was much younger the day after buying my daughters first pony (bought him after seeing him flying down the lane fully tacked up but having dumped rider so pretty though dun welsh pony) I was leaning on the stable door talking to other horse owners when he lunged over the door and literally took a piece out off the back of my upper arm (had stitches and permnant scar 19 years on) I had a feed bucket in my other hand and in one motion as an instinctive reaction i lashed out (to make him let go) and hit him over the head with the bucket!!

I have never hit a horse like this before or since but I have to say this pony 19 years on is still with me. he is now 23 and he has never ever bit any human ever again.....apparently before that incident he was a sod for doing it. Also he turned out to be the sweetest first pony for my daughter safe and sane to do pretty much anything with and my niece who is 6 now rides him in welsh and veteran classes.....
 
My mare (of 13 yrs) is now perfectly behaved and knows her boundaries, however she will take a telling off or a smack when she knows she is the wrong. However, if she thinks its unfair or unjust she will make it known!

Once I smacked her for nipping whilst rugging, walked round the other side to see it was all knotted up and that's why she had complained, when I walked behind her again she lifted a back leg and just caught me, couldn't really tell her off as she was just getting me back!

Mostly raised voice does the trick.
 
dianchi said:
My mare (of 13 yrs) is now perfectly behaved and knows her boundaries, however she will take a telling off or a smack when she knows she is the wrong. However, if she thinks its unfair or unjust she will make it known!

Once I smacked her for nipping whilst rugging, walked round the other side to see it was all knotted up and that's why she had complained, when I walked behind her again she lifted a back leg and just caught me, couldn't really tell her off as she was just getting me back!

Mostly raised voice does the trick.
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I'm sorry, but this reasoning is just insane: "getting you back"? "couldn't tell her off"? neither of these are rational. Horses do not plan to "get you back", they react. And you were 100% correct to whack the pony for biting, there is NEVER an occasion when it is OK for a horse (or dog/cat/person/goose/whatever) to bite you, or kick you. The thing about horses is that they have an escalating scale; first they'll try a little nip, then if they get away with that they'll up the ante and pretty soon you have a half-ton animal that has no regard for you at all and will feel free to bite, barge and kick with full force. It is fundamentally DANGEROUS for a horse to have no respect for a human, manners are essential.
 
sometimes its the person too....

I have had my Section D 17 years and FOR ME he is an angel dream to handle and do absolutely anything with however for my daughters, sister and his sharer he is amazing to ride but bargy and bolshy to handle....drags them to the field, wont load, pushs through them in doorways, wont stand to be hosed. I take the lead rope and he does a jekyll and hyde and changes back to an absolute sweetie. I never have to smack him or even raise my voice....I dont understand it they do nothing differently to me????

BTW all mine behave much better for me than the rest of my family and horsey friends and when i go in the field all of them follow me around....together.....
 
They probably have a different manner and body language to you. When I work with people and problematic horses, I try to impress upon them that merely mimicking the cue that I have explained to them isn't enough with most horses. You have to be calm, clear, and assertive in your demeanor and how you simply *are* around the horse. I have shown an owner that their horse will happily and lightly respond to a cue but when the owner asks, if they are waffley and defensive and fuzzy in their manner (usually without realising it), the horse often won't respond quite so easily. Horses are very sensitive to this sort of thing.
 
Jesstickle said:
... there is more than one way to skin a cat.
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'Ugly' often works, as does 'pleasing to the eye'. Sometimes 'ugly' is the only way; often it isn't.

RaynerK said:
I know someone who hates any kind of chastising/smacking/shouting.
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Well, I hate it too, because it is ugly. If I can see another way to get the same result I will choose it. However, I do acknowledge that ugly is necessary, sometimes. (Sorry to hear about your injury, RaynerK - it sounds horrendous!)

Gentlegiant88 said:
I think at the end of the day we need to remember that they are horses, they have a herd pecking order, and that they need to remember that you, their handler is in charge and not them.
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I agree with the first and the last bit. I don't think it has much to do with herd pecking order though. We're not horses and we don't have to pretend or act like we are the dominant mare to be in control or to teach respectful behaviour.

(I agree with everything else you wrote too!)
 
I used to have to handle a really naughty colt he tried to double barrel me in his stable and I threw a bucket of water over him. His owner was furious. He never did it to me again but did double barrel her in the chest and missed her child's head by inches
Sometimes its a matter of self preservation
 
fburton said:
I agree with the first and the last bit. I don't think it has much to do with herd pecking order though. We're not horses and we don't have to pretend or act like we are the dominant mare to be in control or to teach respectful behaviour.(I agree with everything else you wrote too!)
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I meant more in the sense that some horses, particulary dominant ones, will sometimes try and take control, and show you they're boss by flinging a leg at you, or biting you etc. I'm not saying that we should try and be the dominant mare, but that they need to learn that their handler is in control, and that they simply can't get away with being a prat.

On a side note I also think that horses should get used to being handled by different people, and importantly that they need to show the same respect to any handler.

I personally wouldn't be happy and choosing who she behaved for on the ground. If this was the case I'd be reconsidering her training, whilst ensuring those who do handle her were consistent with the way I with the situation.
 
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Jesstickle said:
Eb this post is really unfair on the originator of that thread frankly. If anyone ought to be ashamed it is you. Poor girl. No need to be vile to her, she is clearly doing her best.
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Totally agree! I will always take a softly softly approach with horses unless there is NO OTHER OPTION. In this case I would have said there was no other option, I flat out wouldn't have let it kill the cat, and if that involved bucket chucking, so be it!!!
 
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