Guess the % and cc on dressage test

[dafthoss]

Sorry but I think his off hind looks a bit off in all the videos you posted .

As for CC you need to look up and stop hunching your shoulders, have you tried kinseo (sp?) tape to make you more aware of the issue? I only ask as you seem to be doing it in all the pictures you post despite saying your trying really hard not to.

I know how hard it is with some thing thats not naturally the sharpest off the leg but I'd say drop the spurs as you seem to be nudging him every stride which as others have said will make him more dead. I've started hacking mine with no whip or spurs as he's a cleaver little monster and knows when your carrying the whip and its making a diffrence to him.

 

[rowy]

Sorry but I think his off hind looks a bit off in all the videos you posted .

As for CC you need to look up and stop hunching your shoulders, have you tried kinseo (sp?) tape to make you more aware of the issue? I only ask as you seem to be doing it in all the pictures you post despite saying your trying really hard not to.

I know how hard it is with some thing thats not naturally the sharpest off the leg but I'd say drop the spurs as you seem to be nudging him every stride which as others have said will make him more dead. I've started hacking mine with no whip or spurs as he's a cleaver little monster and knows when your carrying the whip and its making a diffrence to him.

I have stopped looking down when I ride different horses and in some of the more recent pics and I don't when I do sitting trot. My position as a whole is so much better when I do sitting trot.
I don't wear spurs when I hack or jump/ pole work. He is really forward when I jump and when I go for a canter/ gallop around the field.
I also do "schooling" when I am hacking around the field without my spurs and with the change in environment he is much more forward and responsive.

 

[only_me]

Just a quick view, but I think he's going very nicely and has come on a lot!

From watching the first few mins, on the first vid, I don't think he is lame but he does appear to be short stepping and not working as through in his off hind. It could be because he might be a little stiff or tense? I would try doing some stretches with him on the ground, and maybe mixing his up his work with more work in straight lines?
It could be as simple as he's still growing and developing his movement; if he develops muscle too quickly it could prevent him moving as freely

 

[pinktiger]

Awww he is lovely and really tries,, he looks consistent in front, so in head n neck etc!!!! However I wonder if this is where he is struggling in that he is unbalanced and is falling out in swing or tension from the engine department!!! The whole frame needs lifting and powering from behind!!! There seems to be a alot of concentration in front and the back end is left incorrect and unbalanced all of which you can fully understand being that he/she is five!!! Needs to be more confident to go forward and power himself!!!! Imagine you are one complete elastic band and that works harmoniously to keep the energy in the band???

Ps he's a baby could be I level due to bridle lameness and I think until he's going more correctly if there is any true physical reason for it possibly could be hard to detect!!!

 

[MissTyc]

I had a youngster that moved very similarly (also Welsh cross) and have to admit it turned out to be a bit of rider error in his development. He was so willing and I think I overcontained the front (unintentionally). I think your long and low exercise video somewhat hints at a similar issue - he's really quite stiff throughout. I would be tempted to forget about the front for a bit, esp, as he has nice natural carriage and really work on forwards, forwards, forwards in his own frame - lots of give and retake of the reins, lots of stretching trot and canter on a long rein, paying utmost attention to the balance and rhythm when you pick him back up, etc.

For lameness, I am not qualified to comment. It's certainly not the first thing I though, but I was reminded of my growing boy very muchly! Stifles can be sticky when they're bum high as well ...

 

[kellybrown11]

Hi, i agree he does look not right behind and would get it invetsigated especially if you are jumping etc.

You do seem to be using your leg an awful lot (its like you are kicking with every stride and it is a kick rather than squeeze) and i would hope you wouldnt use spurs when out hacking as there shouldnt really be a need. I agree with another posting about getting a good instructor.

Do lots of transitions in the pace as well, plus move him about a lot more in the neck he looks a bit fixed and not like there is a lot of movement.

He is a lovely boy though and i need to be brave like you and put a posting up on here about my boy who is young and lazy, but just remember the louder your aid the more he will switch off. A horse can feel a fly land and that is how he should be off your leg.

 

[karen_c]

No dressage expert here either - very much a learner! But would agree with the judge that off hind isn't right - I noticed it most as he trotted away from camera on the left rein.

He has a lovely canter and seemingly a willing attitude.

I really liked his canter too - looks very nice

When you have sorted the soundness out and with the greatest of respect, I would put the schooling whip and spurs aside and find a really good teacher to teach the little chap to be moving forwards with the lightest of aids.

You will find the more you thump, shove and push the more a horse will sit behind the leg and become numb to the aids.

Your lower leg kicking away is probably a mixture of habit and him not being infront of the leg then becoming a vicious circle as he will now be ignoring your leg as you are essentially nagging him every stride. You need to give one quiet aid asking for a reaction, if it is not immediate you give a bigger aid and so on but only one aid at a time bring back each time. Once you have the reaction you reward and repeat until you literally ask once quietly and you get the reaction required. A very wise horsewoman told me once you have asked (say for trot) you shouldn't have to ask again until you wish to change whether within the pace or between them.

Agree with both of the above re aiming for a response to the lightest of aids and the fact that the more you shove and kick the more numb he becomes to it - I can sympathise, my boy is similar and I ended up in the situation of escalating use of leg/whip then introduction of spurs but a few sessions with new classical dressage trainer working on my posture and position and lots of transitions is working wonders for us...he is so much more responsive, it's made a huge difference for us

 

[charlie76]

Ok, honestly, he is not sound behind. He looks unlevel bil laterally which is why it looks stiff rather that lame as when you just have a single hind leg lameness it becomes more obvious when comparing with the sound one.
Until you find out why he is unlevel behind you are never going to have him forward and in front of your leg, his way of telling you he is not happy is to be lazy, this is because he doesn't have the flexion in his hind legs to propel him forward. He is a nice little horse that is worth spending the time finding out what is causing the hind leg lameness, from the vids I would say hocks as he is very straight in his action behind. It's almost a skipping action rather than a propelling hind leg action. Have a look at some vids of other horses moving from behind and you will see it.
I imagine he is pretty easy to sit to in sitting trot as the hind legs aren't producing the spring that they should be.

 

[rowy]

Just a quick view, but I think he's going very nicely and has come on a lot!

From watching the first few mins, on the first vid, I don't think he is lame but he does appear to be short stepping and not working as through in his off hind. It could be because he might be a little stiff or tense? I would try doing some stretches with him on the ground, and maybe mixing his up his work with more work in straight lines?
It could be as simple as he's still growing and developing his movement; if he develops muscle too quickly it could prevent him moving as freely

This makes sense I tend to stay on a circle for initial warm up stretching work. I have to admit- the newest video I did was not the best because he was a bit tense because a man was walking across the farmers field with his dog and he found this intensely interesting (lol if you had the sound on you would hear me keep saying "concentrate" ) After this I did canter stretchy work and then some shoulder in work with small circles and then pushing him on through from behind.
He is still growing, I think he will be a late developer. I took some pics today of him in the snow and im sure he is bum high again *sigh*
Thankyou for your advice

Awww he is lovely and really tries,, he looks consistent in front, so in head n neck etc!!!! However I wonder if this is where he is struggling in that he is unbalanced and is falling out in swing or tension from the engine department!!! The whole frame needs lifting and powering from behind!!! There seems to be a alot of concentration in front and the back end is left incorrect and unbalanced all of which you can fully understand being that he/she is five!!! Needs to be more confident to go forward and power himself!!!! Imagine you are one complete elastic band and that works harmoniously to keep the energy in the band???

Ps he's a baby could be I level due to bridle lameness and I think until he's going more correctly if there is any true physical reason for it possibly could be hard to detect!!!

This definitely makes a lot of sense! When he is going truly forwards and swinging along at the end of the session he is always so much more consistent in the contact. I think everyone is right that I have to go back a step and get him going more forwards straight away! I find it difficult as my other mare is so forward going I have to not have my legs on at all so when I get on him its a totally different feeling!
Thankyou for taking the time to comment and will definitely think of this next time I ride (when the snow melts eventually lol!)

I had a youngster that moved very similarly (also Welsh cross) and have to admit it turned out to be a bit of rider error in his development. He was so willing and I think I overcontained the front (unintentionally). I think your long and low exercise video somewhat hints at a similar issue - he's really quite stiff throughout. I would be tempted to forget about the front for a bit, esp, as he has nice natural carriage and really work on forwards, forwards, forwards in his own frame - lots of give and retake of the reins, lots of stretching trot and canter on a long rein, paying utmost attention to the balance and rhythm when you pick him back up, etc.

For lameness, I am not qualified to comment. It's certainly not the first thing I though, but I was reminded of my growing boy very muchly! Stifles can be sticky when they're bum high as well ...

I definitely agree with everything you have said I don't think he does properly work through yet. Because he is built so bum heavy and has been bum high for a lot of the time he has been backed, he almost has too much power he doesn't know what to do with it! He is starting to learn more now though. In my last lesson he was swinging through soooo much better in the medium trots and his leg yield and shoulder in are tonnes more consistent.
The thing that annoys me is that he loses concentration so much! I think he finds school work a bit boring!

 

[rowy]

Hi, i agree he does look not right behind and would get it invetsigated especially if you are jumping etc.

You do seem to be using your leg an awful lot (its like you are kicking with every stride and it is a kick rather than squeeze) and i would hope you wouldnt use spurs when out hacking as there shouldnt really be a need. I agree with another posting about getting a good instructor.

Do lots of transitions in the pace as well, plus move him about a lot more in the neck he looks a bit fixed and not like there is a lot of movement.

He is a lovely boy though and i need to be brave like you and put a posting up on here about my boy who is young and lazy, but just remember the louder your aid the more he will switch off. A horse can feel a fly land and that is how he should be off your leg.

Hi, thanks for your reply.
I don't really jump him much. I think since I have backed him, I have jumped him about 12 times? And each time I literally do about 4-6 jumps and then leave it and biggest I have jumped is about 2ft3. I do more pole/ cavalletti work with him to get him to work more over his back and pushing through from behind.
I did notice that I am kicking a lot. I looked at a video from when i was riding later on (I havent posted or uploaded to youtube as its a really long video) and I am not kicking hardly at all. But I have to do this all the way through- i have to stop myself from nagging him at the beginning and need to wake him up straight away!
Thanks for you advice and CC and lol beginning to wish I hadn's as sooo much conflicting advice and makes me worry about him as he is so special to me

No dressage expert here either - very much a learner! But would agree with the judge that off hind isn't right - I noticed it most as he trotted away from camera on the left rein.
I really liked his canter too - looks very nice
Agree with both of the above re aiming for a response to the lightest of aids and the fact that the more you shove and kick the more numb he becomes to it - I can sympathise, my boy is similar and I ended up in the situation of escalating use of leg/whip then introduction of spurs but a few sessions with new classical dressage trainer working on my posture and position and lots of transitions is working wonders for us...he is so much more responsive, it's made a huge difference for us

Thanks Your classical dressage trainer sounds fab

Ok, honestly, he is not sound behind. He looks unlevel bil laterally which is why it looks stiff rather that lame as when you just have a single hind leg lameness it becomes more obvious when comparing with the sound one.
Until you find out why he is unlevel behind you are never going to have him forward and in front of your leg, his way of telling you he is not happy is to be lazy, this is because he doesn't have the flexion in his hind legs to propel him forward. He is a nice little horse that is worth spending the time finding out what is causing the hind leg lameness, from the vids I would say hocks as he is very straight in his action behind. It's almost a skipping action rather than a propelling hind leg action. Have a look at some vids of other horses moving from behind and you will see it.
I imagine he is pretty easy to sit to in sitting trot as the hind legs aren't producing the spring that they should be.

If this is the case then he has been lame ever since I have bought him as a unbacked 2 year old (and had him vetted). He has always been lazy. He was even more lazy when I initially backed him (as a 3 year old). gave him 7 months off to chill and grow and he came back much more forward (as a 4 year old) but still not really forward. Some days he is mega mega sharp. The day my mum was filming he was having a lazy i can't be bothered day (I can sympathise with that as I am the same )
With the action- he has been like that behind since forever. If you look at my youtube page there is a video of him after just being backed with me on him. To be fair, he is moving a lot freer in that video because he is the perfect weight. I can see he is overweight in the first video I posted (not quite as overweight in the second) so that would be why he is moving a bit more like a duck lol.
But thankyou for your time in replying and watching the videos

 

[Tr0uble]

Ok I'm a long way from being expert but here's how I see it...

I don't see lameness, I see a tight back and that is translating to unlevel/stuffy steps behind. Hes not yet developed the strength to carry himself, and you are 1. Rushing him forwards and mistaking speed for forwardness. And 2. Tipping forward yourself and loading his front end more.

Vicious circle as he then gets tighter in the back.

Sit up. Slow him down. Work on his core and overall suppleness before you start asking for actual medium steps. Move him around laterally in walk amd trot (I mean his rib cage and neck rather than 'lateral work')

Rhythm is the same, I have to get submission before I can put in power, but I have to supple him before I can get submission, I have to slow him to get the suppleness, once I have the suppleness I can move him around in the gait, then we get submission, then he starts to sit, then we can put some power in, then he carries me forward, then he's off my leg and nicely in my hand....

 

[rowy]

Ok I'm a long way from being expert but here's how I see it...

I don't see lameness, I see a tight back and that is translating to unlevel/stuffy steps behind. Hes not yet developed the strength to carry himself, and you are 1. Rushing him forwards and mistaking speed for forwardness. And 2. Tipping forward yourself and loading his front end more.

Vicious circle as he then gets tighter in the back.

Sit up. Slow him down. Work on his core and overall suppleness before you start asking for actual medium steps. Move him around laterally in walk amd trot (I mean his rib cage and neck rather than 'lateral work')

Rhythm is the same, I have to get submission before I can put in power, but I have to supple him before I can get submission, I have to slow him to get the suppleness, once I have the suppleness I can move him around in the gait, then we get submission, then he starts to sit, then we can put some power in, then he carries me forward, then he's off my leg and nicely in my hand....

Thanks for your advice and I think you are right! I do tend to rush him forwards because my other mare is so forwards, when I sit on him it feels so slow in comparison!
He does struggle with bending to the right which is definitely something we need to work on! and then on the left he bends too much! so doing straightness and suppling exercises will help!
Will take it back a step when I next ride him and see where we get too

 

[Bantry]

Did you try what the judge suggested at the end? If you don't have wet sand you could do it in the snow, even in-hand. Trot him up in a straight line and see where the prints of his hinds are. Is one way off?

I've nothing to add thats already been said, well done for being mature and accepting all comments. Your positive attitude can only benefit your horse and your riding

 

[siennamum]

I also think he is lame. I think he is swinging his hind legs to avoid flexing his hocks in the way a horse with hock changes or an achilles problem will. I would get a vet workup done, with a vet who is good on gait analysis. He is on 3 tracks at all times depending on which rein he is on and not because he is stepping in and under his body. He is really dropping his hip also.
If it were just that he were running onto the forehand and struggling with his back legs overtaking his front he would be more likely to be wide behind ime.
It could just be that he needs a break. My youngster was similarly shaped to yours and hurt his sacro illiac in the field as a 4 year old, 6 months of minimal work/rest as he is fine now.
Worth sorting now rather than allowing to escalate imo

 

[rowy]

Did you try what the judge suggested at the end? If you don't have wet sand you could do it in the snow, even in-hand. Trot him up in a straight line and see where the prints of his hinds are. Is one way off?

I've nothing to add thats already been said, well done for being mature and accepting all comments. Your positive attitude can only benefit your horse and your riding

No I forgot she said that but that is a great idea! I will try it as we have a field with untouched deep snow (6 inches) so should work well!

 

[Santa_Claus]

No I forgot she said that but that is a great idea! I will try it as we have a field with untouched deep snow (6 inches) so should work well!

6" is too deep to work in the circumstances and to trot through snow that deep is actually exceptionally hard work. Try walking through it yourself and note how quickly you tire

For the purposes of above the snow should at most be 1-2" deep

 

[rowy]

I also think he is lame. I think he is swinging his hind legs to avoid flexing his hocks in the way a horse with hock changes or an achilles problem will. I would get a vet workup done, with a vet who is good on gait analysis. He is on 3 tracks at all times depending on which rein he is on and not because he is stepping in and under his body. He is really dropping his hip also.
If it were just that he were running onto the forehand and struggling with his back legs overtaking his front he would be more likely to be wide behind ime.
It could just be that he needs a break. My youngster was similarly shaped to yours and hurt his sacro illiac in the field as a 4 year old, 6 months of minimal work/rest as he is fine now.
Worth sorting now rather than allowing to escalate imo

Really? Because I have had physio and instructer (and I have also looked at him myself after I got judges comments) trot up in a straight line and he moves completely straight. In fact physio commented on how straight he moves as a lot of horses dish/ move too close behind etc. Like my tb almost kicks herself everytime she walks behind as her legs are so close at the bottom! Will have a look again for myself and try and see if I can see what you are seeing next time I lunge.

6" is too deep to work in the circumstances and to trot through snow that deep is actually exceptionally hard work. Try walking through it yourself and note how quickly you tire

For the purposes of above the snow should at most be 1-2" deep

Haha ah ok will have to wait till it melts a bit then

Turned him out in the school today and he has had a week off cos of the snow and he has grown bum high again!!! He definitely has the late welshy growing gene. He even has gone all gangly again:

 

[tricksibell85]

<Sigh>
Rowy - u kno ur horse, and u should know if he feels off or not right.
I wld be going on ur physio and instructors advice and foremost - not a forums when everythin is based on a few you tube videos.

 

[TheMule]

His conformation certainly won't be helping at the moment, is he going through a growth spurt? I'd be inclined to back right off him whilst he looks like this and consider either just hacking or turning him away for 3 months.

 

[rowy]

His conformation certainly won't be helping at the moment, is he going through a growth spurt? I'd be inclined to back right off him whilst he looks like this and consider either just hacking or turning him away for 3 months.

He has literally in the last few days shot up behind as he was looking really even last time I schooled him!
I do usually give him 2-4 weeks off when the snow is around anyway so will see what he looks like when the snow has gone but won't be pressurizing him in the school with him like this. He won't let me anyway

 

[ihatework]

<sigh>
Sometimes we are to close to things, sometimes we don't want to hear things

I'm not saying this is necessarily the case, but I'd the horse were mine he'd be getting a basic vet check done, just to cross it off the list

 

[Daytona]

Rowy

I went through a similar thing resently with people thinking my 5 year gangly horse was not right, various people looked and could not put finger on it exact but felt he defo did not look right, gave him 3 weeks off they seen no improvement.

To make it worse I could not see anything wrong with him, I started to get really worried and upset at the thought my baby was broken.

I was been told different advice all the whole he was off work , in the end I was like sack this I'm getting the vet.

I needed to know for sure even though I could not see it.

Anyway vet came done work up and told me......

Your horse is 110% sound and if I'd just vetted him he would of past with flying colours..!!

I was delighted , anyway my mind was at rest and I could get back on with his program knowing he defo ok.

Cost me £90 but worth it for my own piece of mind.

If I was you if get your vet out to put your mind at rest as I think you will keep worrying he not right. And tbh a vet is who can give you real confidence not a saddler or Physo.

Anyhow that's my recent experience. Hope your lad is ok too xx

 

[Leg_end]

*Hops on the bandwagon*

I'm sorry but he is definitely unlevel.

You know your horse best but you obviously had your doubts otherwise you wouldn't have posted about it.

You've had some very experienced people tell you he's not right, have another look, be totally objective and if you think he looks right on the video then I'd be v surprised.

If he was mine I'd do a bute trial.. It's cheap and you'll see results PDQ if it is pain related, then you can investigate if there is a positive result for pain.

 

[Daytona]

Meant to say instructor not Physo.

 

[rowy]

<sigh>
Sometimes we are to close to things, sometimes we don't want to hear things

I'm not saying this is necessarily the case, but I'd the horse were mine he'd be getting a basic vet check done, just to cross it off the list

You can see the problem I am having through- half the people who have commented on here as well as professionals, including a list 1 judge, who look after my horse's health and have seen him in the flesh have said its a baby schooling/ balance issue (when bearing in mind his conformation, age and breeding totally makes sense).
and the other half people who have commented on here and 1 judge (out of probably about 20 in the last 2 years) have suggested there might be a lameness- several of which have identified different lameness issues with conflicting opinions and many of which said it was the near hind that was lame until I said the judge said it was the off hind.

Surely, even if I were to get the vet out, his lameness is so so slight that the vet wouldn't really be able to do anything about it. I mean x rays might be worth doing as if I had them done say every year, or then again if he gets worse to compare, we would know what we were looking at. Say one of the stifle, hock and fetlock.

I am definitely open minded and will definitely have a look at Rowan myself, get my instructer to have a look next time I have a lesson and physio is due out in march. The dentist is coming out end of this month. He has only just had a saddle check so thats all fine. I have been on wild goose chases before when people said my other mare had ulcers so that is a reason why I am being slightly reluctant now. Not everyone has money they can just throw away.

 

[charlie76]

From your reply you obviously think that he us perfectly ok. When you watch him from behind in the video he swings his back legs rather than flexing his hocks.
Whether he has been lazy from day one or not, the way he is moving behind is not right. I only watched the first few movements of the test and could see it.
Most of the replies in here say the same as well as the judge.
for peace of mind, get him checked by a vet

 

[charlie76]

To add, show the vet the vid, they will see it. Also make sure the vet sees him under saddle as our horse looked fine trotted up, under saddle he looked awful.

 

[charlie76]

Finally, I think the reason you have different opinions on which leg is the issue is because its bi lateral

 

[MillionDollar]

If he were mine I would be 100% be getting a lameness work up done, with a vet specialised in lameness. Having gone through the whole is he lame/isn't he myself, I wish I had got the lameness work up done earlier than I eventually did!

 

[ihatework]

I might regret this but here goes ...

This horse was at a similar age as yours (with a known mild left stringhalt)

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mMu8_oroU5g

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FodcvMIx2-8

He hadn't been pulled up by a judge and he'd 'passed' basic flexions with the vet and nothing picked up by Osteo. He was behind the leg and I was constantly niggling, he was bracing on the contact. Trainer and I were in continual evaluation as to why.

I felt very uncomfortable that I was missing something. There were some significant veterinary findings 4 months later after he had continued to work ..